Prove your god's existence.

Originally posted by Bulldog The creating power of everything we have has been known to human's since we were first created. We've always had faith, always began with monotheism, followed by some kind of destortion followed by the realision and logic of monotheism again and this pattern keep's repeating.

Not really. The earliest stage of religion almost everywhere appears to have been animism, which in many places has evolved to either pantheism or polytheism. In some places polytheism became henotheism (there are more gods, but one is the most important) which eventually became monotheism. In fact compared to the other types of religion, monotheism is quite rare.

All terms such as "proove", "discover", "believe" are human terms with flawed human contexts, the only perfect thing is nature and its laws which are never broken and never fail. The creation of nature, of the universe, of the world of life is perfect, as a human its very difficult to understand this therefore its even more difficult to even begin to try and understand the concept of "God".

"Life is too difficult/perfect therefore we won't be able to comprehend it" is exactly the flaw of intelligent design.

After Newton came up with his theory of gravity, he noticed that the orbits of the planets didn't fit exactly in his theory, and that there was a slight deviation which kept them into their orbits. Newton wasn't able to explain this, and therefore attributed it to God. Nowadays science has progressed and is able to accurately expain that deviation of the planets' orbits. No thinking person addresses that to God anymore. The moral of this story: If we can't understand something that doesn't mean science cannot explain it. Attributing it to a creator is too easy a way out.

It's better to believe then not to in my opinion, what have you got to loose? if you die and there is no God you don't loose anything but if you die and their is God then your gonna wish you did

I don't see any reason to believe in something without evidence. And besides: one could say the same about the Islamic God, or about the Judaic, or about Hindu gods, Roman gods, Germanic, Aztec gods, etc. why not believe in Jupiter? if you die and there is no Jupiter you don't loose anything but if you die and their is Jupiter then your gonna wish you did

Proove God exists...

Being alive and having this amazing human body and most amazing of all life is proof...

The functioning of the Earth and Universe is proof...

The beauty, symetry and perfectness of nature and its rules are proof...

The harmony of the Sun giving us heat, the Moon and its gravity are proof...

Me being able to think about this topic and anything else, having the choice and ability to make decisions, learn and gain knowledge is proof...

etc etc

There is so much proof, it just depends on your perspectives, some people take these for granted and as if it's nothing special at all which is a pity for them as not being able to appreciate these miracles is a shame.

It all depends on your perspective, just because we see, feel, experience and deal with these things everyday doesn't make it any less miraculous then it is. Sometimes when people are born rich with acess to anything they want, they don't realise what they have untill they loose it.

MixCoatl

Edited by Bulldog - 08-Jan-2007 at 18:50

Originally posted by Bulldog MixCoatl I don't see any reason to believe in something without evidence. And besides: one could say the same about the Islamic God, or about the Judaic, or about Hindu gods, Roman gods, Germanic, Aztec gods, etc. why not believe in Jupiter? if you die and there is no Jupiter you don't loose anything but if you die and their is Jupiter then your gonna wish you did   From my perspective there is only one "creating power" and I feel that this basic understanding is expressed by mankind across the world. All cultures have a creation story, its something common to all societies. To me all the God's are just different societies interpretations of the "creating power" which we all as human's somewhere deep within us have some kind of belief or faith in.   Belief, faith, is common to humanity, I don't think it should be so easily dismissed and ridiculed its a part of us and must have a purpose and reason.

I you see the universe as being custom crafted, being made for human inhabitants (by God) I think that's illogical reasoning. The reason everything seems so 'special' is because if it wasn't we wouldn't be around to contemplate it! If the universe was made of black holes no life could be in it to marvel at those black holes. If the universe was all energy, no life would be in it to contemplate the all energy universe. Things are as they are because they must be that way for us to be around to see them not because of any detached, supernatural beings fickle whims. And this is not the anthropic principle either, human perception, indeed all life is secondary to the issue.

As our scientific knowledge has increased so has our concept of scale as we humans fit into the larger picture. At first It was just the tribe, then the continent, then planet Earth, then the solar system with Earth as the center, then Copernicus showed the sun was the center of the solar system, then we thought the Milky way galaxy was all that existed, then galaxies turned into just another smaller component of the larger whole, the Universe. But it doesn't stop there by any means, for what we see to exist requires other universes, a universe of universes and a probability or evolution of sorts on a meta-universal scale. As humbling as it is the scale and perhaps significance of humanity shrinks in accordance with the magnitude of our knowledge. Universes are like grains of sand on the beach, or stars in our sky, or atoms in our body. How high does the meta scale climb? Will we ever know?  Finally if you want a theological scale-conundrum to ruminate over ask yourself who created God?

Originally posted by Bulldog God is the creater of everything and all the concepts we try to understand, time, the universal laws etc   We try to understand the issue using the "knowledge" we have today, we cannot even begin to contemplate ideas such as, if time was created before time what was there?

Exactly.
If God is the Almighty creator of everything, every law, ever concept within our universe then He definatly has the power to put himself above any of the laws he has created, such as time. If God exists, His omnipotence should lead us to believe that anything and everything is possible to Him.


Edited by Knights - 09-Jan-2007 at 21:27

The truth is there for those who wish to see it.

The moral of this story: If we can't understand something that doesn't mean science cannot explain it. Attributing it to a creator is too easy a way out.

Even if it can be explained by science, that doesn't exclude a creator from acting upon it. Everything belongs to God, every atom, every form of energy, every law of the universe, so why shouldn't he act upon his possessions.

So if he's omnipotent (and omnibenevolent) how can he be so cruel by witholding the truth to many people?

Just because some people deny a truth doesn't mean that truth does not exist.

Or would you prefer "scientific proof" where God shows himself to everyone with no room for error, to me this would seem insulting to his greatest creations, since this would mean that we do not possess the intelligence to come to the truth on our own. It would be like a teacher giving you the answers to a test because they think you'll fail, God believes we will all pass his test so he let's us come to the answers in our own time.

if you die and there is no Jupiter you don't loose anything but if you die and their is Jupiter then your gonna wish you did

From my understanding of Greco-Roman mythology, even if you did believe in Jupiter, he wasn't going to stop whoring himself with mortal women and men to help you in the afterlife.

Why must is be "him"? I'm against the genderisation of God and find it unlogical but that's my perspective on the issue.

Unlogical? God has only one incarnation, that of Christ and in this incarnation he chose to be male. Therefore the ascribing of the male gender to him is highly appropriate. I agree God himself is beyond gender, but He is masculine, and he has been so since he was first described in the bible. (Actually the first description of God in the Bible is using a plural word that has the meaning of a third person singular masculine perfect.)

Originally posted by Praetor The truth is there for those who wish to see it.

That's dodging the evidence. Every religion and non-religion can say that: "God does not exist, and that truth is there for those who wish to see it."

That again is the beauty of it all and why were so fortunate, we have free will and have the ability to actually think, disagre, debate and challenge each other's views which helps our knowledge progress. This alone is an amazing concept.

That's insufficient. If God was really omnipotent he could give us both free will and the ability to think, disagre, debate and challenge each other's views.

Besides, you can't deny that most people who are religious are so because their parents have raised them like that. Has very little to do with free will.

Originally posted by Bulldog That again is the beauty of it all and why were so fortunate, we have free will and have the ability to actually think, disagre, debate and challenge each other's views which helps our knowledge progress. This alone is an amazing concept. Why must is be "him"? I'm against the genderisation of God and find it unlogical but that's my perspective on the issue. What cruelty? all cruelty is caused by us there is no point blaming others, we have free will and have the ability not to be cruel but alot of the times we are and its our choice. But we can also do good and this is also our choice. Witholding? life, the laws of the universe, time, the very fact the sun gives us life and everything operates in such perfection that we are living today. If you look at it from the perspective that all of this and everything else is actually the creation of God you realise that God is everywhere and its so amazing, fascinating and beautiful. Exactly

Whether its fascinating and beautiful its a matter of personal preconception and opinion. The painful truth however is that all life is here to cruelly consume other life in order to survive. You simply can't ignore something so visible that makes all living struggle and suffering. All organisms beings including us humans basically struggle and create ideas to escape that inglorious end. Its the most powerful instinct that influences human societies and behaviour, far more so than sex or other desires.


Edited by vulkan02 - 10-Jan-2007 at 13:16