Lions vs. Tigers

Originally posted by red clay Prime, could not find anything wrong.  Can you still not edit?

I guess its because of this computer, I did have this problem before being its so out dated, so I guess I'll have to be careful how I post...So I guess thats the Roman empires records so far, theres also the Indian empires an British empires too...do you know of any empires that had these 2 majestic beast's combat the other? I was putting together an archive for either each empire or each continent.

But Thanks for the chack up ^_^

Japanese Dynastys and Empires
~(Importations as far back as the 2nd century)

This episode is a pantomime about a lion and a tiger. They fight each other and the lion catches the tiger in the end. This episode is originated from topographical characteristics of Mt. Baek at Suyeong. When a big lion appears in dancing, a tiger (called "Dambo") comes. They dance and talk back and forth. In the end, the lion catches the tiger.
http://www.suyeongminsok.or.kr/eng/menu01_02.php

Japanese culture, reinacting events of the past ^, it would seem that the lion an tiger would fight, an in the end usually the lion would win.
Lions and tigers were imported so just like the chinese, they were most likely pited or accidentally got at each other in captivity, showing past historical artifacts of who usually won recorded by the Japanese...





1793
Of a lion fighting a tiger, incised maker's mark Gyouko Saku [ù?å?çÏ, made by Gyouko].

19 C) Han Dynasty
Patinated & carved Japanese Meiji fighting lion and tiger bronze.
Bronze made "à cire perdue" (a method of casting bronze, in which a mould is formed around a wax pattern, which is subsequently melted and drained away).The eyes are made of glass. The patina work on the tiger is particular remarkable. The signature is under the lion: "Watanabe"






http://www.panasia.ch/images/japon/2636.jpg
Bronze
1860, signature
http://japanantiques.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/-652503307253362890.jpg
http://images.artfinding.com/svv/thumbs_lot/250/groupe_en_bronze_a_patine_brune_lion_attaquant_un_tigre-335-1.jpg

This might be a bit of a side issue, but I remember a while ago hearing about someone in America at sometime in the past having bears fighting lions and tigers. The result of those encounters was that the bear never ever lost. This was down to the powerful jaws of the bears which would easily crush the skull of the other unfortunate creatures.

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising This might be a bit of a side issue, but I remember a while ago hearing about someone in America at sometime in the past having bears fighting lions and tigers. The result of those encounters was that the bear never ever lost. This was down to the powerful jaws of the bears which would easily crush the skull of the other unfortunate creatures.

I think I know the source that mentioned the gold mine-ing storys of california, where the bear never lost...it was a man named Grizzly Adams who alibied that story. His credability is one of the poorest of all accounts, hes the same person who alibied that in mexico, a grizzley bear tore apart a african lion an killed him...well since we live in the era of internet via= [Fact checking], news paper archives are availiable to re-read its credability. It turns out that the bear dident even kill the lion stated by multiple news-paper archives who most were at the event, unlike Grizzly adams whos just mentioning hear say...heres the article ...




So you see^^^ no death, but some articles have stated the score card went to the bear, for throwing the lion, but the bear dident kill the lion, in fact the bull dident even kill the lion, yet the bull killed the bear. So grizzly admams story about the bear won every time is likely a hear say as well, because he goes on in saying, that a bear can break a bulls neck with a single chop, when there isint any creditable occaision that has ever happened in fact the records of creditable pit fights incorperating a adult bear an adult spanish fighting bull, the bull has won nearly every time (which I do have the records to prove it).

An as for your gesture of a bears bite, a tigers skull is bigger than a grizzly's, an a lions skull is even larger than a tigers, so I dont think a bear can bite harder than either, not to mention a bears bones are more robust, but a lions is just as dense, so breaking each others bones will come in the same fashion of who exerts more power efficently.

In comparisons of who actually won more, there is only 6 accounts of a bear killing a lion, compared to almost 20 accounts of a lion killing a grizzly, black bear, an polar bear...here

Lion killing Bears accounts
-
1.1902 lion named roosevlet killed peary the polar bear.

2. lion named brutus kills polar bear.

3. lion kills polar bear 1955 By Alfred Court.[Book]Pages 131-132,
http://www.worthpoint.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Life-With-Big-Cats.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_y2wHaYYEsJw/Saowc4ij0-I/AAAAAAAACzI/uw1xcq-YVxQ/s400/court+act.bmp
4. lion kills polar bear Louis Roth, forty years with jungle killers, [Book]
page 204-205.

5.1893 Pezon in limoges, Leo the lion maul’s polar bear

6.Boltimore the lion kills russian grizzley

7. Lion stale mate’s enormous grizzley bear
THE OAKLAND TRIBUNE APRIL 1, 1895 "A DRAW" PARNELL FIGHTS A BIG BEAR.
THE LOS ANGELES TIMES APRIL 2, 1895 "BRUIN THROWS LEO
At 4 P.M. yesterday, in the bull ring at New Laredo, Mexico, the African lion Parnell (500 pounds) fought a terrible battle with an enormous grizzly bear of the American type (750 pounds). The attendance was large. The animals fought desperately for two rounds until completely exhausted, but contrary to expectation, neither was killed. It was a bloody combat.
The crowd went wild when twice the American grizzly threw his African opponent and erstwhile king of beasts, so hard upon the ground that once, had time been called according to the usual rules, the lion would have been counted out
Throughout the battle the lion showed more agility and treachery.
Parnell is owned by Colonel F. Daniel Boone, the lion tamer, and is the beast that killed its keeper at the Midwinter Fair.
The bear is somewhat larger and heavier than the lion, and was secured at New Orleans where he killed two keepers.
It is the first time on record that such a combat has taken place. Mr Zarcombe, editor of the Laredo Times, was fortunate enough to secure four excellent instantaneous photographs of the battle. The fight took place in a large circular steel cage twenty feet in diameter and fifteen feet in height.
No more thrilling spectacle was ever witnessed than the spring made by the lion as he bounded into the cage, with a magnificent leap fully fifteen feet, and grappled with his antagonist.
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab270/Grrraaahhh/Bears/SFEX2.jpg
http://www.easilysharing.com/images/68039572182607073085.jpg
8. Lion kills bruin the grizzly bear...



9.Lion kills bear
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/books_003-25.png
10.
lion kills tiger and bear Source (full fight): http://paperspast.natlib....=d&d=TH18991223.2.87
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/imageserver/imageserver.pl?oid=TH18991223.2.87&area=9&width=365&color=32&ext=gif&key
11. Lioness kills atlas bear in the roman arena
http://books.google.com/books?id=nhhdJ-fkywYC&pg=PA12&lpg=PA12&dq=lion+fights+bear+kills+dead&source=bl&ots=1Nw9g0BYw1&sig=awold4MzsrWOIwxuDRUqG6nU04M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xHkGUMzXDuil2AXP1_DDBQ&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ
12.lion strangle’s an kills 1 out of 7 bears
http://books.google.com/books?id=V0JSVvpZvYYC&pg=PA26&lpg=PA26&dq=menageries+lion+fights+fighting+kills+tiger&source=bl&ots=ZczqFNg_1H&sig=TQznMOxQv5-vXhywYepZXvtWtbw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-I8GUNnoI8Hi2QWCvKnOBQ&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAjgK
13. lion kills 2 leopards an fights bear
http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab95/boldchamp1/boldchamp/Malelionkills2leopards1.jpg
http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab95/boldchamp1/boldchamp/Malelionkills2leopards2.jpg
http://newspaperarchive.com/logansport-journal/1893-09-27/
14. lion killing bear Tapestry 16th century
http://www.christies.com/lotfinderimages/D53533/a_flemish_game_park_tapestry_mid-16th_century_originally_part_of_a_lar_d5353383h.jpg
15.
Lion kills bear in the areana
Liokos is not allowed to retire into his cage this time, further infuriating him. The final match is now on between him and the heavily favored bear named Shardik. Diana bets against Shardik hoping that he will be killed. She despises Senator Palladius for making a gift of him to her. The bastard has hated her ever since she ignored his amorous advances during the Saturnalia festivities a couple of months ago. She hopes that the senator loses heavily on this bout. She has learned from her spies that he has bet heavily on Shardik. She has sent her agents around the city to find out what animal the senator is terrified of in order to give him that as gift in return.

Shardik enters the arena and the two animals cautiously eye each other at a distance. Liokos begins his attack by crawling very close to the ground, appearing to be as small as possible to his opponent. Liokos charges him without any further hesitation. Shardik gets a paw up in time to prevent Liokos from getting him by the neck. This has just cost him his paw and part of his foreleg now ripped to shreds. He falls backward with the lion falling on top of him and going to town with his lower claws on the hapless bear's belly. The bear tries desperately to kick him off with his three remaining limbs but by now Liokos has him by the throat and quickly dispatches him with a violent shake of his great maned head. The crowd explodes into applause.

The winner of the Venationes is Liokos the lion, owned by Arminius Reccanellus. The only ones happier than him are the bookies who took in millions of cesterces on the favorite Shardik...and of course Diana who has finally gotten rid of the hated Shardik


Humbly submitted from the stands
http://www.crystalwebvision.com/aedil/april5.htm
16. lion kills big bear
Poor Sampo, the recently acquired sloth bear at Mundy's Zoo, is no more, because Bully, a pugnacious young lion literally "cut him dead"
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/baltsun/access/1761246562.html?FMT=CITE&FMTS=CITE:AI&type=historic&date=Nov+28%2C+1906&author=&pub=The+Sun+(1837-1985)&desc=LION+KILLS+BIG+BEAR&pqatl=google
17. Daytona Beach Morning Journal - Apr 6, 1950
Calif A mother bear, defending her two cubs, fought a losing battle with a powerful African lion early yesterday at the Alameda County Zoo. ...

18.
A fight between a lioness and a bear at Bostock's zoo in the cyclorama building yesterday resulted in the death of the bear in just about one round
Fight at Bostock's Zoo Was a Very Brief One. Animals Had Been Let Out for an Airing and Bruno Started Hostilities. Queenie Struck Him on the Head and Sunk Her Teeth Into His Neck.
Mar 5, 1902
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/boston/access/689336482.html?dids=689336482:689336482&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&date=Mar+05%2C+1902&author=&pub=Boston+Daily+Globe&desc=LIONESS+KILLS+A+BEAR.&pqatl=google

Crap, I put the Edward an Dan account on the top an forgot to erase it on the third colome, on my last post... dam, I cant edit it, I'll correct my main archive so it dosent happen again.

My bad.

Originally posted by Venkytalks Hi Prime. Very interesting collection of articles from many on this interesting topic. I dont have any actual data on the subject.  But I would really not try to compare zoo tigers and zoo lions or captive animals because they are very different in the wild. Adult male lion and adult male Bengal tiger are a fairly even match for size. Tiger is stronger weight for weight and more agile. It is also a lot more cunning and wily. The lion is more courageous and would not back down from a fight - whereas the tiger would avoid the fight unless it was sure of winning.  If a smaller lion comes across a larger tiger, it would still attack, even if it lost the fight. If a smaller tiger comes across a larger lion, the tiger would run away and change its territory. If a lone adult male lion and tiger matched for size were in the same area, the tiger would know about the lion before the lion even realised there was a tiger around. The tiger would definitely not tolerate a lion in its area. It would probably stalk and pick its terrain - perhaps in the water where the tiger is more comfortable and the lion would be at a disadvantage - or just after the lion has eaten a hefty meal and is sluggish.  And then the tiger would kill it. <span style="line-height: 1.4;">If the matched tiger wandered by chance in front of a lion, the tiger would run away. The lion would charge and chase it, but the tiger would probably get away. The tiger would never fight at a disadvantage.</span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;"></span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;">The tiger never wants to hurt itself and usually attackes those which are smaller and weaker then itself, where victory is certain.</span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;"></span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;">The lion doesnt mind getting injured and would fight regardless of the consequence. It would never back down from a fight.</span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;"></span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;">Which is why it will always be the king of the beasts - because of its nature and not its absolute strength.</span>

Hey Venky house it goin,

I can agree with that, it makes alot of sense if you analyze there living patterns, lions are social an have pecking orders like wolves an hyenas do, so being that they are use to pushing each ther around it revolves around the leader ship an monarch role, where they can afford to get injured because they can rely on the pride for a fall back plan, where as a tiger being mostly solitary has to be asure or extremely confident that he will win the fight, because he must always take care of himself, a slight injury can lead to being unable to hunt, which for being solitary would lead to starvation. So it is safe to say just on that catagoire of social patterns, a lion will always be more willing to fight than the tiger let alone the many other reasons the lion has that protains to being more of a better fighter, a lion is a very good hunter too, but I think in stealth an dexterity a tiger can some what be called a better "solitary" hunter to an extent.

As for the tiger attacking the lion through ambush, it would only work in a very, very dense jungle, out in the open plains, wooded areas, deserts an other places where they co-exsisted once before... the lion will have the better camouflage that blends in with bushes an thickets of grass. Not to mention there are nomadic lions, an its fairly possible to have a 1 on 1 in the wild for it has been well documented, but averagely a lion lives with a pride, so an ambush would be a suicide ticket once the whole pride is alerted by the comotion.

But I do agree that the best an highest creditable form of an account should be in the wild, circus an captive accounts are reliable to a degree but the best should be wild ones, but even finding an account where they are same aged an sex along with status would be hard to find.

So as of right now the search continues to find more wild encounters, alot of people dont know that lions lived in jungles too an boust out ignorant rants thaat lions shouldent be called King of the beast, so I have found prime places where they co-exsisted once in India, heres what I got so far with substantial proof...

Biologist: Dan Metcalfe

~Brisbane, Queensland, Australia

The word jungle comes from the Sanskrit 'jangala' which refers to a dense dry thicket, typically a seasonally dry monsoon forest, and one in which lion would certainly be one of the top predators.* Popular literature took the term and applied it in ignorance to many vegetation types which are more structurally complex than the relatively simple forests which North Americans and Europeans are used to, generating confusion along the way?* This has only been exacerbated by popular culture again promulgating the notion of the lion as the king of the jungle, which is patently ridiculous even in jangala, where lions would face competition from leopard and wild dogs, challenges from rhino and elephant, and at least young lion face a risk of predation from dogs, pythons and other predators.

Rainforest has been adopted as a term largely replacing the popular use of jungle, but again this is a term with a specific meaning to do with water relations (rainfall and evaporation rates) and is recognized in many differs forms, including tropical and temperate types.


The game animals of India, Burma, Malaya, and Tibet:
being a new and revised edition of 'The great and small game of India, Burma, and Tibet,*(Google eBook)
Richard Lydekker
R. Ward, limited, 1907 - 408 pages
The Indian Lion
Going back to earlier days, we find in the Oriental Sporting Magazine for 1832 over the signature of "Collector," whose address is given as Baroda, a full account of two sportsmen shooting a large lion off elephants; and in the Bengal Sporting Magazine of October 1838 a writer signing himself "Kattywar" states that he shot eleven lions between the 14th and 24th of May, to which three more were added between the 19th and 27th of July. Throughout the later volumes of the Bengal Sporting Magazine, the India Sporting Review and the revived Oriental Sporting Magazine, which followed it, there are occasional articles descriptive of lion-shooting; and in the Asian for June 30, 1885, Colonel Martin related how he and General Travers killed two lions on a hill to the west of Goona in Gwalior in 1860, and two years later he and Colonel Beadon at Patulghur, some seventy miles north-west of Goona, bagged no less than eight. One of the last lions killed in Central India was shot by Sir Montague Gerrard at Cheen Hill, nine miles from Goona, on Waterloo Day 1872; and in the Asian of April 7, 1893, mention is made of another shot by Colonel Hill in 1873. I° Guzerat—exclusive of Kathiawar— the last survivor is said to have been killed in 1888. Since that date there have been no lions elsewhere than in the Gir.
In the wild district between Saugor and Jhansi lions were by no means very uncommon about forty years ago. In 1866 two engineers engaged in the construction of the railway between Allahabad and Jabalpur shot one close to the line; and about thirty years before lions were comparatively common in the Ahmedabaddistrict, while in the first and second decades of the last century they were to be met with in Sind and as far to the east as Palamow and Rewa.
http://books.google.com/books?id=I7QrAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA289&lpg=PA289&dq=lions+in+goona&source=bl&ots=LApc3WoCqk&sig=QJTRA0dkkaGMny0k4047EERpHOA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UxU9UJ6lEuH9ygH9wIHgBw&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

A Book of Man Eaters
Mittal Publications
It is curious that, thirty years after the last lion was killed in hariana, notraditions of the animal remained in that part of the country. It was still found in guzerat in 1857, and it extended into the Saugor and Narbadaterritorries. In 1847 one was killed in the Damoh district by a native hunter; in 1850 two were seen near goona. In 1865 a party of officers stationed at Morar in gwalior, as described in the Oriental Magazinefor 1871, found three lions and killed two tweleve miles west of that place.No lions had been seen near gwalior for twenty years, although they were still pretty plentiful about seventy miles to the south. In 1866 a party of three, engaged in the construction of the Jubbulpore railway, killed a lion a short distanceto the west of the eightieth mile from Allahabad near the village of Punta in the Rajof Pattachar.
http://books.google.com/books?id=BfCthJZx5RwC&pg=PA74&lpg=PA74&dq=lions+in+goona&source=bl&ots=bEXCWP9i5h&sig=1agb8C37tNNJ8i-PwNJHS28eVns&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6hk9UIzKDajaywH-xIDwAg&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAQ

Locations above^ graphed on a map of India showing there Ranges
Proof that lions districts and habitats ranged all across of India's Jungles...

Asiatic lion shot in Jungle

Palamau 1814:
From the Alamgirnama we learn that the Northern frontier of Palamau was only 50 miles from Patana the seat of the Chero Raja was something of a city. It was fairly well populated with many bazaars and protected by two strong Forts, one on the summit of neighbouring hill, the other on the plain. There are two extensive forts of bricks and stone which are worth a visit. The walls, which are in fair preservation, are about 5 feet in thickness, and that the old fort bears marks of canon balls and bullets in many places . The gate leading to the old fort, the court room, and temple and Zanana quarters of the Raja as also the two deep but silted up wells in the old fort are very interesting.

Most interesting of all is the massive and beautifully carved stone gate ‘The Nagpuri gate’in the new fort and a round room, in which a well had been sunk to provide a supply of drinking water incase of a siege. The Auranga river flows close by. There are high hills and dense jungles all around. On the frontier, there were three great Forts, viz, Kothi,Kunda and Devagan , and it was against these that Daud khan proceeded to march.
http://palamu.nic.in/palamufort.htm

Mount Abu 1872:
Nature Trails (Jungle Trails)
History of Mount Abu
The history of Mount Abu is as diverse as the city itself. It was once a part of the Chauhan kingdom of Rajasthan and served as a summer resort for the Rajput kings of the region. After that, it was leased by the British government from the then Maharaja of Sirohi for use as the headquarter of the resident to Rajputana (another name for Rajasthan).

Mount Abu was the home of many saints and sages in the old days. Legend has it that all the 330 million gods and goddesses of the Hindu pantheon used to visit this holy mountain. It is also the place where the great saint Vashishth lived and performed a yagna (sacrificial worship on a fire pit) to create four Agnikula (four clans of fire) to protect the earth from demons. The yagna was supposed to have been performed near a natural spring, which emerged from a rock shaped like a cow's head. According to another legend, once sage Vashishth's cow Nandini was trapped in a deep gorge and could not free herself. The sage appealed to Lord Shiva for assistance. The Lord sent Saraswati, the divine stream, to help flood the gorge so that the cow could float up. Vashishth then decided to ensure that such mishaps did not occur in future. He asked the youngest son of Himalaya, the king of mountains to fill the chasm permanently. This he did with the assistance of Arbud, the mighty snake. This spot came to be known as Mount Arbud and was later changed to its present form - Mount Abu. This place is held in reverence by Jains as well since Jain scriptures record that Lord Mahavira, the 24th Jain Tirthankar (spiritual leader), also visited Mount Abu and blessed the city.
http://www.mountabu.nic.in/naturetrail.htm

Rewah 1866:
The Rewah jungles are famous for their big game. Tigers are met Fauna. with in considerable numbers, while bears, panthers, tambar (Cervus unicolor), chinkdra (Gazella benetii) and other species usually found in Peninsular India abound. Wild fowl of all classes are common throughout its area.
The climate of Rewah is subject to considerable extremes of tem- Climate perature, especially in the hilly tract where the heat is often excessive, (Table I). while the cold season is of short duration.
~Speeches, Volume 2*(Google eBook)
Henry Charles Keith Petty-FitzMaurice Lansdowne (Marquess of)
Office of the Superintendent of Government Print., India, 1894 - 706 pages
http://books.google.com/books?id=u5ZFAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA559&lpg=PA559&dq=Rewah+jungles&source=bl&ots=nuz7lJwtqJ&sig=Lv53IHCOmV3a7bEMQjK0sBfab50&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4EICUa6aE-eujAK1xoGoDQ&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAA

Damoh 1847:
Tribal people comprise an important part of Damoh’s demographic set-up. They mainly live in jungles and remote areas of the city. They mostly depend on natural resources, while the rest of the population depends on agriculture for livelihood.
http://zeenews.india.com/blog/damoh-%e2%80%93-the-centre-of-india_394.html





A page from Kelileh o Demneh dated 1429, from Herat , a Persian translation of the ancient Indian Panchatantra (These tales depict characters based on local wild animals from the jungles of India, including the Asiatic / Indian-Persian lion) derived from the Arabic version — Kalila wa Dimna

India: From Indus Valley Civlization to Mauryas
By Gyan Swarup Gupta, Pramod Kumar
Lions and tigers in the indu valley
http://books.google.com/books?id=jbjT9GG__nEC&pg=PA72&dq=gupta+lions+fight+tigers&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Y2WhUNWZMon2iwKd3oHICw&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBA

http://img3.etsystatic.com/000/0/6139677/il_fullxfull.242973691.jpg

Damoh's Jungle/Rainforest
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3126/2648846236_c8e6c218d0_z.jpg

Lion attacking tiger in Jungle by Delocroix
http://www.art-prints-on-demand.com/kunst/eugene_delacroix/lion_savaging_tiger_hi.jpg

Indian lion resting in Jungle...
http://ak0.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/1839541/preview/stock-footage-long-shot-lion-resting-in-jungle.jpg

^Rewa, somaliland, Barsa swamps of bengal,
http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/ph/web-highlight/DP147451.jpg

Lion defeating tiger in Jungle
http://gallery.myff.org/gallery/1342914/lion-images-02.jpg


The Wonders of the Jungle


Sarath Kumar Ghosh
pubOne info LLC, Sep 15, 2010
Many a man who has met a lion in the jungle by day has escaped in saftey by just standing still making no sound and no motion.
http://books.google.com/books?id=bFFVjC5vLDIC&pg=PT116&lpg=PT116&dq=lion+in+the+jungle&source=bl&ots=SVV_YMwegI&sig=WVltuM7UY35QJVMc2Uxo5nrQWFU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KkFQUJnCFcaGjALq5YDoBg&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAw
Punta raj of pattacachar, patalgraph, bakhtiari photograph of a Indian lion
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Panthera_leo_persica_male.jpg


The Jungle Survivor: A Thriller About the African Jungle
By Stephen L Takomana (Pe), Stephen L Takomana
http://books.google.com/books?id=OYf_VULlsLIC&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=lion+in+the+jungle&source=bl&ots=EWrcZrcZlz&sig=XrKh-eERyLcEEpK75pFvioJNTUY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=W0NQUMO-FMi6iwLB6YHIDg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAjgK

Jungle Crackers
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/614gW5WbgGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg


3 asiatic lions fighting 3 bengal tigers in gir forest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBdpiIxMnMM

Lion in jungle of India killing an eating croc
http://www.trendwatching.com/newsletters/DEC05/rousseau.jpg

India's Art prints of lions in jungles
Lion hunting in jungles
Asiatic lion in jungle
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/Asiatic_african_lions.jpg/220px-Asiatic_african_lions.jpg
Asiatic lion feeding in jungle
http://www.theartstory.org/images20/works/rousseau_henri_4.jpg

Artfact of a lion killing a Guar in a dense Jungle
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/7128/7128-h/images/image_045.jpg

Indian lion with other big cats near Jungle
http://www.profimedia.si/photo/asiatic-lion-lioness-bengal-tiger-leopard-jaguar/profimedia-0000847275.jpg

The Jungle Lion
Jungle cruise
http://www.matterhorn1959.com/blog1/2011junglecruise3.jpg
-

Sociobiology: The New Synthesis

By Edward O. Wilson
Lions and tigers did coexist over most of India until the 1800's, when lions began to be reduced even more quickly than tigers by intensive hunting and deterioration of the environment.
http://books.google.com/books?id=v7lV9tz8fXAC&pg=PA9&dq=lion+tiger+coexisting&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mm8QUdWrH8vMigKfh4GABg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA
~Harvard University Press, 2000 - Science - 697 pages

Science Under Siege: Defending Science

Lions and tigers once coexisted naturally in India, and although they are
outwardly very different, they can mate to create tigons or ligers.
http://books.google.com/books?id=w8e5-URInCUC&pg=PA121&dq=lion+tiger+coexisted+india&hl=en&sa=X&ei=a3MQUeG5J6jkiwLa_IGgDg&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAw

The Asiatic or Persian Lion (Panthera leo persica, Meyer 1826) in Palestine and the Arabian and Islamic Region.*
By: Norman Ali Bassam Ali Taher Khalaf-von Jaffa.
Note: This article was published in "Gazelle : The Palestinian Biological Bulletin". Number 58, October 2006, pp. 1-13.

The Asiatic or Persian Lion (Panthera leo persica) is a subspecies of lion (Panthera leo).
The last remnant of the Asiatic Lion, which in historical times ranged from Caucasus to Yemen and from Macedonia to India through Arabia and Iran (Persia), lives in the Gir Forest National Park of western India.
http://www.oocities.org/jaffacity/Asiatic_Lion.html.tmp


I guess the search will go on, the places would be most suspected to find wild encounters would be India, Pakistan, Arabia, Perssia, Armenia and a few other places that consist of Bengal tigers, and Caspian tigers who would most likely have encountered perssian lions, Indian/asiatic lions...no dought searching in the right places will eventually pull out some historical records, there are so many empires of the people of India, surely a few have some historical significance thats preserved.

So I'll see what I can find a little later....I'll spark you laters Vennky.

Alohas

I agree that a Tiger is alot more suitable to swampy terrains, marsh pits, dense jungles an forest with an abundentcy of trees, they're physiology more suits an acrobaical physic. Better swimmers? Definitely, climers? About the same, they both are very large so it has to be a very well brached tree to climb, an average straight up an down tree can only be climbed by smaller cats an small to mid sized bears, being to big will not allow the bigger carnivores to be sustained on thin braches an both average at 420 pounds an can get to be as large as 300 Kg in the wild.

Stalking is possible, but lions have very accute hearing and smell too, so it could as well be both ways, again it would only work if the habitat is very thick an dense with plants an vegetational back grounds, because even if the tiger leaps from behind a one shot kill is alot harder then it sounds espeacially when its on something so similar as him self, thats like saying a tiger will stalk and ambush another tiger, I think they'll have enough dignity to alert the other an have a territorial dispute, due to sent markings an out call-roaring to alert others they are in there territory.

As for the Videos of them fighting, there are some good content of tigers holding there own an some manage-ing to get the best of some lions...which isint hard to belive because after all he is a kin of the lion and anatomically known by most similarly the same cat just out side wise has a different apperance it will also depend individually, not whole speices wise when both are isolated to an individual status, but the majority of videos show the tiger just throwing wildy, they hardly seem to want to stick around for the full fight, because most are captive they tend to have no choice (confined in the same cage)...but its well evident that they are very explosive...which leads to there down fall. Being too explosive can drain your stamina, any boxer can tell you that, throwing an missing can so even more, which almost all the videos that exsist show tigers bursting out with flurrys an only landing about half to just about 2/6 hits land, which shows they dont fight in a calculated way, a better boxer for sure in terms using both paws, but I cant agree with a better fighter in the overall. Lions are extremely gifted in fighting, thats basically the male lions job, tigers fight too, but only for mating and territorial disputes, thats only 2 reasons they fight...lions have many reasons they "must" fight, again...

Male Tigers Reasons for fighting:
#1 To challange the other (lone) male to gain rights to mate with the female.
#2 To ward off any other tiger he dosent like in his area.

Male Lions Reasons for fighting:
#1 To challange (Multiple) lions to gain rights to mate with the females.
#2 To Ward off nomadic males that can potentially kill there cubs.
#3 Fight amoungs each other in the pride for who eats first.
#4 Fight territeriol rival prides.
#5 Fight there own brothers an uncles an dads in high agressional disputes.
#6 Train there siblings an off springs that is constant through out there intire lives.

So being a better fighter, can only come with experince, as you can see ^ lions will always fight more than tigers, so the lion is always the more practiced and experinced at it. Its the same concept of a human fighter, if you put in an match a person who fought only once or twice in his life against a boxer or mma fighter that constantly goes to the gym an trains with his coaches, the one who trains more would be more knowledge-able in fighting an would be more "Game" in fighting in both pysicaly and mentally. Which would tend to vary also in how constant is the tiger, for humans can lose there edge an become sloppy after leaving the sport an become out of shape mentally and physicaly, but lions live in prides so they are constantly and consistantly gamed fighters, thats why wolves and dogs can trump bears an the average big cat, because they are pack affiliated, one on one not so much, but through tactics an working together wolves can bring down even the biggest of buffalos, an when a wolf achives the status of Alpha, even more so it has been known for the Alpha to be able to contend in single combat with predators an challangers much larger then them selves, through experince. The same concept of martial arts, if you learn enough size dosent really account for anything, experince trumps size and power almost every time.

Mentally staying game plays a huge roll too, a tiger isint much of a fighting machine, hes a killing machine...he needs a kill quick an fast thats why hes so explosive, a lion is more of a fighting machine which will be like a smart boxer, he will bide his time for the right moment and is confortable in ware-ing down his opponent, he dosent just go for the kill, the accumilation in bites and slashes will eventually add up, the lion as Clyde beatty states an what is evident in almost every video clip of lions and tigers fighting...likes the fight standing up, as you gestured an whats on videos, tigers more so go for the insta kill which leads to grappling and rolling over to get a fast throat grab, yet the lion like a mma striker will wait for the right time for a hay-maker, that is why they usually use one paw, it can generate more force while 2 paws requires to be used in a standing posistion, which diminishes its out-put power, lions fight in a 3-point stance like a foot ball player which generates more force, look at a foot ball player, if they started off the hike standing straight up, less tourqe an foward (powered) motion can be generated, so they start off low to the ground in a 3-point stance, alot of force can be generated that way, that is why foot ball players and sumo wrestlers take that position.

Another impliment in the lion being slightly superior to the tiger is his equipment/anatomy, sure tigers have a slightly bigger fang, only by a few centimeters, but the fact is the lion has fangs and claws just like the tiger, sure the tiger is slightly faster than the lion, but its not significant enough, thats like saying a olympic runner can beat up a olympic boxer because he can run faster an produce movement faster. So both have basically what the other has minorly distributed slightly different....but...the lion has something the tiger nor any other cat has, a Mane.

Power of the lion’s Mane


#1
Video proof #1 lions mane protects his neck
80% of swipe or bite is protected by the mane, as you can see the mane protect’s bite’s that can usually add up on a tiger, yet it has no effect on the lion in terms the lion can completely focus what he is doing which is draging around and mauling the tiger, which in the big cat fight world, every bite count’s…


#2.
Video proof #2 lions mane protects his neck
If it were a nother tiger or a maneless lion that first lunge should have been enough, but the lions mane is able to halt multiple attempts of a throat an neck grab.

.
#3
Experts opinion of the lions mane
lion’s mane protect’s male lion’s in combat
[ur]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_FtEEFZq_s[/url]

#4
Experts opinion of the lions mane
The lion also is protected around the neck by the heavy mane, which is an advantage. There is one instance I remember where a full grown lion and tiger engaged in combat, by unforeseen chance of course. It was when the John O’ Brien Show had its winter quarters in Philadelphia and I was connected with it. “A lion and a tiger were in a compartment cage, with a partition between. In some manner this partition was battered down in the night and the two big fellows got together. They had probably been issuing challenges to each other and promising what they would do to one another if the chance came. When morning arrived we found the two in the lion’s cage, the tiger dead and the lion all chew and clawed to pieces, but still full of fight.”
~George Conklln, “Adventures With a Circus”

#5
Experts opinion of the lions mane
Samantha Stephens, says the lions mane might not make a big difference, but it might be that crucial amount of difference.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK9etg51Do8

#6
Documented account the mane protected a lion in a fight
Lion’s mane save’s him from tiger’s throat attempt, an also aidded the tiger to release due to breaking his breathing pattern.


#7
Animal Expert Clyde beattys opinion on the lions mane
Not so with the lion who fights like a dog with only his front paws and teeth. He carries the fight to his opponent, centering the attack on the tiger's throat while his heavy mane protects his own throat. And with his extra weight in the forequarters, ...
http://books.google.com/books?id=vNsDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA563&lpg=PA562&ots=3lTHEPWrtE&dq=lions+mane+protects+fights&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html

#8
Kruger parks opinion
http://www.krugerpark.co.za/faq-on-lion.html
The mane is also a means of protection to the face and neck during fights between male lions.

#9
Craig packer reinstate’s lion mane’s are for protecting



#10 Kailash Sankhala Indian zoologist opinion on the mane
http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad19/JinenFordragon/kailash-sankhala-tiger-trust-1.jpg
There is no direct evidence, but if we examine the probabilities in the case of a confrontation between the two some inferences can be drawn. In a fight would de unable to get close to the vital joint of a lion’s neck because of his thick mane, but the tiger is vulnerable to the lion. The film showed that the tiger was at an immediate disadvantage. Tigers use a throat grip as their primary means of killing and the lion's thick protective mane prevented the tiger gaining a hold on the throat joint. On the other hand, the tiger had no special protection, so was vulnerable to attack. In this fight, the tiger was killed. In any inter-species confrontation lions would also have the advantage of the who pride. But in my opinion a tiger is no match even for a single lion of equal strength.
Tiger! The Story of the Indian Tiger, by Kailash Sankhala.
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A lion having a mane can give a huge advantage in multiple ways such as...

#1 It can make the tiger miss-judge the distance to get to the throat in high pace movements, ctaching only hair when trying to swipe or bite the throat while the lion sways and dodges.

#2 It can intimidate the tiger in thinking hes fighting a much bigger opponent than himself with the same visiual aspect attributes such as claws an teeth but the mane giving the illusion of almost 2 times his mass, which mentally would intimidate the tiger of not being sure of himself.

#3 It can protect the major kill point the tiger always tends to go for the neck, the shoulders, and areas around the head, either by sheilding the attack dimishing 2/5ths of its out put power, or tangling the tigers clays long enough for the tiger to lose stamina.

#4 If the mane is a Battle mane, thats similar to the Barbary lions mane that stretches all the way to the stomach, it can protect another way the tiger kills which is by dissembowling, which the tiger has done on your average (only head maned) lion before.

.... or it could just as well be the small enough leverage that decides the fight through the lion having just enough durbility factors over the tiger that protects the accumilations of many botes and clawings, if the two best fighters were equally matched in Mma, and one was permitted to wear a head gear for protection, then most likely he would win by durability factors, while one will be getting the full knock out punch effect, the one with the head gear would have only about 1/3rd of the puches effect.

So Again, I cant agree that a tiger is a better fighter, maybe a better individual hunter, the more acrobatical cat of the two, more explosive, faster, cunning, stalker and more similar to what a human concept of how a Boxer "looks like" but a lion is more proned and exposed to fighting, better equiped which protains to being more durable fighter, more experinced, an in my opinion is Ultimately the better fighter of the two.

Yeah I can agree with almost everything you said
I really dont know what was there eco system an main predation animals, most likely Boar, Deer, Guar...an what ever they hunt in africa has almost the same things in india of course excluding giraffes and such, an they wernt in great amounts of herds more so just smaller quanitys.

As for muscle toned, the tiger has stronger back limbs for better leaping and acrobatics, speed and dexterity, there fore arms have thicker muscle for grabing and holding which usually they either throw flurys or grapple and hold on, while the lions have bigger broader and stronger frontal upper bodys, which aids stronger swipes and flipping things on there back side, without the twisting so much and flipping around, his stance is more broad an stiff more so the tiger is flexible an usually resorts to the death roll, while the lion likes to work the body an fight standing up, you can tell the difference like in Mma, a jujitsu guy like to get the person down to do there signature moves, while the striker will stay on his feet an try an K'O him from the standing position the same as the tiger trying to grapple an roll the lion while the lion tends to swing away with Knock out one hitters.

Yeah... hills an steep terrain is also more suited for the tiger, hes more built like the snow leopard, which caters to balance. Lions in India have pretty big prides too, they usually still consist of 2 males an 8 females an can rival there african cousins too to just about 30 lions in one pride...
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g312616-d970103-r131173411-Makalali_Private_Game_Lodge-Hoedspruit_Limpopo_Province.html

Africa though consist of more males in coalitions an prides
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TyYGfELp26w/UBkguV9xpTI/AAAAAAAA1LM/fIZZpoQm6qE/s1600/resting-lions-tanzania_56400_990x742.jpg
http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv42/stijnbelgium/Notch2.jpg
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6135/5937743599_666d904559_z.jpg
http://www.flysaavacations.com/img/products/311/Mapogo_lion_males_366x207.jpg

Tigers have had been recorded to have bunched up in coaltions before as quite rare, but the most I have ever seen was 4, still very far away from contending at max potentials against lions for territory...
[ur]http://www.stevebloom.com/images/b/005786-JM1.jpg[/url]


As for predations in general, both take what ever they can find an can consist of small animals too like fish, fox's an rabbits, but as for big game in general lions hunt much bigger animals weather with the pride or alone, its quite rare for a tiger to take on a full grown healthy guar an even survive the struggle, but lions are more consistant with even larger animals than guar...
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2148312&highlight=lion+tiger&page=14

Lionesses are very good at hunting too, but I think the tiger/tigress as for he jungle setting is a better suited predator too, I also always favored the female tiger over the femlae lion in general an in fighting, but am learning that the lioness has been recorded holding here own to even male tigers an has a few records of killing even male tigers in captivity...

#1
A female lion and a Bengal tiger tangled suddenly and violently Sunday afternoon...Tiger Takes Beating .In .Tangle With Lion....
http://www.google.com/search?q=lion+tangles+with+tiger&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar:1&tbm=nws&ei=f8kjUeuJKMqEiwK5joHADw&start=20&sa=N

#2
Calcutta zooligical garden’s a lioness kills a adult male tiger (New’s article)



#3
The mengerine…Lions will not stay in the same cage with tigers. We tried this once, putting a lioness in with a Bengal tiger. There was a fierce fight and the lioness nearly killed the Bengal.Chapter V11
http://www.circushistory.org/History/OnRoad2.htm

Most likely a male tiger will kill a lioness averagley, but for a lioness to win shows that {male lions mane's) catter to being superior to either tiger/tigress an lioness reguardless if its pound for pound. I really never heard of a female lion killing her male mate, one on one, but of course in teritorial fights the females usually always out number the males almost 8 to 1, so they will atleast drive him out...but I'm sure they have killed a few here and there.

Now, for the wild co-exsisting part, they actually have many times met already, we just have to find more information mainly from the 1700's an below periods, Ballou magazine a (Indian local newspaper & magazine) has documented 5 encounters where they met an fought, both challanged the other but no one won, they both were tired an beatin an decided to abondin the fight an head seperate ways, there was even a account recorded by a German zoologist in the mid 1800's one near the Gangis river where a wild lion and wild tiger met an fought a long hard battle both mutilated an torn up, but the lion managed to last long enough to be the victor....

31’st of March, 1851, In the “Landshuter Zeitung” (“Landshut Newspaper”)

A drama at the Ganges.

I’ll tell of one of these terrible fights, one you wouldn’t see again in a hundred years, a scene of blood and death that forever will haunt my mind. […] The lion and his rival, the tiger, need air and space in great quantity. Here, and only here, are they really able to live and to rule. […] (A long description of lions and tigers and how fierce both of them are, the actual event follows now) A Malayan slave ran towards us and shouted: “Lion! Lion! Down there, at the river! It’s a big, fierce lion!”

“One more reason to take shelter in the house,” continued the colonel. “Come, my friends, take the weapons! The lion is a troublesome guest.”

We closed the house’s doors; the slaves got weapons and guarded the basement. We, to welcome this guest admirably, climbed up to the gallery from which we could overlook the Ganges. An unusually big lion walked haughtily down there, not looking around as he does when he has to fight an opponent, but instead ambling slowly and thoughtfully like a philosopher, he walked there. He stopped from time to time to rest a minute, and then continued majestically his way. Under a magnificent palm, he stopped, turned around two times, and finally lay down in the shadow. This was the rest of a magnificent ruler that had nothing to fear from any adversary. He rested easily, as do those who have made no enemies.

Scarcely ten minutes had the lion lain there, when suddenly, he jumped up as though struck by lightning, roaring very deeply and scratching the ground with both hind legs, as though challenging an adversary. He lowered his head and, in a single bound, jumped at the palm’s stem to look about, to the right and left. Then he jumped down to ground to wait again, and his gaze lingered at one particular spot on the horizon.

“An enemy seems to approach,” the colonel said, “a terrible enemy, if we look at the lion’s reaction. I predict that it will be a fierce fight, and many rich people would pay a great sum to see it if they were here right now.”

“And why,” I asked, “don’t they stage some fights from time to time, if they would pay so much?”

“Because what we have here is very rare. The lion won’t fight against a human but against a fierce animal, one as strong as he himself, such as a rhinoceros, an elephant, or a tiger.”

“A tiger! It’s really a tiger!” one of us shouted pointing a finger at the dangerous beast which jumped in huge leaps towards the lion. It was breathtaking, our eyes wandered from the lion to the tiger and from the tiger to the lion. The lion still was lurking. It was a terrible spectacle and we wagered who will win. Now they stood eyeball to eyeball with each other. They’d seen each other and wouldn’t leave unless one of them was lying dead at the ground. The tiger was unbelievably huge and beautiful with his long black stripes distributed all over his yellowish body. His fearful eyes seemed to burn, his head was lowered. We stood, at the most, 200 feet away. The sun shone brightly, so we could see their every move. I don’t think I have to mention that our hearts were in our mouths. The tiger closed in on the lion, but the lion remained calm. In the latter, we could see the force of the calmness in his powerful position; in the tiger, one could believe to see the violent tension of someone who has the impudence to disrespect a close danger, one who had the will to assault it. We could see a certain twitch in his legs, but he wasn’t about to flee. Did the crouching tiger want to kill the lion? I believe it did, and I admire the royal tiger’s courage, he would rather lie down in a burning furnace than be accused of cowardice!

The lion had not moved at all, but we could see what was happening inside him by looking at his erected mane. From time to time, his countenance suggested a submissive gesture. But he, the king of animals, didn’t want to show any fear, but rather boldness, to his opponent. A duel was now inevitable. For the tiger it may be a glorious day, but for the lion it was certainly a festive day.

With one leap, they could grab, bite, tear each other; with one leap they’d jump over the space of 20 feet that separated them from each other. Then, they leaped! The crash equaled the crash of two ships in a tempest! We could hear the bones breaking under the weight of their terrible paws, we could see chunks of flesh falling to the ground. They made no sound, but their gruff moaning indicated their rage and pain. Neither showed superiority and we wondered who would win. If the lion were to think that he had overpowered the tiger, the latter could earn the victory with a single move, shattering the surprised lion.

The fight now lasted 10 minutes, and suddenly, as if they came to an agreement, both loosened their grip to gain their breath again. It was the motionlessness of the rage, but it was the calmness of the king. A few moments later, an unexpected incident which resurrected the fight took place: The tiger, which saw not only his defeat but also his death, used the moment. While his opponent was licking his wounded hind leg, he leaped 10 feet up the palm’s stem and stayed there. The lion looked around and couldn’t see his foe anymore; he roared, looked upwards, and he jumped at the tiger. But in this position it was impossible to continue the fight. They knew that only one of them would survive. The tiger jumped down and the lion followed him, but his leg caused him to shiver. A long fight wasn’t possible any more. Their claws were blunted, their jaws were tired, and they had lost much blood.

The fighters’ jaws were wedged in each other as they bit at each others’ heads; we could feel the bones crushing. Suddenly the tiger retreated, wavered and fell down. The lion seized him with his terrible paws and it seemed like he wanted to punish the defeated opponent for his resistance.

He didn’t loosen his grip, the merciless king of the forest, the feared lord of the wilderness; he tore the tiger apart, he crushed its skull. Suddenly a crocodile appeared out of the river. It seized the lion at his injured hind leg and dragged him into the water. The only remains of this fight were the dead tiger under the palm and some read streams of blood on the water surface.

http://books.google.de/books?id=ghtEAAAAcAAJ&pg=RA1-PA50&dq=l%C3%B6we+tiger+kampf&hl=de&ei=aSZETeLmFYTAswbU6IHVDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=l%C3%B6we%20tiger%20kampf&f=false-

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So you shouldent assume that they never met in the wild or co-exsisted in the same area just because google dosent have an abundentcy of (wild) records on the first look of typing in lion vs tiger, there are many records you just have to find them. If leopards and cheetahs can hold bay a lion an co-exsist with usually going by the golden rule.... when confronted by a lion, Run! A tiger can too co-exsist an avoid the extreme, but of course the tiger is a very proud animal too, he will lay tooth an claw before he goes down, an if its one on one, I would gesture its still fair game on a 50/50 depedning on there status at the time.

The historical documents and artifacts of lions and tigers conflicts through out history of…

{ The continent of Europa}


Fights with lions and tigers were staged for Kings of england.
http://books.google.com/books?id=maQ83GSNQxsC&pg=PA27&dq=King+of+england+lion+tiger+fight&hl=en&sa=X&ei=37chUfmFBsS6iwLelYHQBA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

Lions have been chosen as Englands national symbol because of his high qualities as nobility and courage espeically in warfare.
http://books.google.com/books?id=AOxqFP7kMj8C&pg=PA53&dq=King+of+england+lion+tiger+fight&hl=en&sa=X&ei=a7shUcqhNuGuiQKTqIDwBA&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBDgU

Makes a lot of sense, the tiger being the lions equal in size strength an feriocty, but why would they chose a tiger over a lion on there national symbols when the tiger is known to be more the suspect to flee an the more reluctant to fight with a lion than vice versa, even female lions have been recorded using there ‘lion bravery’ an has challanged tigers submiting them into a panic…

Which is evident in comparing what poets of europe has recorded seeing in those past events, to modern accounts matching there discriptions such as…

{The 15th Century}

Edmund Spenser:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Spenser
~As when a Tiger and a Lioness

Are met at spoiling of some hungry prey,
Both challenge it with equal greediness:
But first the Tiger claws thereon did lay;
And therefore loth to loose her right away,
Doth in defence thereof full stoutly stond:
To which the Lion strongly doth gainsay,
That she to hunt the beast first took in hond;
And therefore ought it have, wherever she it fond.
http://books.google.com/books?id=djIJAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA239&dq=As+when+a+Tiger+and+a+Lioness+spenser+faerie&hl=en&sa=X&ei=w9whUZ3cOomEiwLE2IHwDg&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ

Which we have modern proof that this poets passage from the 15th century is quite accurate with videos of today even lioness besting some male tigers


and of recent times heres account that matches the discription of Edmund spensers occaision…
http://books.google.com/books?id=lltOAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA108&dq=There+was+a+fierce+fight+and+the+lioness+nearly+killed+the+Bengal.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_ZwpUbXBNuaxigLvtYGwBw&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA


Lioness kills male tiger in british menagerie
~Grey River Argus, Volume LVII, Issue 9397, 23 March 1896, Page 4



{The 16th –17th Century}

Allan Ramsay:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Ramsay_(poet)">http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=GRA18960323.2.25



{The 16th –17th Century}

Allan Ramsay:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Ramsay_(poet)

The savage tiger feels the potent flame: The grim majestic lion growls his love To the resounding forest.—Wilder thou Than nature's wildest race, spurn'st at that power To which all nature bows.—But why of these, Of the grim lion, or the spotted lynx, Or wily serpent ?—these have sense and feeling. Even trees inanimate confess the god: See how the vine clings with a fond embrace; The mountain fir, the pine, the elm, the beech, Have each their favour'd mate: they burn, they sigh, &c
http://books.google.com/books?id=A14CAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA98&dq=allan+ramsay+lion+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jcshUZiDJrDXiAK18YDQAg&ved=0CF4Q6AEwCQ

Again, what old lierature an poets recorded still remain evident of todays recordings…




{The 17th Century}

Gotthold ephraim:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthold_Ephraim_Lessing
~The Monthly Christian Spectator. 1851-1859
Lion kills a tiger by bite-ing him in the throat…
http://books.google.com/books?id=CyA2AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA220&dq=lion+fighting+a+tiger+stag&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tqQqUZPZDKediQKKg4DoBg&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBA

Even till today, the same means of attack are persued in the same fashion…
~A lion is kept in a cage at Jeonju Zoo, North Jeolla Province, Wednesday, after attacking and killing a tiger in the zoo. The body of the dead tiger was taken to a veterinary hospital in the zoo. / Yonhap


A rarity accomplishment ^ that the tiger insues, because the tiger cant be the usual victor that results in death for the (male) lion… because of the lions mane will extend the fight an prolong the bout into only a scruffle an dominant win for the tiger, not a kill win which would take too long for the tigers poor stamina to last in the fight. While the same cannot be said for the tiger, a lion having one good hold on the tigers throat an it can be over in minutes, while the tiger will have to absolutely be dominating to actually accumilate a death toll for the lion.



{The 17th- -18th  Century}

Alexander Wilson:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Wilson

The shaggy lion rushes to the place,
With roar tremendous seizes on his prey.
Exasp'rate see 1 the tiger springs away.
Stops short and maddens at the monarch's growl;
And through his eyes darts all his furious soul.
Half willed, yet half afraid to dare a bound.
He eyes his loss, and roars, and tears the ground.
http://books.google.com/books?id=V58xAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA272&lpg=RA1-PA272&dq=The+shaggy+lion+rushes+to+the+place,+a+wilson+poet&source=bl&ots=M5aUYE8RZB&sig=1ZnKox02BxdH_xbprRT5oUp8uS4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BMIhUbytNInIiwKkzIAw&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA

Nothing at all has changed in terms there social traits over the years, still to this day, lions are shown the more aggressive an bolder of the two, proving that historical records from the past are true…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QNywR1OFSQ

Second half explains the lion killing the tiger:
So looked stern Ralphus o’er the flowing coast,
To see his hopes, his tripe and labour lost ;

In rage he kick’d the fragments, when, behold !
Forth from the tripe a monstrous worm unroll’d
Its lazy length, then snarling wild its crest,
In accents shrill the shudd’ring youth addrest,
‘ I am disease ; curs’d be the unknown he
Who mark’d my purpose of destroying thee:

Had it succeeded, hear this, trembling hear,
Next mom had seen thee floating on a bier.’

It spoke, and grinn’d, when Ralph, with vengeful speed,
A rock’s huge fragment da.sh’d down on its head.
Deep groan’d the Wretch in death, Ralph trembling stole
One backward glance, then fled th’ accurs’d bowl.


Just like the historical records, there is a great consistancy over the ages of tigers being equal in stature and battle compositions, but ultimatley the lion in times of warfare the lion will rise up to the occaision and in the end kill the tigr akin to the old records of england still in modern times we have records of that happening like here…

King edward the lion kills Dan the bengal tiger.
http://bks6.books.google.com/books?id=QcWNEqI-wxUC&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&edge=curl&imgtk=AFLRE72FW_x372FbAL-NpvwJ3pMrznyRB9IiH1OtS13bINsx3v4xI5-IjosMriA187vvyzC8YfpX5324ZjkXq9_HbRDXX-9Gkn_fZUzZlBsqETUzimspHjqaYlGXeJM4n-ztyRJxnKFK
http://books.google.com/books?id=QcWNEqI-wxUC&pg=PA70&lpg=PA69&dq=lion+attacks+tiger+menagerie&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html">http://books.google.com/books?id=QcWNEqI-wxUC&pg=PA69&dq=lion+attacks+tiger+menagerie&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sVYEUcbgJKLqiwLv7YHgBA&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBQ
http://books.google.com/books?id=QcWNEqI-wxUC&pg=PA70&lpg=PA69&dq=lion+attacks+tiger+menagerie&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html


George Stubbs

~George Stubbs was born in 1724 in Liverpool, son of a currier and one of five children. He had a minimum of formal instruction: in 1739 he was briefly a pupil of the minor painter Hamlet Winstanley.
At the age of 30, in 1754 he went to Italy by boat. He is said to have gone with no enthusiasm for Italian art, but with a desire to confirm his view that nature, not art, was the only source of inspiration and improvement On the return journey he made a stop in Marocco. It is believed that a scene he saw there inspired his later picture Horse Attacked by a Lion (1762-1765).
http://www.abcgallery.com/S/stubbs/stubbsbio.html


Now to impliment, the tiger on the rock makes alot of sense, for we have records of modern accounts of this portraying the same thing.




You see ^, Those are the exact same things that george stubbs portrayed hundreds of years ago, so the proof is in the consistantcy of the old records, they are not fabrications because majority of the quoted records of modern accounts can match in clean detail of what we have still going on today, what would change?

M. Herbert’s mengerine lion kills male royal bengal tiger. 1851
.
~North jetty Havre Frnace
A rather singular episode took place during a storm in the menagerie of M. Hebert, the naturalist, on the north jetty, at Havre. A fine royal tiger, which had been for some days in one of the cages, had conceived a strong affection for a magnificent lion, and the two animals lived together on the most friendly terms. On the night in quitstlon, whether the animals became alarmed by the violence of the wind, or whether tome cause of quarrel had arisen between them, is not known; but a fight took place, as when M Hebert entered the place in the morning, li- found the tiger strangled, and the lion walking round trie dead body with all the triumph of a conqueror.






{The 18th Century}
Robert Southey:

http://www.nndb.com/people/949/000095664/
Guardant before his feet a Lion lay,
The Saxon Lion, terrible of yore.
Who in his wither'd limbs and lean decay,

The marks of long and cruel bondage bore j
But broken now beside him lay the chain,
Which gall'd and fretted late his neck and mane.

A T.ion too was couch'd before the Bride;
That noble Beast had never felt the chain; Strong were his sinewy limbs and smooth his hide,And o'er his shoulders broad the affluent mane Disbevell'd hung; beneath his feet were laid
Torn flags of France whereon his bed he made.

Full different were those Lions twain in plight.
Yet were they of one brood; and side by side
Of old, the Gallic Tiger in his might
They many a time had met, and quell'd his pride,
And made the treacherous spoiler from their Ire
Cowering and crippled to his den retire.
http://books.google.com/books?id=cTpHAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA759&dq=Robert+southey+lion+tiger+fight&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wL0hUeeHJsm2igKCk4CIAQ&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

Again the past historical records have accounts exactly the same with more modern accounts, like here…
chained-up lion defeats tiger 5 times
“The lion is the king of among beasts in other ways than in looks. I once put a big tiger in a cage with a lion, chaining the lion but giving him slack enough to stand up and turn around. It was a night parade and the red fire was burned on the top of my wagon and the animals became greatly excited. The tiger pounced on the lion but I stopped the battle with the stool upon which I had been setting. Later the fight was renewed, the lion knocking the tiger down five times.”
Source: William H. Blackburne, head keeper of the National Zoological Park,
http://www.google.com/search?q=I%20once%20put%20a%20big%20tiger%20in%20a%20cage%20with%20a%20lion%20William%20H.%20Blackburn&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N&btnG=Search



]
Russian syctians
Lion with a grip on a tigers throat…
http://www.verasir.dk/images/chap21-48.jpg




The Field Naturalist, Volumes 1-2
The Field Naturalist, Volumes 1-2
[By James Rennie Orr and Smith., 1833]
lion defeating tiger
~ M. Boitard
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA97&dq=lion+tiger+fights+arranged&ei=lZCPULy4FqnYigKLuoGoBQ&id=WSdEAAAAYAAJ&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html_text


*



7 year captive Lion fights 2 tigers in the tower of london

A asiatic (Indian) lion cub and his sister were a present to George IV from General Watson.

http://www.hrp.org.uk/MediaPlayer/ViewPlaylist.aspx?PlaylistId=123

An accidental but tremendous conflict took place in December, 1830, between a tiger and tigress, and a lion, in the menagerie of the Tower of London.
While one of the under keepers was in the act of cleaning the dens in the menagerie, he unguardedly raised a door in the upper tier of cages, by which the lion and tigers were separated. No sooner did the animals see each other, than their eyes glared furiously. The lion erected his mane, and, uttering a tremendous roar, bounded on the male tiger, who seemed as eager for the conflict as his adversary; and he was seconded in the attack by the female. The conflict now became tremendous, and the roaring of the combatants resounded through every part of the Tower, and was even heard in Tower Hill, and the adjoining streets. The other animals of the menagerie became variously excited by the horrid sounds. The beasts of prey evinced strong combative feelings, and joined their voices in fearful yellings, making every effort to get out of their confinement; while the more timid creatures shrieked with terror, and vainly endeavoured to conceal themselves in some remote corners of their cells.

of him, and by this conjunction of strength, the poor lion was fairly pinned against the bars, and his action greatly diminished. Still, however, this did not damp his courage, for he redoubled his roar of fury, while, at the same time, he uttered yells of distress. The keepers now appeared with rods of iron heated red at the ends, and applied them to the mouths and nostrils of the furious tigers, which forced them to quit their hold of the prostrate king of the forest. But as soon as they were separated, the lion and tiger again united in conflict, and seizing each other, the one by the upper, and the other by the under jaw, they tore one another with a more deadly and terrible fury than before. The red hot bars were again applied to their nostrils, but so keen were they in the contest, that it was with much difficulty they were again separated. The lion was then forced to his den by following him with the hot iron, when the doors were immediately shut upon him. The lion had the worst of it; but this is not to be wondered at, as he had two animals to contend with, which had been little more than twelve months from their native forests. The tiger, however, lost one of his canine teeth in the last bout. This terrible battle lasted upwards of half an hour.

http://books.google.com/books?id=5AssXdZVr4kC&pg=PA293&dq=fight+in+the+tower+lion+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zEgTUeXOAaf8iQKSioHoAg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

The London Magazine Hunt and Clarke, 1827

The lion, we should submit, when compared with the tiger, is a noble animal; he possesses more confidence, and more real courage; he likewise differs in his permanent attachment to his mate, and protection of his young; while the tiger shows no partiality beyond the period of heat in the female, and is himself frequently the first and greatest enemy to his own offspring.
http://books.google.com/books?id=xe4RAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA123&dq=1+lion+the+tiger+and+the+traveller&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cJOgUIiFH-32igKS94HAAw&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAzgo


German engraving by Ludwig Beckmann, circa. 1875-80
Ludwig Beckmann (1822-1902). Aliases: Revierförster Holster. Professions: Painter; Animal painter; Lithographer; Illustrator.




Another occaision by George Stubbs




Lion and Tiger Fighting.
Painted & Engraved by James Ward, Painter & Engraver in Mezzotinto to His Royal Highness, The Prince of Wales.
London, Published June 1st. 1799 by James Ward & Co. No. 6 Newman Street.
Mezzotint. 605 x 475mm. Uncleanly trimmed 5mm into the plate at top.
A Study of 'Lion and Tiger' was exhibited in the Academy in 1798, an
http://www.grosvenorprints.com/stock.php?engraver=Ward%2C+James&WADbSearch1=Submit

To-day, Volume 3
By Jerome Klapka Jerome, Barry Pain
The lion has somewhat greater muscular power than the tiger, but the latter has greater quickness. In intelligence they are about equal ; andin general it may be said that a full-grown Nubian lion and a full-grown royal Bengal tiger (each, say, four years old) are a fair match. It would be an even guess which would kill
the other.

http://books.google.com/books?id=0V8xAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA213&dq=menagerie+lion+kill+fight+edmonds++tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JWbqUMXrOM_EiwKzvYGgBg&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAQ


 
In 1896, he drew caricatures for the magazines Simplicissimus and Jugend, and the next year he had his first solo exhibition in Vienna.
A trip to Egypt in 1914 resulted in 21 paintings as well as numerous watercolors and drawings; on the return journey he stopped off in Italy. In June he acquired the country seat Neukastel. After the outbreak of World War I he was sent as official war painter to the western front. The war experience brought about a search for new style appropriate to the expression of the horrors of war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Slevogt


Ferdinand Victor Eugene Delacroix
French

http://hoocher.com/Eugene_Delacroix/Eugene_Delacroix.htm



George Frederick Watts


Born in London in 1817. His first major success as painter took place in the spring of 1843. Watts entered the competition for the decoration of the Houses of Parliament and won the prize of £300 for his drawing of "Caractacus led Captive through the Streets of Rome." He brilliant depiction of historical personalities impressed the judges and set the stage for a lucrative art career.
Watts used his winnings to travel to Italy where he stayed with expat aristocracy, Lord and Lady Holland. According to Art historian, William Loftus Hare "Italy, and particularly Florence, was perpetual fascination and inspiration to Watts. There he imbibed the influences of Orcagna and Titian—influences, indeed, which were clearly represented in the next monumental painting which he attempted. It came about that Lord Holland persuaded his guest to enter a fresh competition for the decoration of the Parliament Houses, and Watts carried off the prize with his "Alfred inciting the Saxons to resist the landing of the Danes."
http://www.georgefredericwatts.org/biography.html

http://www.britishmuseum.org/collectionimages/AN01104/AN01104155_001_l.jpg
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectid=3415433&partid=1&output=Terms%2f!!%2fOR%2f!!%2f17062%2f!%2f%2f!%2fanimal-fighting%2f!%2f%2f!!%2f%2f!!!%2f&orig=%2fresearch%2fsearch_the_collection_database%2fadvanced_search.aspx¤tPage=5&numpages=10

[size=18] Edward landseer

Landseer was born in London, the son of the engraver John Landseer A.R.A...He was something of a prodigy whose artistic talents were recognised early on. He studied under several artists, including his father, and the history painter Benjamin Robert Haydon, who encouraged the young Landseer to perform dissections in order to fully understand animal musculature and skeletal structure. Landseer's life was entwined with the Royal Academy. At the age of just 13, in 1815, he exhibited works there. He was elected an Associate at the age of 24, and an Academician five years later in 1831. He was knighted in 1850, and although elected President in 1866 he declined the invitation.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectid=1626830&partid=1&output=Terms%2f!!%2fOR%2f!!%2f17062%2f!%2f%2f!%2fanimal-fighting%2f!%2f%2f!!%2f%2f!!!%2f&orig=%2fresearch%2fsearch_the_collection_database%2fadvanced_search.aspx¤tPage=10&numpages=10


{The 19th Century}


{1957}
[germany]
Frankfurt Zoological Gardens,
a free for all erupted at performance of 10 big cats 8 lions an 2 tiger’s the 2 tigers were killed by the lion’s and 2 lions were killed by the remaining 6.
~Guiness records
another source here…
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/517851162.html?dids=517851162:517851162&FMT=CITE&FMTS=CITE:AI&type=historic&date=Jan+18%2C+1957&author=&pub=Chicago+Tribune&desc=Eight+Lions+Kill+Pair+of+Tigers+in+German+Zoo&pqatl=google


lion kills three tiger’s Source: Altoona Mirror, September 27, 1928

Tributed ^ By Raden-slash



Rudolf kludsky had said several lions had killed his tiger’s.Several mean’s more than 4= A few years later, Rudolf Kludsky again decided to train a mixed group (22 animals). Mistake. It took three months to get them used to each other. But they were not yet ready to perform. During one of the first shows, the nervous and inexperienced animals engaged in a free for all. One tiger was killed by a lion. Source=Tiger fan named Peter Yuku.com
http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad263/broekhuijsen/Interactions/Interactions-8.jpg
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5n65hqync1r9e7vdo7_1280.jpg
Rudolf Kludsky trains this mixed group of  lions and tigers in the stadium or Turin. In the same year each group of species had to be separated as the lions oftentimes attacked the tiger and even killed several specimens.
http://squaresolid.tumblr.com/

{1903}
lion kills tiger ~Coventry Evening Telegraph, 25. of september 1903



Production person
Print made by Charles Mackie
1885-1920 (c.)

Description
A tiger and a lion fighting
Colour woodcut

Inscriptions
Inscription Content: Inscribed in grapite within image: "Charles H Mackie Imp./ Charles H Mackie Imp./ Mr Walls del./ 6" Also with Mackie's stamp.
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectid=1543965&partid=1&output=Terms%2f!!%2fOR%2f!!%2f17062%2f!%2f%2f!%2fanimal-fighting%2f!%2f%2f!!%2f%2f!!!%2f&orig=%2fresearch%2fsearch_the_collection_database%2fadvanced_search.aspx¤tPage=12&numpages=10

lion tiger fight Monogrammist
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[size=24]{The 20th Century}


{2006}
Liberec (Czech pronunciation: [?l?b?r?ts] ( listen); German: Reichenberg) is a city in the Czech Republic. Located on the Lusatian Neisse and surrounded by the Jizera Mountains and Je‰tûd-Kozákov Ridge, it is the fifth-largest city in the Czech Republic.
lion kill’s siberian white tigress in leberic czech zoo. There was only one bite mark on Isabella’s throat an no other wound’s concluding even though 2 lion’s occupied the same encloser with isbella the tiger, only one lion attacked isabella.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/offbeat/2009-11-19-Czech-Republic_N.htm

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So thats more than 700 years worth of lions having a consistantcy of beating tigers, sure there are a few here and there every so hundred years worth of historical documents of a tiger winning too, but it is rare...because for a tiger to have won, would more so tribute to questioning the status of the lion, as shown majority of the accounts that are on hand of tigers winning are of male tigers killing female lions that is toppled with over 20 experts who stand by the that social attribute via= experinced it, an even more so rare for a fit prime "male" lion to lose, which still it is possible for the tiger to win, but histroy is showing us that the lion is the usual one to start and finish a fight with a tiger more than vice versa. That alone disputes the opinion an fabrication that british have idlelized the lion falsely because some idiot uses flaued alibies, bias with no substance type sources, refferences that are only in our era trying to dispute something of ancient times with no creditable knowledge of there own of what they are talking about... we have modern documentations that are exactly, an I mean excatly the same as every-single document I have just shown, as I said before... what would change? Lions and tigers dident aquire some new set of evolutionary skills an attributes grand of any notice that wasent recorded, they are akin to there recent ancestors so they are the same, the consistancy speaks for it self, in other words.. if a lion defeated a tiger in a fight fair fight consistanty, then most likely thats how it will always stay, not a garentee because more information and occaisions are out there, but so far it looks kinda one sided in terms creditable sources of opinions to accounts. :whistle:

Hey thats very cool to know, yeah I always was told Tiger in Greek an persian was from the word "Tigris" witch ment "Arrow" but the romans had also given Tigris after the river named tigris which translated an ment fast and dangerous. But There could be many different meanings to the same culture an nationality, but its cool that you know other forms of tiger an lion history espeacially in another languages, english dosent have all that much recorded from other languages an other races....its like typeing in google....

"lion vs tiger rome"

you can find only less than medicore data from opinions to the average person guessing what happned in rome, but if you type in Leones venatio Tigre/tigris, a whole lot of information will pop up of anceint origins, so its better to have its native language dialects instead. That goes the same to all the different nationalitys. As for lion and tiger in Persain, I dont know all that much but would like to learn, if you can tell me how to say these main things in Persian or Iranian I think I can manage finding a few more things, translated words like...

~Artifact
~Painting
~Lion
~Tiger
~Fight
~wild

Then I'm sure in persian or Iranian search courses will pick it up through google, because if I type in lion fights tiger "germany" nothing of german origin ever came up, but as soon as I typed in lowen Kampf tiger, then easly google routed me to mnay artifacts...so again english dosent hold all that much information, but what I have accumilated is okay, its just that there must be tons more floating around out there thats awesomely intresting.

I really dont have a favorite between them, I like both equally, I'm just finding what most have recorded an archiveing it.

But if anything thanks for the feed back, an hope to hear more info from you.

^_^