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Originally posted by Aelfgifu Caliming to understand Islam is quite daring...Tongue After all, people have been fighting over its 'truth' for centuries... (and the same for Christianity as well of course.)

Ah, but I never actually did that. I only claimed that I thought Christianity was complicated because I didn't understand it.

The core of Islam is simple (at least so muslims think). Believe in one God who cannot be compared to anything else, believe in the day of judgement, say your prayers, obey the laws God set. If you do this as best you can heaven if you don't hell. Don't be worried if you can't, God is merciful, do be worried if you don't but can. There isn't any complicated theology about the basic tenants.
The "mechanics of the universe" in Islam is not simple, areas like free-will are quite complicated, and then all the bits that have been created by men, the Islamic Sciences such as Hadiths and Shariah, are complicated. I think men have a vested interest in making things complicated so that only educated people can do it.

Most of the fights are over Hadiths, or over who should rule.

Originally posted by gcle2003 Originally posted by Cezar You both state that we are given free will Omar, do you actually believe that (I haven't seen you say it.)

Yes... but at the same time No. Its complicated and I don't understand
The way I currently think of it, is as if your walking past a pretty girl and you stop to talk to her. You know that you made the choice to stop and talk to her, you know you could've chosen otherwise, but at the same time you were only responding to the chemicals in your body, the smell and look of the girl, your bodies natural cycles, the fact that your friends had been teasing your for not having a girlfriend. So was it your "free will" that made you stop and talk to her, or was it the scientific explaination ("Gods Will")? It was both in my mind, a situation was setup for you, and you made that decision. But that decision then sets up a situation for someone else (such as the girl), so it is both the will of God, and the will of man at the same time.

Originally posted by Zaitsev What kind of a meaningless line is that? It's like saying most books are boring until you read them!

Its not meaningless at all. Has a teacher ever put up a problem on the board, which you thought was complicated and were unable to do. Then the teacher explains it to you and suddenly it all makes sense?


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 08-Feb-2007 at 19:39

Originally posted by Decebal Sounds like a nice explanation pekau. But why did God make the fruit forbidden in the first place? And how does the sacrifice of Jesus, who is one with God; how does the death of one who doesn't really die because he is God, somehow redeem humanity's sins? And who decides what is a sin? God? in that case isn't the whole point of a grand gesture to overlook his own rules a little moot? That is the problem.... And Top gun, if God is omnipotent and he somehow created us in his own image, then why are we not perfect?   See, I think that actually reading too literally the Bible has one going into circles. I think that at least certain parts of it are a metaphor. As I see it, the original sin was the creation of our imaginary set of rules, our attempt to create our own world. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they realized that they were naked. So in other words, they thought that the natural order of things was not good enough and they had to change their enironment, and assign an arbitrary value to wearing clothes which they didn't really need. For the first time, they introduced an imaginary dual concept: naked as opposed to clothed. The presence of clothes also had a sexual connotation, so it signalled the humans need to assign a mystical quality to certain natural acts: it was the beginning of religion. They actually thought for themselves and started to change the world to their liking, both on a physical (environment) and imaginary (religion) way, even though the world was created specifically for them (or they were created specifically for the world). In other words they questioned God's design, indrectly questioning God himself. And we still do now.... Our own curiosity and drive for knowledge and comfort: that is what creates all the problems. But to deny that is to deny being human. Asking a human not to sin is like asking him to deny what gives him his identity.

Originally posted by Northman Islam or Christianity isnt complicated - nor is Judaism or any other mainstream religion in fact. They are simple concepts, and they have to be simple to the average person. They are FAITH's - and that term implies that you cannot reason yourself to a certain truth - you HAVE to believe it. Its the theologist/clerics who makes it complicated.   If religions werent simple, most people wouldnt understand anything - and even today most people, regardless of religion, dont understand the basic concepts to the full extend. And more important - most people today - nomatter what they claim, cannot adhere and live to the full extend of what their religion originally demanded of its followers. They bend and twist the words to make it meet their needs and present situation.   Sometimes I claim to be a Christian, trying to follow the simple teachings of Christ. But if I read my bible - read what should characterize a true Christian, I utterly fail. I dont know anyone who could meet those standards, and certainly not me.   Its not enough to CLAIM you are Christain/Muslim - you have to be recognized as such - by the original standards. To my best knowledge and assesment - thats impossible if you still plan to function in a modern society.   ~ Northman

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim I think thats just being stubborn

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Learned men of any field have a vested interest in making sure that their field of study is complicated enough that not everyone can do it.

Originally posted by gcle2003 Faith is the ability to go on believing in something after it has been disproven.

Originally posted by Zaitsev Originally posted by gcle2003 Faith is the ability to go on believing in something after it has been disproven. Like GCLE here follows the Evolution faith.

Originally posted by gcle2003 Faith is the ability to go on believing in something after it has been disproven.

Edited by Zaitsev - 10-Feb-2007 at 21:48

Not directly...