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Neo-Ottomanism
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Neo-Ottomanism
    Posted: 17-Jan-2007 at 19:28

Recently I've been suprised especially by Arab's who feel proud of the Ottoman's, defend them and support the idea of Neo-Ottomanism. Now, for decades it was Arab state policy to make the Ottoman's the bad guys, I used to hear that they enslaved Arabs and were terrible. But now I find it unbelievable the amount of Arabs I'm meeting who have compared to before considerably favourable things to say about the state.

Is even the concept of Neo-Ottomanism a total fantasy or does it have any chance to grow as an idea?
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
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Posts: 219 		  Quote shinai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2007 at 20:05
yea , so maybe they wanna be united with Selim's children, to make another Chaldiran, anyhow more looks like a dream this time.
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Posts: 2408 		  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2007 at 20:20
Tunisians, Algerians and even Syrians feel close to Ottoman union or something (like england has with his former colonies) then any other arabic country.
Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı
[IMG">http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg">
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 02:28

Ah no thanks. Allience again iran can be beneficial, but still no thanks. Arabic counties have to much problems, and we  are not enough for eastern turkey problems.
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 04:08
I think Mortaza has outlined much of the sentiment. The days of the ottoman empire were much better for the Arabs than today is, thus it is sentiment to "back to the good old days"
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Posts: 2252 		  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 09:57
Originally posted by Bulldog

Recently I've been suprised especially by Arab's who feel proud of the Ottoman's, defend them and support the idea of Neo-Ottomanism. Now, for decades it was Arab state policy to make the Ottoman's the bad guys, I used to hear that they enslaved Arabs and were terrible. But now I find it unbelievable the amount of Arabs I'm meeting who have compared to before considerably favourable things to say about the state.

Is even the concept of Neo-Ottomanism a total fantasy or does it have any chance to grow as an idea?
 
Not all the Arabs were against the Ottomans, the ottomans were finished when the Arabs became independent. Also the later ottomans were only a relic and lacked the answers to the overall problems of the state.
 
Anyhow if Post WW2 can unite, than i think the gulf between the neo-ottomans and the arabs in comparitive terms is relatively small. 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 10:34
A Fantasy.
 
At all cost we (Turks) need to be far away of it.
 
An economic community with Turkic states plus Iran is more feasible.
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Posts: 1869 		  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 13:56
In some ways Ottomanism is still valid in Turkey.
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Posts: 219 		  Quote shinai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 19:23
As an Iranian I like to see a moden Kamalist Turkey in the west instead of an islamic nation as ottoman.
The nationalisim between Arabs and Turks is too strong.
Turks in Turkey lost their connection with east and they need to find
new one in the west. Best things for Turks could be unification with E.U.
 
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 20:29
Turkey lost connection with "south" which is Arabia, tried West which has some sucess but has no real future, Turkey could turn East and keep good relations with West.

Edited by Bulldog - 18-Jan-2007 at 20:29
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
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Posts: 219 		  Quote shinai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 21:46
Buldog Turkey is doing well in westernization, enjoy being a part of E.U.
leave the east for the eastern people. You guys can not deal even with Kurds who are the closest to you.
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 06:11
Turkey is not western, it is Turkish. It should not be a matter of looking to the East or West for guidence.

Westernization isn't all its cracked up to be.


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 19-Jan-2007 at 06:11
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 07:53
leave the east for the eastern people.
 
Well, we are the eastern people.
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 08:08
Turks are Eastern, infact the very idea of Eastern Mysticism, Exosticsm and Orientalism..... in the Westerners eyes came from how they imagined Turks to be.
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Posts: 2252 		  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 20:01
 Modernization must not be confused with westernization/eurofication.
Dubai for example would be modernization and not westernization. + cultures can not be imported or imposed.
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 20:08

EXACTLY!!!Thumbs%20Up You get a thumbs up from me, I totally agree.

Dubai is a great example, I hope it prospers and prospers.
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
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Posts: 2252 		  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2007 at 09:12
It may be interesting to note as i read somewhere that the pushing back of Australian troops at Gallipoli would not have been possible without Arab reinforcements. I think the Arab Turk divide is not accurately portrayed.
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Posts: 2329 		  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2007 at 09:27
Originally posted by malizai_

 
Dubai for example would be modernization and not westernization. + cultures can not be imported or imposed.
 
 
Bad example. I have spend some time in Dubai and it looks like they have copied everything (apart for religion, nominally) from the west.
 
They have clubs, prostitutes, alcohol, theme parks etc, everything copied from the West.
 
Managers are all Europeans or Americans (a few Iranians and Arabs) and the workforce is either from Pakistan or from India, usually Pakistani workers and Indian clerical staff.
 
One cannot find an Arab in the workforce!
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Posts: 1379 		  Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2007 at 10:00
Ziya Gokalp defined the Turkish modernization: Full westernization, and said "I'm a Turk, I'm a Muslim and I'm of Western Civilization." (Turkum, Muslumanim ve Bati medeniyetindenim - Turkculugun Esaslari / 6. Bolum Batiya Dogru)
 
Westernization is the only solution for industrialization. the Russian westernization and the Japannese westernization also prove that. And Turkey, as a Westernized eastern country, will help Kurds, Azeris and Iranians in their full westernization and industrializiation process.
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Posts: 2252 		  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2007 at 12:27
Originally posted by Yiannis

Originally posted by malizai_

 
Dubai for example would be modernization and not westernization. + cultures can not be imported or imposed.
 
 
Bad example. I have spend some time in Dubai and it looks like they have copied everything (apart for religion, nominally) from the west.
 
They have clubs, prostitutes, alcohol, theme parks etc, everything copied from the West.
 
Managers are all Europeans or Americans (a few Iranians and Arabs) and the workforce is either from Pakistan or from India, usually Pakistani workers and Indian clerical staff.
 
One cannot find an Arab in the workforce!
 
Alcohol and prostitution is hardly a cultural barometer, its existence is pre-islamic and cross-cultural. Alcohol has never been denied to non-moslem people anyway(AFAIK). A lot of muslims consume it privately and some publically when abroad. None will declare it permissable for muslims to drink, neither is prostitution legalised. It has yet to become a career choice.
 
I agree Disney Land is not representative of American culture, but just becasuse you have returned from it does not mean the American culture and sub-cultures don't exist. Using latest building techniques is modernization, and a lot of the constructions reflect architectural glimpses of eastern traditions as well as practcial building practices.
 
The great influx of foreign workers is not the population sample that should be under observation, but the host population. 


Edited by malizai_ - 24-Jan-2007 at 12:38
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