Allah, God... and more Christian/Muslim questions

Originally posted by beorna Originally posted by Nestorian   I respectfully disagree, the Torah and the Brit Hadashah (New Testament) have numerous references referring to Jesus as the Son of God, his virgin birth and his divinity. I thank you not to assume that I am a Catholic as I am not and the Pope does not represent me nor do I recognise his authority. The earliest Christians have always from the start believed in the Jesus as manifestation of God, his virgin birth, his Messiah-ship. It is in the scriptures. The Jewish Torah? I would like to hear about it! I mentioned the pope because his position wasn't once the one he has now or he had in the medieval era. Do you know the Arianism? It is a christian movement like those of the Nestorians. They didn't believe that God and Jesus are one person. So to say Christians did believe he's the son of God is not correct, because we have no sources for it. We just have the view of Paulus and the later Evangelists. It is the same with the virgin birth. That's not original.   Originally posted by Nestorian  I'm assuming you've never even taken the time to read the scriptures or contemplated serious study. I'm also assuming your information is all recycled second-hand information from destractors and hear-say about Christians believe in. I don't know if I know the bible as good as you. I grew up in an protestant family and I also got confirmation. I am often surprise that I do know a lot more than a lot of self-called good christians. But you're right. I watch the story from those of a historian, not those from the point of theology. I do like to know and not to believe.   Originally posted by Nestorian  Your problem is that you assume we made up these teachings centuries after Jesus when really the Ecumenical councils of Nicaea and Chalcedon were a confirmation of Christians believed in for centuries already. What was required was a formal statement of belief and the elimination of heresy since church organisation was still in its infancy and had only recently acquired ecclesiastical stability under Constantine I's reign. There were a lot of christian movements, even short after the dead of Jesus. All call them christians. The original group surrounding the family of Jesus lost his influence very quick. So what's the real story of Jesus and his teaching? All christians can't be right, isn't it?   Originally posted by Nestorian   Taken out of context, that is one hell of a sentence   Ah, but I assure you my friend, nothing is taken out of context when the context itself is consistent - checked and balance by intense scrutiny of translation. Muslims may find it hard to reconcile the idea that One God is Three persons, but is an understandable difficulty. God can do all things, he is not limited by our percieved logic. He is beyond the fullest definition and exists outside of our percieved parameters of understanding. What knowledge we have is just a mere blink. :)   By the way, I think it's remarkable that Jesus is a prophet of Islam, the christian view of Mohammed is not that positive.   Originally posted by Nestorian  I know that Jesus is accepted by Muslims, but that is only because it is "their version" of Jesus and acceptable to the teachings of Islam by denying his Godhood and divinity. Do you expect us to respect Muhammed in this regard then when he has basically attacked the fundamental core of Christian belief. So really, how does that make Christians look bad?? It doesn't you're being unreasonable expecting us to accept a Prophet who contradicts our own beliefs. I did not want to take i out of context. It is just a fact, that not all christians belief in trinity. I just wanted to figure that out.   Originally posted by Nestorian  As the apostle Paul himself said in the letter of Galatians: "If a person or an angel from heaven were to come down from heaven and give you a gospel different than that which we have taught you, last him be accursed" This are very strong words. I hope those angels weren't god-send. That would be his free-travel right down to his christian hell. Perhaps he didn't listen to Jesus: Those who want to be the first will be the last ones!

I agree with you that there were different christians befor e.g. Nicaea, even the orthodox one. So if you are a historian as well, you have to look for evidence. The evangelists didn't meet Jesus. The apocryphic letters were written sometimes written of people who met him. But even there we don't know their intention. In the beginning the Christians were a Jewish movement, not an independent religion. This changed with the Jewish revolt and with Paulus. It seems that he gave the christian religion a complete different direction. That's the time were the early christian groups lost their influence. But besides the "Paulus"-way there were different beliefs that all saw themselves in the descendance of Jesus. That Konstantin decided for the orthodox religion had nothing to do with right or wrong, just with power. So the orthodox and now the catholic maybe right but mustn't.

Interesting part of Thora! It would be great to know something about the context of it and the time of its appearance. By the way. Archaelogists have found female sculptures that let argue the jewish god once had a wife like Astarte. So why not a son. The problem is that the Jewish religion is not as old as the bible tells us, I mean this with a view on monotheism. Perhaps the jewish religion is a work of the babylonian captivity. So God's son gets a complete different type then.

How is Chrisitianity a jewish sect?????? Christian means follower of Christ.

For along time prior to going to Iraq, I largely accepted the view that Islam's god was the same as the Christian and Jewish god, but I've come to a few conclusions that have lead me otherwise.

First off, I am a Catholic, but almost Protestant at times. My spiritual mother is Greek Orthodox, and I do have a more than basic understanding of greek philosophy. And before Sept. 11, I already knew a lot of Muslims, and even had a pen pal from Malaysia who was one. I do not, still to this day, have ANYTHING against Islam, and if my brother said, 'I'm converting to Islam', my reaction would be that same as if he said, "I'm converting to Lutheranism or the Coptic church'. I would congratulate him, but warn him to make extra sure about it in this case.... cause they sometimes kill people who change their minds later on (hence why if I ever have kids, they will be forbidden to convert till the age of 18.... they can go to the Mosque all they want, but they better be damn sure of it, and no one is sure of anything prior to 18 (if even then)..... hence why parents have control over them up till then)

Having said this, I couldn't help but think about Jesus and the good Samaritan, and Jesus indifference to the taxation of a pagan roman government while I was guarding a bunch of Shiites on a pilgrimage, watching them beat themselves from time to time, hoping Sunnis wouldn't rise up out of the fishfarms in scuba gear and mow them down on their journey south.

The Muslims claim that the Koran won't allow for other faiths to interfere with their religious community, that they must be a sovereign power in and of their own, as Medina was, and concepts of Jihad. The Christians DID have the crusades, but it wasn't written anywhere to do that, and that happened a good thousand years after. Jesus didn't urge a uprising, he pretty much said, 'Hey, we got bigger issues to worry about here', such as your individual sins, or recognizing others were more good and noble than ourselves, as in the good Samaritan. Christianity is not a religion of Jihad, or even of Crusades.... it a pacifist religion, or at least to the degree possible. Jesus even went so far to accept crucification from a sham court with political motives over urging a rebellion or uprising. I honestly do not see this in Muhammad. He fled, set up a desert outpost, built a army, and conquered, and established a religious state.

Secondly, Jesus was known to skip and bend the rules when it came to matters of salvation and redemption. He did not refute the old laws, but rather said, in the case of the woman of committed adultly about to get stoned "He who is without sin should cast the first stone". The result of this is no one did through it, cause they all knew deep down inside, they were just as much of a turd as she was, and instead of her dying as a criminal and sinner, she had her eyes opened, and changed her ways. Many Muslims..... no, I do not see them doing this. I know there are some liberal judges out there, but I also know their are some birdbrained ones who can't see farther than the text they memorized. I honestly don't know the relation of the Sharia to the Koran, other than I am 20 times more suspect of the Sharia than the Koran in being a complete sham.

Also, I am finding Muslim sacrifice questionable as well. I am no member of PETA, but both me and the Jew from my unit though it was pretty much bull. It wasn't a sacrifice of the best they had, and it wasn't for their salvation, but rather, more of a technique to get into heaven. They said something about when they sacrificed a animal (which they only did once a year) the animals helped them rise above the flames of hell. Obviously, we didn't quite catch what he was saying, and I am sure there was a beautiful story behind what he was trying to tell us (the sacrifice happened IN the base, we had a small mosque there for the Iraqi electric workers, who are pretty nice people in all honesty).

I was also told by a Iraqi that the Koran said the I had three gods, which was news to me and everyone else. Not a Christian among us had three. We counted on our fingers...... one. The revelation that he next said was that One was the Mother, The Father, and the Son. This impressed me much, given the keen insights. (I couldn't get my hand on a Koran in Iraq, believe it or not.... command only letting Muslims have it.... for reasons that have since become obvious with the occasional redneck mutilating it or shooting it after his buddy dies..... but at the time I didn't realize that, only after getting out did I comprehend this hearing about some dipbrain doing it) I do not know what part of it said that, when I went to the mosque in Basic Training in Georgia, the only part we read was the book on the Cows, and half of that exploration was dedicated to explaining what Jinn were.... so it may or may not say it in there, if anyone knows where, tell me.

Basically, I think it is complete bull now to say it is the same god. The god of the Christians wasn't actively seeking a religious state, recognized the exceeding good in others over members of his own faith, and could accept a PAGAN overlordship, because the concern of the faithful wasn't to them, but to their salvation. And in the end, this payed off, cause the militarily stronger pagans broke down spiritually and followed. Islam conquered, and had difficulty to this day of convincing many even in Iraq and Iran, surprising to me, of converting. Christianity didn't take over in a night, but we didn't start off in a position of overwhelming force either. Siwa, a desert oasis in Egypt, didn't even convert till the 12TH century, and there were still many strong Coptic communities on the upper nile till the 19th century. In Iraq, you have Chaldeans, Catholics, Mandeaens, even satan worshippers (Malik Tauk), and Iran has variation of them as well, plus Bahai-ist and Zoroastrians. And I know the Muslims don't like them, cause they were trying to kill them while I was there, but they kept going.

I thought it was pretty amazing until I started to question Islam while watching those pilgrims black and green flags go by. People don't react to antagonism very well, and that is the main strength, and mortal weakness of Islam. It's why they are mostly limited to brutal desert lands, where the sun will kill you quick. You gotta be mean and coordinated to survive, like the desert nomads of Ibn Khaldun. In America, Islam isn't much different in operations from Christian churches. You could take them as a separatist religion like the Jehova Witnesses or the Mormons who claim to be Christians, changed everything up and have deeply unorthodox beliefs. Mormons added and changed the bible to fit their vision, just as Muhammed did (but by no means to the same extent)..... but I can tolerate Mormons here..... just as I could tolerate Muslims here. We are of the same culture, when thanksgiving comes around, we all help the poor families, if you are sick, we take pity and try to help, homeless, we try to give shelter. It is for this reason that I think Islam in America is going to outlive Islam in the middle east.... they are not cruel people here, they are one of us, and because of this, they can go on for thousands of years with minimal friction. I don't see this happening in the totalitarian, zealot driven middle east, Islam has already created offshoot religions, it's only a matter to time till one of them continue the Jihad against their forefathers.




This is my opinion.... and I respect the faith and beliefs of others, and would never stand in the way of them. Please understand this, I am not asking anyone to follow or believe the above, it's just how I see it, but as men grow older, their ideas are in flux, and I may not follow this in 20 years, or even in one year, but at this moment, it's how I see it, and it's from my experiences, observations in ONE part of the Islamic world and in America, and my reflections on my experiences and grappling with questions. Fill free to point out inconsistencies or mistaken views on my part, I'll try to avoid egotistical resistance here.


Edited by Mercury_Dawn - 31-Aug-2008 at 21:15

Yeah, I think the trinity issue is just more or less trying to reconcile greek philosophy with Christianity. I have no concern for it. There is a church in Columbus, Ohio, greek Orthodox, that has enlarged, and they build the new church next to and over the old one. The turned the old one into a bookstore, but you can see the guy who painted the picture of god up on the wall put three human figures there, I suppose representing the trinity, and made the middle one have a triangle over his head, representing the trinity..... so you ended up with FIVE people up there. I call the one on the left Bob, and the one on the right Ed. Bob, Ed, and God just sitting up there, chillin, enjoying the air conditioner.

I think it's silly to think of god having a body to begin with, what's the point of being in human shape prior to creation? Or even afterwards? Some stuff wasn't really thought out, and we stumbled in the stupid era of the later empire. But this is the least important part of Christianity, a people who should be looking after their own salvation and living in brotherhood and helping those in need.

Well, some of the most respected christian philosophers and experts were actually big believers of the Trinity.  Think of people like Augustine of Hippo.  People did think those little theological points were worthy of a lot of trouble considering that the roman and orthodox churchs were capable of arguing over bread...

God in the Qu'ran wants you to choose whatever you want to do or believe, basically freedom of choice and belief is a concrete belief in the Qu'ran. There is God, and there is God's word whether you choose to follow that or learn about it, or whether you want to reject it after hearing is all up to the individual. 

Allow me to interject myself into this discussion, I so hate coming across things so late as those who know me will verify, but I digress.....

Basically, I think it is complete bull now to say it is the same god. The god of the Christians wasn't actively seeking a religious state, recognized the exceeding good in others over members of his own faith, and could accept a PAGAN overlordship, because the concern of the faithful wasn't to them, but to their salvation.

Actually the whole conclusion to Christianity is the fact that God is trying to place a religious state on earth. When the end times come we won't have a democracy or a kingdom or a dictatorship, we will have a kind of theocracatic anarchy that has no rulers because there will be no need for them. The difference though is that in Christianity we cannot bring it about by force but we must do so by cooperation and with grace.

And the logos isn't basicly Jewish tradition too. It's probably hellenistic. So this could be a result of the hellenistic group among the Jerusalem christians under Jesus brother Jacobus.

The Logos as the third person of the trinity wasn't defined very well in the embryonic church. It is a hellenistic concept but it wasn't known in the time of Jesus it only came about in it's modern form till about 200 years later.

I think it's silly to think of god having a body to begin with, what's the point of being in human shape prior to creation? Or even afterwards?

God probably wasn't in human shape prior to creation....(although does God exist outside of creation or is he coterminous with it?) Anyway the reason God is represented artistically as a human is because he chose to become man and for that reason Jesus is the only material form he has. He is represented as being aged to signify that he is the "father" of the trinity as opposed to the son who never achieved that age in his human lifetime.

God in the Qu'ran wants you to choose whatever you want to do or believe, basically freedom of choice and belief is a concrete belief in the Qu'ran. There is God, and there is God's word whether you choose to follow that or learn about it, or whether you want to reject it after hearing is all up to the individual.

Then what is the justification that fanatics use to rebuke those that reject Islam or those muslims who choose to stray from Islam. If Islam gives you a choice then why does it say in the Quran that the punishment for conversion to another faith is death?

Originally posted by JanusRook Then what is the justification that fanatics use to rebuke those that reject Islam or those muslims who choose to stray from Islam. If Islam gives you a choice then why does it say in the Quran that the punishment for conversion to another faith is death?

Originally posted by Seko Originally posted by JanusRook Then what is the justification that fanatics use to rebuke those that reject Islam or those muslims who choose to stray from Islam. If Islam gives you a choice then why does it say in the Quran that the punishment for conversion to another faith is death?   I wish people would get their facts straight instead of assuming fanatical positions themselves via bold statements that are inevitably wrong. To repeat, there is no death warrant for apostates in the Quran. It does not say that there is, ever was or will be. The fanatics, on the other hand, create all kinds of laws unto themselves. They always have, they still do and, most likely, will continue to do so.

Edited by Akolouthos - 18-Sep-2008 at 23:26