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rider
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Topic: Ancient Woods Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 12:39 |
During the Ancient times, most of Europe was covered with these ancient woods. For the people who came from south (Romans for example), these must have made a remarkable sight. For now, thousands of times, a smaller area is covered with these forests. Yet, when you enter one, they are astonishing and extraordinary. What I wanted to actually say, was that, how: - Have these affected animals moving from places to other places?
- What animals lived in them?
- How (or if) did they affect the growth of large kingdoms?
- What impression might these, thousands of kilometers spanning lands, given to peoples from the steppes or places were forests were rarer (or not so old)?
Thanks,
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Ikki
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Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 14:20 |
I only can say two things:
1. In "De Bello Gallico" Julius Caesar write impressed by the size of the forest, and all the sections of the book have a lot of references to the difficults about live and move in these giant forest. I recommend read it.
2. There were an important change from the celtic-germanic cultures, who have a strong relation with the forest (see a lot of magical-religious places like trees, rocks, lakes..) to the roman-christian culture. According with the medievalist Robert Fossier, the french people of the XI century althought live and have a profitable relation with the forest, had developed a fear to those closed reigns of trees plaged with bandits and demoniac powers.
Animals: like today in eastern Europe.
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Knights
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Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 14:33 |
Originally posted by rider
What animals lived in them? |
Well I won't go into a detailed list yet, but many nowadays extinct or highly endangered animals were abundant in the forests of Europe and Asia. Creatures like wolves, bears, aurochs (bovines), tigers and leopards roamed the forests of Europe, which were back then widespread and much denser. Coniferous woodland and Bamboo forests dominated China and Russia/Siberia, home to many animals which are rare today like the panda and Amur Leopard. Life flourished in ancient woods, and as you pointed out Rider - many peoples had a special/religious connection with the forest and its inhabitants.
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vulkan02
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Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 15:10 |
Romans as far as we know weren't very keen environmentalists. They saw nature as a barrier to their growing imperial aspirations and as something to be subdued rather than to be respected as an integral part of humanity. The hundred of thousands of animals that perished in the colosseum confirm this.
Currently IIRC only about 4% of forest cover in Europe is original old-growth forest, the rest has been cut and replanted several times. The animals have certainly been affected. The European bison for example is one species that has almost gone extinct and now they hang on mostly in a national park between Poland and Belarus. Other animals that have been drastically reduced such as wolf or bear and the ancient aurochs were finally gone extinct around the 15th century.
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Ikki
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Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 16:20 |
Originally posted by vulkan02
Other animals that have been drastically reduced such as wolf or bear and the ancient aurochs were finally gone extinct around the 15th century.
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Great the aurochs, according with the wiki article, the last died in Poland. Like say Knights, lions was living in Europe too until historical times, at least in southeast Europe.
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rider
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Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 11:06 |
I know that tigers lived in modern Greece...
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Ikki
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Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 13:44 |
Tigers? I don't know rider, lions sure but tigers... i think that the most western region where lived tigers was de Caspian Sea.
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pekau
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Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 14:17 |
I thought tigers don't live in Europe... the Romans brought some from Asia for entertainment. They made the tigers and lions to fight, interested to see which beast is more formiddable than others. By statistics, it was recorded that tigers won more than lions did.
And wow, I never thought about this. If the huge ancient trees managed to survive even druing the time of ancient civilization... (Oh nevermind, Solomon supposedly got fine timbers from somewhere that could have been ancient wood... but I can't recall where they got it from...) then how did these trees die out? Just human impact, or...?
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omshanti
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Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 01:15 |
This is what I found in Wikipedia regarding the beautiful city of Venice in Italy. It shows that lots of forests disappeared in Slovenia and Croatia in order for Venice to be built. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venice#Sinking_of_VeniceThe buildings of Venice are constructed on closely spaced wood piles (under water, in the absence of oxygen, wood does not decay) which penetrate alternating layers of clay and sand. Wood for piles was cut in the most western part of today's Slovenia, resulting in the barren land in a region today called Kras, and in two regions of Croatia, Lika and Gorski kotar.
Edited by omshanti - 02-Feb-2007 at 01:24
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rider
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Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 01:52 |
Well... I wanted to say lions... so for that post, a tiger = a lion...
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Knights
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Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 01:59 |
Good point about the tigers Ikki. It is a bit controversial as to how far west the range of tigers went. They definitely lived around the Caspian and even to Thrace, so some insist that their range could have extended all the way to Greece and Macedonia. Anyone else got any information regarding historic tiger ranges, in regards to western extent?
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Ikki
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Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 04:23 |
There is a possibility if we talk about the Saber toothed Tigers (really a tiger?), but i think that this cat was extinct before the Neolithic.
Edited by Ikki - 02-Feb-2007 at 04:28
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rider
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Posted: 03-Feb-2007 at 04:30 |
Well, I believe (not 100% sure) that the Sabertoothed-Tiger's skeletons have been found in the Baltics...
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Seko
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Posted: 14-Aug-2007 at 12:04 |
I wonder what kind of ancient animals roamed these woods.
An ancient forest of cypress trees, estimated to be eight million years old, has been discovered in Hungary.
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rider
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Posted: 15-Aug-2007 at 03:23 |
It would be the prehistoric hungarian version of a dinosaur-saberdonkey... Trust me...
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Knights
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Posted: 15-Aug-2007 at 04:59 |
Yes, Rider, of course Thanks for the link Seko. Seems a very interesting place to find an ancient forest! Also, to answer Rider's question from February - Yes I believe Saber Tooth Tiger skeleton's (or bones at least) have been found around the Baltics. If not, very similar cats like the "snow lion".
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elenos
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Posted: 15-Aug-2007 at 10:34 |
What a good subject, I would have thought it would be of
little interest to most. To me the European forests were a fascinating
place. The forest cover invited plenty of rain so the biggest problem in
going from A to B was crossing a network of marshes. Some may think the ancient
Europeans were not very conservative with water. In fact the opposite was the case;
they were great water conservationists even from Neothilic times. They soon learned
to deal water quality rather than quantity and early on started irrigation control
schemes to constantly drain the marshes and so make more living space, rather
than live on sloping ground which of course was in the highest demand.
They had no such thing as a shortage of woods and yet many
areas were held as sacred. The early inhabitants went through periods of slash
and burn and so learned by their mistakes. However the same experience at the
same time in the near East was different for lands were drying out with no more
rains to come and therefore no more woods. The solid rains continued in Europe
and so flooding was always a problem and added to their skill with water for
which they became famed throughout the ancient world.
Another problem was the beaver that could mess up water
schemes by randomly building dams that diverted important tribal water courses,
so the people gained constant practice in waterway maintenance and practice in
respecting the various tribes around them for fixing problems common to all and
so began the mighty system of common law that is still with us. The beavers
didnt disappear from European environment until the 17th century
when a craze began for of hats made of beaver skin.
A totally cleared area was found to be less profitable than
one part woods and part fields. Birds were an important food source but no
trees no birds nor wild pigs another delicacy. Nearly all early European
village sites had pig bones in them. For many reasons an environmental attitude
let it be became peculiar to the temperate zone of Europe
although being a very active people with a passion for competitive sports.
Their deeply conservative way of thinking became part of the early religion
that developed as the numbers of dwellers within the green canopy grew. The
softwood forests crossed within a two hundred mile band while the more northern
climes had the hardwoods.
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elenos
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