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How did Sudan become an Arab nation?
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Killabee View Drop Down
Earl
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Posts: 269 		  Quote Killabee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: How did Sudan become an Arab nation?
    Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 19:40

Unlike all the nations in the Arab League, Sudan was never under the map of early Islamic conquest. The people of Sudanese look exactly like their neighboring Nubian black african albeit speaking Arabic .There was no massive migration from Arabia to Sudan record  in history. I know the Sudan was ruled by Egyptian for a period of time in the middle ages. Was it how Sudan became Arabized ?
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 21:17
Well, Muslim is working hard to spread their influence all over the world... like many other religions. I mean, I honestly don't think Indonesia was never under the map of early Islamic conquest since Arabics did not even know Indonesia existed at that time... but that does not mean Muslims can't share the religion outside of Islamic conquest "map' as you defined it.
 
Religiously speaking (Although I am not Muslim) I believe that Islam's belief teaches to spread their religion all around the world.... until every souls on earth are converted to Islam.


Edited by pekau - 06-Feb-2007 at 21:18
     
   
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Posts: 2252 		  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 23:17
Pekau
 
How did Islam spread to Indonesia(The largest muslim population state)?
 
Arabaized--would be linguistically with cultural similarities, not racial. Egyptians are still Egyptians.
Syrians, Syrians.
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 23:25
Originally posted by malizai_

Pekau
 
How did Islam spread to Indonesia(The largest muslim population state)?
 
Arabaized--would be linguistically with cultural similarities, not racial. Egyptians are still Egyptians.
Syrians, Syrians.
 
For the first question you asked... you tell me. You are the man of Allah. You tell me how the people of Indonesia were converted into Islam. I was wondering as well, as well as why so many Chinese were converted into Islam.
 
For second question, I don't fully understand. Could you elaborate?
     
   
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Posts: 2252 		  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 00:59

Allah tell me that it spread through Arab dhows in east asia.

Now!, who tell you that Arabics(Whatever that is!) did not know of Indonesian islands at the time of early conquest.

Could you elaborate as to what second question you are talking about.
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Posts: 269 		  Quote Killabee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 12:15
Originally posted by pekau

Well, Muslim is working hard to spread their influence all over the world... like many other religions. I mean, I honestly don't think Indonesia was never under the map of early Islamic conquest since Arabics did not even know Indonesia existed at that time... but that does not mean Muslims can't share the religion outside of Islamic conquest "map' as you defined it.
 
Religiously speaking (Although I am not Muslim) I believe that Islam's belief teaches to spread their religion all around the world.... until every souls on earth are converted to Islam.
 
Please read my question one more time. I am not asking how islam reached Sudan. I am asking how Arabization took place in Sudan and started calling themselves "Arab"when the fact is they were never ruled by Arab Caliph and they look exactly like their surrouding sub-sahara black African.
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Posts: 353 		  Quote Joinville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 15:12
Originally posted by Killabee

I am not asking how islam reached Sudan. I am asking howArabization took place in Sudanand started calling themselves "Arab"when the fact is they were never ruled by Arab Caliph and they look exactly like their surrouding sub-sahara black African.

I hope someone comes up with an informed quality post for this.

In the mean time I'll hazzard a guess that it occurred a bit like Scnadinavia turned Christian.
It was probabaly politically advantageous for local rulers to adopt it to get on a better footing with powerful neighbours. (You can play the marriage game of politics with Muslim rulers only if you're Muslims I suspect).
There woud also be nice perks for Sudanese rulers to enhance their power like better administration to be picked up from Muslim neighbours, but since the medium for this was Arabic, a certain amount of arabisation in due time could be expected.
This is how Christianity took hold in Scandinavia, with Latin as the medium for literacy, more efficient government etc.
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 20:57
I don't think that the sudanese have been particularly arabized. They probably spoke a semetic language that has gradually blurred with arabic as the other semetic languages have. As you travel down the Nile the people gradually change, at some point they have to be half way between an Egyptian, and a African => A sudanese.

To a large extent I think arabization was limited to a standardisation in the alphabet of the semetic languages.
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Posts: 1791 		  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2007 at 09:42

Sudan was for a long time christian. During the initial early phase of Islamic expansion, the Sudanese christian states of Nobatia, Alwah (or Alodia) and Makuria resisted the Arab conquest. In fact they were the first to inflict a real defeat upon the Arabs in 652, due to their excellent contigents of archers. These christan kingdoms (at least Makuria and Alodia) managed to survive until the 14th century, when eventually they fell to muslim attacks and internal problems. For the 7-8 centuries that they did survive, they did so by paying a form of tribute to the Arab caliphates called the bakt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makuria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alodia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobatia

By the late 13th century, the Mamelukes managed to place a muslim king upon the throne of Makuria, which started the process of Islamization. This process was accelerated after 1517, when the Ottomans under Selim "the Grim" conquered Sudan and made it a part of the Ottoman Empire. 


With Islamization came Arabization. Over several centuries (really ever since the 14th century), the language of commerce, diplomacy, religion and learning was Arabic. In addition, Arab traders and soldiers moved to Sudan and mixed with the locals. It's important to note that the Arabization mainly took place in the regions occupied by the 3 ancient christian kingdoms, along the valley of the Nile, where the region was urbanized enough for the Arabic language to make inroads. In the Darfur and Southern Sudan, Arabization made little headway, because of the difficult nature of the terrain, the mainly rural aspect of those areas and lack of political control. Those regions remained pagan for a long time. Darfur became muslim too late for Arabization to make much headway so far, while southern Sudan was still pagan by the time christian missionaries arrived in the 19th century.  
 


Edited by Decebal - 08-Feb-2007 at 09:50
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2007 at 19:55
while southern Sudan was still pagan by the time christian missionaries arrived in the 19th century. 

South Sudan converted to christianity in the third century AD
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Posts: 1791 		  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2007 at 23:50
Are you sure about that? South Sudan is 4000 km from Palestine, not to speak of the terrains to be crossed. By the 3rd century AD, christianity had some isolated communites in the Mediterranean basin, Armenia, Georgia and Ethiopia and that's about it. To my knowledge, even Northern Sudan got christianized (from Egypt), only in the 5-6th centuries AD. Even Ethiopia as an area of christianity is rather remote from southern Sudan, due to the difficulties in travelling.
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2007 at 00:31
I am sure, it was told to me by a very intellegent Dinka (South Sudanese) guy. I expect they converted at the same time as Ethiopia. I don't know, perhaps Ethiopia ruled over the region at the time. I'm pretty sure they're Ethiopian Koptic
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Posts: 353 		  Quote Joinville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2007 at 06:36
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

I am sure, it was told to me by a very intellegent Dinka (South Sudanese)guy. I expect they converted at the same time as Ethiopia. I don't know, perhaps Ethiopia ruled over the region at the time. I'm pretty sure they're Ethiopian Koptic

The call on traditional Dinka religion is that they believed in a form of supreme high-god. It wouldn't make them Christians in the eyes of other Christians, but it might explain why this man might feel he can claim the Dinka have been at least montheists (more or less) for a very long time.

In fact, that not all Dinka are Christians to this day seems to be the consensus between anthroplogists, variuos missonary foundations in the area and a good number of Dinkas themselves.
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Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 15:42
Originally posted by Joinville

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

I am sure, it was told to me by a very intellegent Dinka (South Sudanese) guy. I expect they converted at the same time as Ethiopia. I don't know, perhaps Ethiopia ruled over the region at the time. I'm pretty sure they're Ethiopian Koptic

The call on traditional Dinka religion is that they believed in a form of supreme high-god. It wouldn't make them Christians in the eyes of other Christians, but it might explain why this man might feel he can claim the Dinka have been at least montheists (more or less) for a very long time.

In fact, that not all Dinka are Christians to this day seems to be the consensus between anthroplogists, variuos missonary foundations in the area and a good number of Dinkas themselves.
 
And as an added point, most Southeren Sudanese  Christians are Evangelical Christians (with a sizable Catholic minority).  This suports a relatively recent conversion to Christianity by the Dinkas.  
 
There are a small number of Coptic Christians (probably Egyptian in origin) in the north.  
 


Edited by Cryptic - 16-Feb-2007 at 15:45
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2007 at 14:15

I didn't know that Dinka and southern Sudanese were christians since the 3rd century AD. Even Christians statistics on Dinka people place them at a very low percentage that is insufficient to call them Christian. Local traditional religions still exist widely there.

Only the historical regions of Nobatia (South of Egypt, upper Sudan) and Makuria (central Sudan today) were converted to Christianity through Byzentine missionaries between 543-580 AD.

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Posts: 1914 		  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 06:05
Originally posted by Decebal

 
By the late 13th century, the Mamelukes managed to place a muslim king upon the throne of Makuria, which started the process of Islamization. This process was accelerated after 1517, when the Ottomans under Selim "the Grim" conquered Sudan and made it a part of the Ottoman Empire. 

With Islamization came Arabization. Over several centuries (really ever since the 14th century), the language of commerce, diplomacy, religion and learning was Arabic. In addition, Arab traders and soldiers moved to Sudan and mixed with the locals. It's important to note that the Arabization mainly took place in the regions occupied by the 3 ancient christian kingdoms, along the valley of the Nile, where the region was urbanized enough for the Arabic language to make inroads. In the Darfur and Southern Sudan, Arabization made little headway, because of the difficult nature of the terrain, the mainly rural aspect of those areas and lack of political control. Those regions remained pagan for a long time. Darfur became muslim too late for Arabization to make much headway so far, while southern Sudan was still pagan by the time christian missionaries arrived in the 19th century.  
 
 
It will be kinda' an assumption, but I don't think that the roots of Islamization in Sudan is rooted in 13th century. It shall be much before. I mean, not the common acceptation, but first acceptance of Islam.
 
In that century, even most of the Western Africa had accepted Islam.
 
As Sudan is very close to Egypt, and  Arabian Peninsula's Western coastline in terms of distance, by logic, I come to an assumptional conclusion that first progress was made during Four Caliphate Rule and then Tulunids and Fatimids.
 
Famous Nubian Archers may have defeated some attempts, however, I think 13th century can be the time for the beginning of massive Islamization in Sudan 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2007 at 16:56
Hello All,
 
I have studied the topic of arabs, their ethnicity, and their dispersion into the lands surrounding the near east for the past 14 centuries for a very long time. All I could say, that ethnically, the only arabs of today are those of the arabian peninsular, the levant, and Mesopotamia, these people are ethnically arab and have originated in the Yemen. Others, like egyptians, moroccans, and sudanese, are no more arab than a japanese man is, except that they speak the language.
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2007 at 14:52
well, the further you go out of the Arabian peninsula, the less chances you can meet a pure Arab (have not mixed at all) and the higher chances of meeting an Arabatized arab (Arab by culture and not genes). Yet, It is impossible that Arabatized regions of northern Africa do not have a drop of Arab mixing at least in urbanized centers. Let us not forget that Arab tribes existed already in the Levantine region in pre-Islamic era and have mixed with many elements of other Babylonians, Assyrians, Phonecians, Canaanites (though it is believed those immigrated out of the Peninsula way earlier than Arab massive immigration).
In addition, contineious immigrations of Arabs that reached Andalucia has never stop but accelerated by Banu Hilal and Banu Sulayem two huge Arab tribes that immigrated to Northern Africa in the 11th centuryand fought the Zirids on behalf of the Fatimids.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2007 at 17:31
Originally posted by ok ge

well, the further you go out of the Arabian peninsula, the less chances you can meet a pure Arab (have not mixed at all) and the higher chances of meeting an Arabatized arab (Arab by culture and not genes). Yet, It is impossible that Arabatized regions of northern Africa do not have a drop of Arab mixing at least in urbanized centers. Let us not forget that Arab tribes existed already in the Levantine region in pre-Islamic era and have mixed with many elements of other Babylonians, Assyrians, Phonecians, Canaanites (though it is believed those immigrated out of the Peninsula way earlier than Arab massive immigration).
In addition, contineious immigrations of Arabs that reached Andalucia has never stop but accelerated by Banu Hilal and Banu Sulayem two huge Arab tribes that immigrated to Northern Africa in the 11th centuryand fought the Zirids on behalf of the Fatimids.
 
Spot on, but still, even those arabs who have migrated to north africa in the medieval era, they melted down with the local, sedentary populations, and have adopted their culture, language, and traditions. Ex. As an arab today, I would have absolutely no idea what a moroccan or algerian would be speaking, even though they allegedly claim it is arabic.
 
The arabs of the Levant as you said, have mixed with the many urban, non-arab populations there, with the turks, with the crusaders. The arabs of Iraq have also mixed with the Persians.
 
If you want to find the purist arab genes, you should go to Nejd in central arabia, this plateau has remained exclusively arab since pre-islam, with no other cultures and dialects intruding in.
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Posts: 269 		  Quote Killabee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 02:37
Even the  Arab in the peninsular are heavily mixed.  In region in Western Saudi Arabia and Yemen, you can find many Arab with African feature. According to one source ,  many African slaves were brought to Peninsular by the Arab slavetrader and eventually intermarried with the local Arab.

Look at this fellow Abdallah Al-Bishi, who is an Arab from Saudi Arabia:

http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1322wmv&ak=null
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