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omshanti
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Topic: Descendants of the Prophet? Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 06:18 |
This is what I found about the Sayyids in wikipedia. Are they really direct descendants of Mohammad? From wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seyed
Sayyid (سيد) (plural Saadah) is an honorific title often given to males accepted as descendants of the Islamic prophet Muhammad through his grandsons, Hassan and Husayn, who were the sons of his daughter Fatima Zahra and his cousin and son-in-law Ali ibn Abi Talib. Indication of descent
Sayyids often include the following titles in their names to
indicate the figure from whom they trace their descent. If they are
descended from more than one notable ancestor or Shi'a imam, they will use the title of the ancestor from whom they are most directly descended.
Edited by omshanti - 13-Feb-2007 at 06:27
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Shiroyeh
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Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 08:30 |
Would this thread not be more at home in the Post-Classic Middle East section?
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malizai_
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Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 08:55 |
Sayyid is mostly a shia adoption and IMHO part of a identity synthesis that resulted in the wake of spread of islam. What is the best family, the prophets, so if you are going to create a new identity then why not affiliate with the best. A lot of early muslims would have been divorced from their communities anyway, so seems logical.(Just a guess)
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omshanti
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Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 09:24 |
Originally posted by Shiroyeh
Would this thread not be more at home in the Post-Classic Middle East section?
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You are right Shiroyeh. Thanks for pointing it out. I have to admit that I was not interested in the post-classic/Islamic era in the middle east at all and therefore did not notice the existence of that sub-forum untill now. I also simply thought that it would be read by more Iranians here. Any way, Moderators please move this thread to the post-classic moddle east sub-forum if possible.
Originally posted by malizai_
Sayyid is mostly ashia adoption and IMHO part of a identity synthesis that resultedin the wake of spread of islam. What is the best family, the prophets, so if you are going to create a new identity then why not affiliate with the best. A lotof early muslims would have been divorced from their communities anyway, so seems logical.(Just a guess)
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Does that mean that none of the sayyids are actually the descendants of the Prophet?
Edited by omshanti - 13-Feb-2007 at 09:29
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malizai_
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Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 10:01 |
My guess is 95% are not. Also those that are don't necessarily call themselves Sayyid. I would think that his decendants would be concentrated around southern Iraqi cities of kufah, Najaf, and hijaz, and maybe some areas of Jordan.
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 17:24 |
Shia care alot more than sunnis about being a Syed naturally, and indeed there are many that are made up. You have to remember that some people claim to be a syed without being a hashmi - which is impossible as far as I can see, syed is also a name, and some people (particularly punjabis) took the name hashmi when they converted without being related to the hashmi family.
As for me, my family is from the Hejaz.
Syed Omar Hussain al Hashim al Quraesh
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Killabee
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Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 18:45 |
No offense to muslim. But do you think the term "direct descendant" of Mohammed is somewhat misleading as Mohammad left no son , hence no paternal descendant ,when he died.
The so-called direct descendant of Mohammad is actuallly the offshoot of Ali although you can argue that Ali was more like a step-son figure of Mohammed ,plus they both came from Banu Hashemi clan.
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Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 18:56 |
Originally posted by Killabee
No offense to muslim. But do you think the term "direct descendant" of Mohammed is somewhat misleading as Mohammad left no son , hence no paternal descendant ,when he died.
The so-called direct descendant of Mohammad is actuallly the offshoot of Ali although you can argue that Ali was more like a step-son figure of Mohammed ,plus they both came from Banu Hashemi clan.
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Ali was married to the Prophet's daughter, they had children hence those children would be the biological grandchildren of the Prophet.
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 18:58 |
No offense to muslim. But do you think the term "direct descendant" of
Mohammed is somewhat misleading as Mohammad left no son , hence no
paternal descendant ,when he died. |
Why? Don't girls count as ancestors? Your talking about direct paternal descent
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Zagros
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Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 19:09 |
It's a scam - Syed is just a continuation of Brahman.
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 20:30 |
What has Brahman got to do with anything?
Although some do use it to scam people.
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Aktufe
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Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 22:22 |
From what it seems to be done by those "syeds," Zagros is correct.
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Killabee
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Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 22:45 |
duplicate.
Edited by Killabee - 13-Feb-2007 at 22:47
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Killabee
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Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 22:46 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
No offense to muslim. But do you think the term "direct descendant" of
Mohammed is somewhat misleading as Mohammad left no son , hence no
paternal descendant ,when he died. |
Why? Don't girls count as ancestors?
Your talking about direct paternal descent
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I am not saying they don't . But normally the family lineage only pass from father to son, not from father to daughter . But I think in Mohammad's case it is exceptional given the relationship between Mohammad and Ali.
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omshanti
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Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 00:24 |
Interesting opinions here. I guess it is understandable that most of them are not really the descendants of Mohammad, because there are unbelievable amount of seyeds (sayyids) out there (millions?). After all Mohammad or his grand children must not have been like genghiz-khan who left millions of descendants all over the place, have they?
I knew some Seyed people in Iran who were not happy at all about being seyeds because they hated to be stereotyped as mullahs or be expected to act like religious islamic people in public. Some of them were able to change their names or take off the seyed part from their names during the chaos of the revolution. The ones that could not take advantage of the chaotic revolutionary times were not able to change it because the islamic government does not alow it.
Is it possible for a seyed person to convert to another religion in middle eastern countries? I was just wondering because their names already indicate a strong islamic background. It would be really strange to see a christian or jewish or zoroastrian person with a seyed name.
This whole topic is making me interested in the origins of people's family names in general.
Edited by omshanti - 15-Feb-2007 at 00:32
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Spartakus
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Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 14:13 |
Originally posted by Killabee
But normally the family lineage only pass from father to son, not from father to daughter .
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Depends of the social organization.If we talk about a patriarchal society then it is ,indeed,normal the family lineage to pass from father to son.But if we talk about a matriarchal society,then the family lineage passes from the mother to the kids,especially daughter.
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malizai_
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Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 09:20 |
Originally posted by Killabee
No offense to muslim. But do you think the term "direct descendant" of Mohammed is somewhat misleading as Mohammad left no son , hence no paternal descendant ,when he died.
The so-called direct descendant of Mohammad is actuallly the offshoot of Ali although you can argue that Ali was more like a step-son figure of Mohammed ,plus they both came from Banu Hashemi clan.
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Yes you are right, Arabs follow a patrilineal descent. Mohammed once carrying his grandsons, one in his arm and one on his shoulder with referring to them had said: "these are my progeny". So i guess this is why people accept them as the line of Mohammed. Ofcourse biologically the blood line would be through the daughter as well as the son.
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omshanti
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Posted: 17-Feb-2007 at 00:55 |
Originally posted by malizai_
I would think that his decendants would be concentrated around southern Iraqi cities of kufah, Najaf, and hijaz, and maybe some areas of Jordan. |
Can you please explain why they would be concentrated in to those cities and areas? I was just wondering because I have absolutely no knowledge about the history of Mohammad or Islam. Did those areas have a big role in the development of Islam?
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Posted: 17-Feb-2007 at 01:07 |
Ali's descendants lived there.
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Kapikulu
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Posted: 13-Mar-2007 at 03:55 |
Also, Hashemite family, current royalty of Jordan, former royalty of Iraq and family of former Sherif Hussein of Mecca, claims to be descendants of the prophet, however their lineage is coming from uncle of prophet, Abbas.
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