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bg_turk
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Topic: Prove your god's existence. Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 15:02 |
Originally posted by the Bulgarian
Were you religious at some point in your life? Are you from
Kurdjali? What's the situation over there, do people stick to their
religious practices or atheism has gained the upper hand? How much have
Bulgarian culture and way of life affected the Turks in Bulgaria? I
imagine a Turk from Kurdjali is more "Western-like" than a Turk from
Diarbekir. Or am I wrong? Please, inform me on the subject. |
First of all, in Diarbekir you would find few Turks, as it is mostly populated by Kurds.
The paradox in Bulgaria was that before the advent of communism, Turks
in Bulgaria were more religious than the Turks in Turkey, and that in
part was aided by the insistance of the Bulgarian state to emphasizing
their religion over ethincity in order to distance them from the
secular nationalism of Ataturk, which Bulgaria feared might lead to
seperatism.
When communism arrived things changed dramatically. Many of the Moslem
customs were banned, mosques were closed and people were forcefully
secularised and Islam was looked down upon as backward.
Despite all of this the older generation is still quite observant of
religious customs, but the younger generation is shifting away.
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the Bulgarian
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Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 15:19 |
Are you an atheist, Paul?
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Reginmund
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Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 15:35 |
Originally posted by Adalwolf
People do do need to know. It is a matter of faith, not proof.
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I translate faith as hope then. To me there is a difference between hope and belief.
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Lmprs
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Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 15:53 |
Atheism is commonsense.
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Adalwolf
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Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 16:58 |
Originally posted by Feanor
Atheism is commonsense. |
Actually, it is not. Throughout history mankind has always believed in some type of religion. So, Atheism is a recent abberation in historical terms, and not common at all.
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 18:38 |
I reckon I could prove my God's existance if I had to, but I don't see any reason why I would want or need to. Its only the atheists that are concerned with proving their religion correct, - pity they don't do their research.
Originally posted by Paul
Here you are, http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster |
lol! Some of my friends put this as their religion on the census
But it's absurd to say just because you don't know, you entertain the idea they might exist. Then to go on to criticise people who say they're nonsense |
No its not. Thats the foundation of modern science. "I don't know, but this might work. "
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Lmprs
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Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 18:42 |
Originally posted by Adalwolf
Actually, it is not. Throughout history mankind has always believed in some type of religion. So, Atheism is a recent abberation in historical terms, and not common at all. |
"Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule." - F. Nietzsche
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Guests
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Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 18:49 |
Originally posted by Paul
You also don't know that fairies, ghosts, UFO's and the yeti exist.
But it's absurd to say just because you don't know, you entertain the idea they might exist. Then to go on to criticise people who say they're nonsense.
Defending cranky ideas and their critics on ground they're unknowable puts you firmly with the cranks. I've always thought agnostic are allies to religious believers and enemies of athiests. |
Let see.
How are you sure ghosts don't exist? Are you sure there are not extraterrestial beings?
Yes. I bet the goatsucker or nessy can be easily prove false. However, there are other topics that are not so clear cut. For instance, how can you prove your identity will dissapear after death? How?
What I mean is the following: You live in a society that have impossed you -without you knowing- certain believes of which you are not aware of. Particularly Possitivism. Most people with college education in the planet have the strange believe they already know everything, which is far from the truth. Anyone that has studied Quantum Mechanic, Transfinite Mathematics or the Godel Theorem, quickly realize the human mind has LIMITS.
If so, why to discard the existence of realities and explanations that are beyond what we can grasp today? or that perhaps we will never undestand at all?
And yes. Agnostics usually feel better with religious fellows which want to share ideas rather than with atheists and theirs faith in the lack of God and purpose. In fact, for an agnostic is quite easy to get into Thomas Aquinas, Spinozas and other theologists and philosophers, because the questions are the same.
As the matter of fact the big question is not if God exist or not. The big question is WHY WE EXIST?.
Pingiuin
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Lmprs
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Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 19:08 |
Originally posted by pinguin
As the matter of fact the big question is not if God exist or not. The big question is WHY WE EXIST? |
I think I have bigger questions; "Do we exist?", "Does 'existence' exist?" etc.
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Hellios
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Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 19:17 |
Originally posted by Aelfgifu
Aelfgifu said: As I cannot prove there is none, and others cannot prove there is, there is little use but leave each and every one in peace to decide for themselves what to believe.
Hellios said: If you're a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable, and/or one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god, then you're an agnostic, not an atheist. See "agnosticism". Atheism is a disbelief in the existence of deity; the doctrine that there is no deity.
Aelfgifu said: No, really? Duh. I effing well know what the difference is, wiseass. |
Wiseass - for politely pointing out a difference between the common definition of atheism and this statement:
"As I cannot prove there is none, and others cannot prove there is, there is little use but leave each and every one in peace to decide for themselves what to believe."
The common definition of any word can be argued by those who really want to, but "As I cannot prove there is none,..." is part of most definitions of agnosticism. Since you're upset about me mentioning this nicely, sorry.
Originally posted by Aelfgifu
I do not believe in any deity, I also do not believe there is 'something out there', I believe there is absolutely nothing, and therefore I am NOT an agnostic. |
Originally posted by Aelfgifu
But I consider that my personal choice. I do not force my opinion upon others, and I respect other people's different beliefs, as long as they do not force their opinion upon me. |
Originally posted by Aelfgifu
I find it rather shortsighted to think that bein an atheist somehow makes me incpable of being tolerant towards others, and I cannot but conclude that this judgement of yours comes from your own inability to tolerate other opinions. |
I didn't see anybody here accusing you of being incapable of tolerance towards others. I have no such thoughts about you.
Originally posted by Aelfgifu
Pinguin said: As an agnostic, I am certain that both believers and atheists are wrong!
Aelfgifu said: As you cannot prove your beliefs either, you are in little position to consider others wrong. I do not consider anybody wrong. I can only decide for myself waht to believe, any attempt to decide what is right or wrong for others to believe is an act of inmeasurable arrogance. |
Aelfgifu, you're right about that.
Edited by Hellios - 11-Nov-2006 at 19:24
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Adalwolf
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Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 19:20 |
Originally posted by Feanor
Originally posted by pinguin
As the matter of fact the big question is not if God exist or not. The big question is WHY WE EXIST? |
I think I have bigger questions; "Do we exist?", "Does 'existence' exist?" etc.
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Of course we exist! If we didn't how would you ask the question?
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Adalwolf
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Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 19:23 |
Originally posted by Feanor
Originally posted by Adalwolf
Actually, it is not. Throughout history mankind has always believed in some type of religion. So, Atheism is a recent abberation in historical terms, and not common at all. |
"Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule." - F. Nietzsche
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What? Are you impying that people of faith are insane?
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 19:29 |
I think I have bigger questions; "Do we exist?", "Does 'existence' exist?" etc. |
I exist but you don't. Your just some square box on my computer. Of course we bloody well exist!
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Hellios
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Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 19:41 |
Originally posted by Mixcoatl
I think agnosticism, logically speaking, leads automatically to atheism. |
Agnosticism can definitely lead to atheism, but there are differences between a true agnostic and a true atheist, unless we start debating the common definitions of words, which can often be a good thing too.
Originally posted by Mixcoatl
If you believe that (a) god's existance cannot be proven or disproven, that means you cannot attribute any describing characteristics to god. (Like "good", "all powerful", "omniscient", "creating", etc.) After all, if you attribute such characteristics to god, that means you can induce his existance or non-existance out of those characteristics. So in other words, if you are agnostic, you cannot attribute any characteristics to god, because that would take away the improvability of his (non-existence). Hower as you cannot attribue any characteristics to god, the word 'god' becomes completely meaningless. So that means frases like 'god exists', 'god doesn't exist' and 'god's existance is unknowable' are as meaningless as 'asdf exists', 'asdf doesn't exist' and 'asdf's existance is unknowable'. |
Good points. As an agnostic, I attribute many describing characteristics to gods that my fellow members believe exist and claim to 'know'.
Edited by Hellios - 11-Nov-2006 at 19:42
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Hellios
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Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 19:45 |
Originally posted by the Bulgarian
Just found the thread. Very interesting, gents, very interesting indeed. I've posted this elsewhere, but this is the topic that its best suited for, so I hope you don't mind me repeating myself. My goal is to prove the nonexistance of god(s).
...First of all, let me ask you something. How is it that you know your religion is the right one? (this was a question directed at a particular forumer). So many of them exist. It's a gamble whether you'll be born in a Christian, Jewish, Buddisst, etc. family. For 99% of people their parents religion determins their own. So whether you'll worship the "Right God" or not, who ever he is, is a matter of chance. Now that is plain unfairness to the good people, who were just born in the wrong families. Let's say Allah is the one true God. Then all the goodhearted Christians, Jews, etc. go to hell. Why? Nonbelievers go to hell. It's in the Kuran. It's as simple as that. And vice versa. But then why didn't Allah give them the chance to worship him, after all he is allmighty? Some would say that he did. They know about Muhhamad and are free to convert to Islam. But what about the people born before the birth of Muhhamad or Christ? No matter how good they were they'll still burn.
But what's more suspicious is the concept of the entire creation of the Universe and Mankind. They're all alike. Muhhammad coppied the Bible and made some minor adjustments. He even went as far as steeling Jusus from Christianity. Couldn't he have been a little more creative? If you've read one Holy book you've read them all. How can you still believe that the Universe is 5000 years old, that God created man out of mud and all those things now that we know that the Universe is 12 to 20 billion years old, how life began and evolved and how mankind eventually came into being.
You're viewing your religion in an absolutistic manner - the one true and eternal one. That is because you're immersed in it. You must rise above that to observe it in its true essense.
All religious beliefs, starting with the first and most primitive ones, came into being as an attempt by the first people to explane the world around them. Any phenoemenon they didn't understand they contributed to a superior godlike force. Pagan mythologies are all alike. They all have a God of thunder, a God of fire, rain, etc. Just look up Slavic mythology in Wiki and compare it to Scandinavian, Baltic and Celtic. You wouldn't know whitch is whitch. In time religion started to encopass not only teachings about the outer physical world, but it ever more focused on man's spiritual and inner world. Religious beliefs are a part, a stage of the evolution of human thought, just as slavery, feudalism and capitalism were stages of the evolution of human society. Now religion is nearing its end. Today people don't need it to understand the reality around them, they have science to do that. And now they know that what religion tells them about the physycal aspect of the world is a lie and they don't believe it any more. They don't need it any more as a moral guide either. It's becoming obsolete. It's as simple as that. Of course, this process isn't instant, but comare modern times with the Renessanse and you'll see what a long way it's gone and how much it has excellerated. In the Muslim world it's at an earlier stage, but non the less it's only a matter of time. It's inevitable as the transition from a primitive society to a slavetrading one, from a slavetrading one to a feudal one, etc., is. It's just a stage in the evolution of the way we think, the way we persieve the world arround us and the phylosophyc system that goes with this perception. Before the Renessanse God was seen as the only one capable of Creation, of having wisdom and thus the only one worthy of worship. People were viewed as insignifficant and worthless. But with the Renessanse came the idea that Man is the only being gifted with intelect and the ability to contemplate, to understand and to create. Thus he became the center of the a new moral system. Before man worshiped God and sacrificed himself in His name. Now Man became the object of worship. He was placed in the center of the Universe. That view will prevail worldwide, believe me. Maybe not in this generation, probably not in the next one, but when men land on a planet orbiting the nearest star the name Allah will be forgotten. |
Thanks for this I read it all and might come back to you on some really good points you make.
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Hellios
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Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 19:58 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
If we assume that God, an omnipowerful and omnipresent entity, exists it leads to paradoxes such as the question whether God is so powerful that she can create a stone that she cannot lift. Such paradoxes are contradictory, and invalidate the assumption of God's existence. That is why I have chosen to be an atheist. |
I had to read this 2 times to fully understand your explanation of why you chose atheism, and I see the logic in your thinking, although an agnostic would have to be rather dumb to get into paradoxes like those mentioned considering that an agnostic simply doesn't deny the possibility of the existence of a god or something 'greater' beyond our understanding.
Rgds.
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Lmprs
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Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 19:59 |
Agnosticism can lead to nontheism, not atheism. There is a huge difference between the two.
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JanusRook
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Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 20:15 |
Proof of God's Existence:
Oh, you didn't mean a Mathematical Proof.......
Edited by JanusRook - 11-Nov-2006 at 20:16
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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.
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Hellios
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Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 20:29 |
I understand & don't blame those who see agnostics as enemies of atheists and allies of religious believers, for these reasons:
A true agnostic should merely not deny the possibility of the existence of a god or something else beyond our understanding and should not try to promote nor suppress anybody's beliefs about such things.
A true agnostic accepts that mankind's understanding of the universe is too incomplete for him or her to automatically become an atheist who flatly denies the possibility of the existence of a god or something else beyond our understanding.
A true agnostic should not promote any religion.
What do y'all think?
Edited by Hellios - 11-Nov-2006 at 20:33
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Adalwolf
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Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 20:41 |
Originally posted by Hellios
A true agnostic should merely not deny the possibility of the existence of a god or something else beyond our understanding and should not try to promote nor suppress anybody's beliefs about such things.
A true agnostic accepts that mankind's understanding of the universe is too incomplete for him or her to automatically become an atheist who flatly denies the possibility of the existence of a god or something else beyond our understanding.
A true agnostic should not promote any religion.
What do y'all think?
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I'm not agnostic, but what you say makes sense. Agnostics are those with commitmit issues. (jk)
Edited by Adalwolf - 11-Nov-2006 at 20:42
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