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It's a plane? It's a bird?... No it's a T |
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 Topic: It's a plane? It's a bird?... No it's a TPosted: 25-Feb-2007 at 07:25 |
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Turks are a ethnic group.But Heavily mixed.
right definition of a Turk is "who speak Turkish and culturally Turk,feel himself Turk and have Turk blood".
They cosidered as Turks but this list is the greatest empires.There more than 16 empire.I think this number is more than 50 =).
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Spartakus
Tsar 
terörist Joined: 22-Nov-2004 Location: Greece/Hellas Online Status: Offline Posts: 4489 |
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Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 15:25 |
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There is a difference between a Turkic man and a Turk.Turks are,among the rest, of Turkic origin,but not all Turkic populations are actually Turks.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
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Antioxos
Consul 
Joined: 26-Apr-2006 Location: Hellas Online Status: Offline Posts: 340 |
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Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 15:44 |
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Has the Turk blood another color?  |
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Bulldog
Caliph 
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
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Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 15:58 |
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Spartakus
There is a difference between a Turkic man and a Turk.Turks are,among the rest, of Turkic origin,but not all Turkic populations are actually Turks.
Im sorry but that's just unacceptable, its like saying Greeks are among Hellenic people but not all Hellenic people are Greek, the two are intertwined
 Turkic as a word or concept doesn't exist in Turkic, your a Turk. Turk's of Turkey are Turks because their national root ie language, history, identity, culture etc is Turk. Are Turks in Bulgaria or Azerbaycan or Cyprus etc Turkic? thus not allowed to call themselves Turks.
This whole idea that "Turkiye" has a monopoly over what is Turk and who is a Turk is nonsense. If an Uygur Turk from Xinjian/Eastern Turkistan identifies him/herself as a Turk how can anybody say now your not, your Turkic only people in Turkey can be Turks when the reason people in Turkey are Turks is because they migrated from those lands and spread their language, identity and culture.
A Turk from outside Turkiye has every right to call him/herself a Turk Edited by Bulldog - 25-Feb-2007 at 15:59 |
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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Kerimoglu
Consul
Joined: 05-Oct-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 313 |
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Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 23:43 |
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We call ourselver Azerbaijani Turks, or othervise, Turks living in Azerbaijan. BTW, theer is also empire of Turks called Saffavid, but it was turkish only From Ismail till Shah Abbas, then it became Persian.
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History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow!
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Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 00:23 |
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I mean ethnicly Turk.
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Antioxos
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Joined: 26-Apr-2006 Location: Hellas Online Status: Offline Posts: 340 |
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Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 09:00 |
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Maharbbal
Sultan 
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 08-Mar-2006 Location: Paris Online Status: Offline Posts: 2120 |
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Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 10:03 |
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Antioxos
No point to pretend you don't understand that talking about "blood" is merely an image and that nobody in this forum argues that the Turks have a special type of blood (smelling like mezze as oppose to the Greeks' which taste like stastiki). Lets avoid any pointless argument. Right? Buldog Your clame is interesting. That said nowadays (we don't live in the steppes riding horses no more) making a distinction between Turk and Turkic is helpful. Considering that all national Turks are not Turkic, but bearing in mind that all Turkic are not Turks. So you end up with: Ethnically Turkic people living in Turkey. Lets call them Turks. Ethnically Turkic people originally from Turkey but living abroad. Lets call them German Turks or Turkish German, for example. Ethnically arab (for instance) people living in Turkey. Lets call them Arab Turks. Ethnically arab people born and bred in Turkey but now living elsewhere. Lets not call them at all it just becomes too difficult. Ethnically Turkic, with no familly connections with Turkey. Lets call them Oighur for instance or Turkic Chinese. Ethnically Turkic, born and bred outside Turkey but no living there. Lets call them Oighur Turks, or Chinese Turks or Turkic Chinese Turks. I assume that in turkic languages there is no distinction made between Turk and Turkic. But we are in a English forum so lets try to be clear to English speakers. Secondly, this ridiculous taxinomia of mine, just proves the absurdity of wanting to fit people in categories... I personally fail to see the interest (if not purely historical, scientific if you want) of remembering thousand(s) years old connexions between people. Zionists did see the interest, you can see the mess it gave us! |
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I am a free donkey!
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Bulldog
Caliph
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
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Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 10:31 |
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It's really not difficult.
There is the Arab world, majority of people are Arabs, are they genetically, culturally, historically all identical? No. However, they are all still Arabs, nobody can say no your Syrian, Syrians arn't Arabs, you can't call yourself an Arab only Arabicic.
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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Spartakus
Tsar
terörist Joined: 22-Nov-2004 Location: Greece/Hellas Online Status: Offline Posts: 4489 |
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Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 12:48 |
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Your comparison is totally wrong.Hellen or Greek are the same things.They do not have to do with origin,but with language.Simply,Greek derives from Latin,but Hellen from Hellenic and Yunan from Persian etc.
Hellens belong to the Indo-European family,but not all Indo-Europeans are ,of course,Hellens.The same for the steppe nomads.Bulgars,Kushans,Kumans,Magyars,Avars,Petchengs,Huns etc belong to the same family with the Selcuks and Ottomans,the Turkic family.But they are not Turks.Turk is an offshoot of the larger Turkic family.All people belong to larger families.
Maybe it's a language problem.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
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Maharbbal
Sultan
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 08-Mar-2006 Location: Paris Online Status: Offline Posts: 2120 |
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Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 21:25 |
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Don't try to pretend you don't understand: there is no arab passport. If somebody tells me "I'm an Arab" I don't know if he's Algerian, Syrian or French or whatever else. Arab is a generic term. Turk is much more specific. There is such a thing as a Turkish passport. Example: I could say for instence: Arabs were expeled from this farm in 1948. Everybody understands I'm talking about Palestinians. If I say: Turks formed over 25% of AlQaeda troops in Afghanistan, nobody'd get that I'm talking about Oighurs and not about Turkish citizen born in Anatolia. Language is something people agree upon, like it or not the use of the word Turk for non-turkish citizens/descendents is archac and anachronical. A bit as if I was calling the Italian, the members of the Etrusco-Samitian confederation. Edited by Maharbbal - 26-Feb-2007 at 21:26 |
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I am a free donkey!
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Bulldog
Caliph
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
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Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 12:52 |
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Spartakus
Hellens belong to the Indo-European family,but not all Indo-Europeans are ,of course,Hellens.
There are Cypriot Greeks, Cretan Greeks, Pontus Greeks, Levantine Greeks, Mainland Greeks etc shall we now start saying that they're different "ethnic" groups.
Marhabbal
Don't try to pretend you don't understand: there is no arab passport. If somebody tells me "I'm an Arab" I don't know if he's Algerian, Syrian or French or whatever else. Arab is a generic term
Saudi Arabian passport, United Arab Emirates passport, they're Arab by passport.
A Syrian can call him/herself a Syrian, a Syrian Arab or simply an Arab if he/she wishes.
You don't have to be from "Turkiye" to be a Turk it's that simple, nothing to get into a fuss about.
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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Spartakus
Tsar
terörist Joined: 22-Nov-2004 Location: Greece/Hellas Online Status: Offline Posts: 4489 |
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Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 14:42 |
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There are Cypriot Greeks, Cretan Greeks, Pontus Greeks, Levantine Greeks, Mainland Greeks etc shall we now start saying that they're different "ethnic" groups.
You continue to make the same mistake.The equivalent,when we talk about Hellas and Hellens, of the relationship Turk-Turkic is that of Hellen-Indoeuropean. Edited by Spartakus - 27-Feb-2007 at 14:42 |
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
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Onogur
Janissary 
Joined: 18-Feb-2007 Location: Bulgaria Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 |
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Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 15:45 |
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Spartakus, except for the language similarities, what else makes the nowdays Greeks descendents of the Hellens?! If it is the language, then Romanians should be Romans! If it is the territory of nowdays Greece, beieng a part of the Hellenian territory then Turkey, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Italy, etc. can be considered Hellenian descendents too.
I am asking this, because as I can see you are from Greece, and I hope you can explain it to me. It is very confusing. First, there were Thracian, Celtic and Illirian tribes all over the peninsula. Then, there were several waves of migrations into the Balkans. After that there were the Hellenic polises, which were never one country. There were even huge differences between some of them. Of course they formed alliances several times in their history... but this is still not one country. After that, Macedonians take over almost all polises for a little while. There was one country that time, but it was Macedonia, not Hellenia, for example. Then the Romans conquered the whole peninsula and devided it in several provinces. Centuries after that the capitol of the Roman Empire was moved to Constantinopol or Byzantion (which was an ancient thracian town as I know), and when the Empire divided into Western and Eastern, both parts were still Roman. So, the Byzantine empire is pretty much the Roman empire. In few centuries the Hellenian language was adopted by the Byzantine empire, as it was the merchant language in the Empire during the previous centuries (I am not sure about this, but this is the only explanation I know). Then, in several centuries, the Ottomans came and wiped out the Balkans. And only in 19th century on the map appears a country named Greece, that pretends to be a descendent of those Hellenic polises and culture that existed 2 milleniums before that. Moreover, I have heart some explanations that the Byzantine Empire is Greek.
Please, Spartakus, give me your point of view, because the more I am trying to explain it to myself - more confused I become. Thank you.
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Spartakus
Tsar
terörist Joined: 22-Nov-2004 Location: Greece/Hellas Online Status: Offline Posts: 4489 |
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Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 16:01 |
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Your question is way too complex and needs a good discussion.Make a question in the Questions subforum,because here this subforum is dedicated to the Steppes and the Steppe people,so discussing about Hellens here will be quite irrelevant.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
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Bulldog
Caliph
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
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Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 16:32 |
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Spartakus
You continue to make the same mistake.The equivalent,when we talk about Hellas and Hellens, of the relationship Turk-Turkic is that of Hellen-Indoeuropean.
No it's not, Indo-European languages arn't just Hellenic.
Do Cypriot, Cretan, Potus etc Greeks not have different accents or dialect?
Greek spoken in the above places are Greek are they not.
Turkic languages are just Turkic.
Good post Onogur!
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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Maharbbal
Sultan
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 08-Mar-2006 Location: Paris Online Status: Offline Posts: 2120 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 16:44 |
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I'm not saying they're not I'm saying it is misleading to say so. In French for instance there is no difference between Turk and Turkic and it's always a bit difficult to understand what people are talking about. English language is rich, lets use it for clarity sake. Besides, there is some kind of political agenda in saying that everybody's Turk. Pan-turkism is very much alive isn't it. Arguably, saying Turkic has the inverse political agenda, but I don't know any anti-pan-turkish current around here, so... Concerning the Arab your argument makes as much sense as saying there is such a thing as an nation called Africa because there are a Central Africa Republic and South Africa... You love pointless contreversy don't you? |
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I am a free donkey!
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Spartakus
Tsar
terörist Joined: 22-Nov-2004 Location: Greece/Hellas Online Status: Offline Posts: 4489 |
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Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 16:59 |
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No it's not, Indo-European languages arn't just Hellenic.
We are basically saying the same thing,but for one reason you seem not to understand.I said about 2 or 3 times that Hellens belong to the Indo-European family ,but not all Indo-europeans are,of course, Hellens.The same for the languages.
Do Cypriot, Cretan, Potus etc Greeks not have different accents or dialect?
They are different branches of Hellens,who all,partialy since no one is "pure" anymore ,belong to the greater Indo-European family.Nothing strange here.It's like saying Kapadocian Turks or Western Asia Minor Turks or Turks of Anatolia or Turks of central Turkey etc.
Greek spoken in the above places are Greek are they not.
A nation and culture is not only defined by it's language.
Turkic languages are just Turkic.
Yes,but Turkish belong the greater family of Turkic,Uro-Altaic languages . |
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Bulldog
Caliph
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
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Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 17:00 |
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Marhabbal
Besides, there is some kind of political agenda in saying that everybody's Turk. Pan-turkism is very much alive isn't it. Arguably, saying Turkic has the inverse political agenda, but I don't know any anti-pan-turkish current around here, so...
I don't understand how calling Turks, Turks is Pan-Turkism? besides there are 6 Turkic states, if they co-operate and boost ties is this Pan-Turkism or just independant countries doing what's in their interests.
Maybe your confusing Pan-Turanism which I agree is a pretty ridiculous and un-reliastic proposal.
You can say Turkic or Turk it doesn't matter, Turk is Turkic anyway.
Concerning the Arab your argument makes as much sense as saying there is such a thing as an nation called Africa because there are a Central Africa Republic and South Africa... No, Arabs speak Arabic and have an Arab identity to some degree, South and Central African Republic Africans don't.
Spartukus
A nation and culture is not only defined by it's language.
True but a nation is not a nation without a language, a nation without a language is a dead and soon to be extinct nation.
Spartukus
Yes,but Turkish belong the greater family of Turkic,Uro-Altaic languages .
Finnish is Ugric but a Turkic speaker can't understand much at all.
While Turkic speakers have a relative degree of mutual intellegibility. Edited by Bulldog - 27-Feb-2007 at 17:10 |
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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Spartakus
Tsar
terörist Joined: 22-Nov-2004 Location: Greece/Hellas Online Status: Offline Posts: 4489 |
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Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 13:25 |
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True but a nation is not a nation without a language, a nation without a language is a dead and soon to be extinct nation.
Language is a vital part for a nation,but not the basic criterium for qualifying a specific population into a specific nation.Just because the majority of Asia Minor Hellens were speaking Turkish,this does not make them Turkish.Just because some Bulgarians speak Hellenic,this does not mean that they are Hellens.Just because one speaks Serbian ,this does not make him nessecarily a Serbian.
Finnish is Ugric but a Turkic speaker can't understand much at all.
While Turkic speakers have a relative degree of mutual intellegibility.
Ugric is the language of the Magyars who came from the steppes.Maybe modern day Ugric,due to it's different historical development from the Turkic languages of Middle East and Central Asia,seem different.But let's not forget that the Hungarians were under Austrian rule for quite some time.What i mean is that since the Magyars followed a different historical development in a different historical environment ,that of Europe's,than that of the Turkic populations of Asia,makes that difference more natural.
Also the turkic origin of some of this groups like Avars and white hun is not proved.
It is not disproved either.
Spartakus the name of Turk is not only used by Turkish turks , 1/4 of Iranian people use the same term to call themselves,Their language and culture is too diffrent from each other. The iranian turks are called by outsider as azeri, but they are diffrent from the people of northern azerbaijan, so the question who are the Turks will not be answered,
Maybe it's a language problem. Edited by Spartakus - 28-Feb-2007 at 13:28 |
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