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was TROY a civil war???
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Baron
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Posts: 493 		  Quote Top Gun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: was TROY a civil war???
    Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 13:30
well no because it where all independence states troy was one of them and moreover and independent culture and kingdom.
Aggememnon only united those states under his rule that why they where going united against troy
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 14:05
Nope,it wasn't.And why it should be in the first place?Achaioi,who differed from Trojans, wanted to conquer or destroy Troy,because of it's strategic location and ,probably,of Troyan taxes to Achaian ships.
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Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 14:22
I don't see it as a civil war eather.


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Posts: 0 		  Quote Segestan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 10:03

The Trojan War was , at least in part , a cultural civil war. According to Legend: Teucer was the first King; he was succeeded by Dardanus, who brought the Palladium from Samothrace. The last monarch was Priam, the richest and greatest potentate of Western Asia , his rule extending over several contiguous nations, as well as the coast of Thrace, and the confines of Thessaly. Mount Ida was the scene of the Judgement of Paris.

The Ten Years siege allowed the Greeks to contain the Trojans while towns along the Hellespont were reduced by Ajax ; Achilles extended his conquests along the Euxine ; Menelaus subjected several states in Phoenicia, Syria , Egypt and Cyprus.

The Trojan War was one of conquest and plunder. Seems likely that for an City such as Troy to gain the power and influence it did many territories most likely were tribute paying, the Greeks took those paying territories and all the treasury.

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Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 13:58
Originally posted by Segestan

The Trojan War was , at least in part , a cultural civil war.



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Bravo Segestan! Nice point.




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Posts: 493 		  Quote Top Gun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 14:06
I saw it as an worthles opinion and with an bad argument ( but thats my opinion take it not too serious)
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 14:14
It is most likely due to the Greek's attemt to monopolize the Western Medditeranean Sea and to end the economical and military competiton, as Segestan pointed out.
 
Just a question, Greeks united to invade Troy. Didn't Troy had any allies in the Asia Minor? Did they get any help from other cities nearby? Did the Trojans stayed behind the walls, or did they fight in the beaches in the beginning?
     
   
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Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 01:30
Originally posted by pekau

It is most likely due to the Greek's attemt to monopolize the Western Medditeranean Sea and to end the economical and military competiton, as Segestan pointed out.
 
Just a question, Greeks united to invade Troy. Didn't Troy had any allies in the Asia Minor? Did they get any help from other cities nearby? Did the Trojans stayed behind the walls, or did they fight in the beaches in the beginning?


They had allies especially from Thrace. Now, I do not remember if they fought outside the walls. They must have considering the duration of that war.


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Posts: 68 		  Quote Istor the Macedonian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 09:36
A civil war? No, I don't think so. But it was like a war between Italians and Spanyards.

Yes, Trojans had their allies from Asia Minor, apart Thracians, Dardanians, Peonians ... from Europe.
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 15:05
According to mythology,until Hector's death Trojans fought outside the city's walls.After his death,they lost their leader,hence they preferred to fight from inside the walls.
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 16:21

I never recall any records of any foreign reinforcement to aid Troy. Anyone have any evidence that Troy's allies came in time for aid?
     
   
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Onogur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 23:46
Yes, many thracians.... in fact many thracians fought on both sides. In a metter of fact if you read more carefully both Iliad and Odyssey, and also dig for some extra info, you will find out how many of the main characters in the Troian war were thracians, partly thracians or related to thracians. So, in a wayTongue... it was a civil war - a thracian one.

Edited by Onogur - 05-Mar-2007 at 23:41
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Posts: 1460 		  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 10:02
In the aristocratic world of Homer, there is neither an indication of ethnic difference between Trojans and Achaeans, nor even much a sense of common ethnicity among Achaeans.
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Posts: 0 		  Quote kroni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 15:20
yes, i think it was a real civil war, the world have to know this.
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Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 18:55
Originally posted by kroni

yes, i think it was a real civil war, the world have to know this.


Between which nations and where do you get this information? What people inhabited Asia Minor by that time?

We have no specifications on ethnicities. We just know that Lydians, Phrygians and Aeolians were around the area. If they were Aeolians which I doubt since Aeolia equaled Thessalians, then it was a civil war. If it was Phrygians, then the case is kinda far fetched. If it was Lydians, then it is too early if not completely wrong to speak about a civil war.


Edited by Flipper - 02-Mar-2007 at 19:05


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Posts: 0 		  Quote kroni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2007 at 07:07
i want to add that according to Homer and Herodotis either Phrygians and so lydians were from the same tribes,the same culture.....
i will post the facts of their writtings in the future
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Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2007 at 13:28
Originally posted by kroni

i want to add that according to Homer and Herodotis either Phrygians and so lydians were from the same tribes,the same culture.....
i will post the facts of their writtings in the future


Well, Lydia was a bit inside Asia Minor but that doesn't mean Troy couldn't be connected to them. The Phrygians had their Kindom next to Bithynia, Mysia and Aeolis. However, the Phrygian tribe of Thrace called Bithynioi was not the same as the Bithynians. The Bithynians of Asia Minor were supposed to be people that settled there after Jason and the argonauts.

The Trojans could however be Luwians.  There is a small linguistic connection between Greek and Luwian (mostly everyday words) but also cultural. Remember that the Carrians (who were originally Luwians) became during the fifth century equal to the other Greeks because of heavy Hellenization.

Generarly we can only make assumptions. The area was populated by all these nations at that early stage.


Edited by Flipper - 04-Mar-2007 at 13:39


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Posts: 1914 		  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2007 at 19:39

As Trojans were not Achaeans, no, it was not.
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we made up sorrows for ourselves;
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2007 at 08:13
we have to say also that according to homer the troyans were called also like dardans....
and after that more dardans were appeared at both sides....
we must give a more attention to dardans i think.....
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Posts: 1460 		  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2007 at 14:56
Originally posted by amanti

we have to say also that according to homer the troyans were called also like dardans....
and after that more dardans were appeared at both sides....
we must give a more attention to dardans i think.....
where homer called as Dardanians the Troyans ?
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