Neo-Ottomanism

Westernization and modernization are two different things, but Ataturk did both of them.

I think westernization in the political sense is just a veiled term for materialist humanism. It has succeded in post WW2 europe, becoming the dominant ideology. and it hopes to expand into the ME which it is finding to be the greatest obstacles.

Ataturk didin't have the internet.

Why do you take it as an insult?

Originally posted by Bulldog Why do you take it as an insult?   Turkey if it has already not been finalized will become an Observer at the Arab League.   Also don't forget;   Turkish-Arab Economy Forum   Turkish-Arab Trade Chamber   Turkish-Arab Research & Development Center   http://www.iktissad.com/events/TAF/2   You did not explain your understanding of Westernization,   Westernization is basically   the impact of western culture on the local and native culture through acculturation, expansion and globalization.   In other words assimilation, to sumarise its "cultural".   Modernization is not cultural, it affects the infastructure, technology, living standards and so on of a country.   You don't have to ditch your own culture to modernize.   The very idea that "adopting" Western Culture will make you "modern" is the greatest joke of them all. You can act as Western as you like, it's just a show, you'll never be accepted or treated like a Westerner for the simple fact that your not one. Infact people respect people who are themselves alot more than "fakes" and "wannabe's". You can never be Western as all you'll be trying to do is "immitate", you can never immitate anything aswell as the people you are trying to immitate, as they are not putting on a show they are being themselves.   AtaTurk did modernize the country, if you read his "Nutuk" and what he actually wrote you should clearly realise that he distinguishes between Westenization and Modernization. His aim was to create a non-relient Turkey, fully independant and one that relies on herself and not on others.   Today alot of people who call themselves "AtaTurkcu" don't have a clue about the guy. In his essence, a revlutionary, anti-colonialist patriot.

Mortaza

My real question (being a westerner myself) is, "Can the East modernize to the same degree as the West?" And another good question is, "Why the hell should it want to?" We had a lot of problems with our own industrial revolution, and industrialized capitalism is a form of neo-Feudalism anyway. Right now the pendulum of modernization and production of commodity items is swinging towards the East, where as before most commodity goods were produced in American and European factories. The people suffered under horrible conditions. Ever heard of things like the Luddite rebellion? British artisans and craftspeople, feeling that industrialization was a threat to their ability to self-determine their own economic freedom. All told, industrialization, while making the state more powerful, tends to benefit the aristocracy (or, in the west's case, the oligarchy) and merely placates the people with affordable commodity items; at the expense of their freedom.

For example, look at China, which is a modern westernizing (yes, westernization and industrialization are synonymous) Eastern nation. Their traditional peasant farmer class is being conscripted into unsafe factories, working long days for meagre pay. Look at all the sweatshops in Pakistan and other developing nations. Affordable luxury items can only be produced by exploiting the working class. The reason commodities used to be expensive is because people had to pay top dollar for quality products. In order to make them affordable, you have to drive down what you pay the laborers. Every commodity in America and Europe is made by Eastern nations, and the workers in those countries are getting the bad end of the deal. No one wants to work in a factory under those conditions, but somebody has to get paid less in order for the goods to cost less.

If you fellows want your nations to suffer under the lash of industrialization, that's your own damn business. But it didn't serve the west well during those times (hell, we industrialized warfare. You guys want the equivalent of that going on in the East?), we suffered through militarization, nationalism, genocides, social unrest, a string of revolutions, and the only thing we get in retrun are cheaper televisions and iPods, which are used by corporate fat cats to spread brainwashing material. We've turned away from our traditional God for the sake of 'progress' and the middle class. You want that? Entertainment is anathema to religion. If you want to keep your God (Allah), I suggest you try to keep away from industrialization and Europe, not run towards it with open arms.

Industrialization is a double-edged sword.
Cheers.

^

You make a good point. Perhaps Bhutan has it right after all (Gross National Happiness before Gross National Product)