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Prove your god's existence.

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Hellios View Drop Down
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Prove your god's existence.
    Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 19:15
I kindly invite anybody to prove their god's existence.
 
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 19:22
Here's an attempt to prove my god's existence:
 
 
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 19:47
As an atheist, I am still opposed to 'proving' the exitence of any God. As I cannot prove there is none, and others cannot prove there is, there is little use but leave each and every one in peace to decide for themselves what to believe.
 
And I do not see how a book written several thousand years ago as a guideline for a people living in the desert can prove the existence of a God.

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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 20:31
Here you are,
 
 
I even believe the Bible, Koran and Torah have borrowed from it.
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 21:17
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

As an atheist, I am still opposed to 'proving' the exitence of any God.  As I cannot prove there is none, and others cannot prove there is, there is little use but leave each and every one in peace to decide for themselves what to believe.
 
If you're a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable, and/or one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god, then you're an agnostic, not an atheist.  See "agnosticism".
 
Atheism is a disbelief in the existence of deity; the doctrine that there is no deity.
 
 
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

And I do not see how a book written several thousand years ago as a guideline for a people living in the desert can prove the existence of a God.
 
Precisely.
 


Edited by Hellios - 10-Nov-2006 at 21:19
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 21:23

As an agnostic, I am certain that both believers and atheists are wrong!

I simply don't know if there is a god or not! Moreover, I insist nobody knows!
 
Even more, I claim no human being will ever know if God exist or not!
 
Why?
 
Because human beings are finite beings, limited in time (a human lifetime) and space (fit in a standar coffin).
 
On the other side God, if exists, is by definition INFINITE.
 
Therefore, there is no way a finite being can even understand the infinite. George Cantor, the creator of the transfinite mathematics tried but he lost his mind in the process, and ended a real crazy fellow. LOL
 
So I say you both, believers and atheistics, why are you so centain of something that escape your capabilities?
 
Pinguin
 


Edited by pinguin - 10-Nov-2006 at 21:25
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 21:55
Originally posted by pinguin

 
On the other side God, if exists, is by definition INFINITE.
 
Therefore, there is no way a finite being can even understand the infinite. George Cantor, the creator of the transfinite mathematics tried but he lost his mind in the process, and ended a real crazy fellow. LOL
i so agree with this, thats the logic of my own understanding. The pure state of infinity trips up all other religous overlays due to the fact it cant be defined (outside of the human defintion of infinity that isErmm).

Originally posted by pinguin

So I say you both, believers and atheistics, why are you so centain of something that escape your capabilities?

You cant be certain, though i think infinity can be proven mathematically. You may experinace that state but you cant truelly understand it. To understand it in a human way, requires a degree of logical thought which would only bound a person to the world of logic. The eastern traditions may try to experiance it via deep meditation, intellectually its simply impossible
.




Edited by Leonidas - 10-Nov-2006 at 21:57
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 07:33
Originally posted by hellios

If you're a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable, and/or one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god, then you're an agnostic, not an atheist.  See "agnosticism".
 
Atheism is a disbelief in the existence of deity; the doctrine that there is no deity.
 
No, really? Duh. I effing well know what the difference is, wiseass. I do not believe in any deity, I also do not believe there is 'something out there', I believe there is absolutely nothing, and therefore I am NOT an agnostic.
But I consider that my personal choice. I do not force my opinion upon others, and I respect other people's different beliefs, as long as they do not force their opinion upon me. I find it rather shortsighted to think that bein an atheist somehow makes me incpable of being tolerant towards others, and I cannot but conclude that this judgement of yours comes from your own inability to tolerate other opinions.
 
Originally posted by penguin

As an agnostic, I am certain that both believers and atheists are wrong!
As you cannot prove your beliefs either, you are in little position to consider others wrong. I do not consider anybody wrong. I can only decide for myself waht to believe, any attempt to decide what is right or wrong for others to believe is an act of inmeasurable arrogance.
 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 07:59
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Originally posted by penguin

As an agnostic, I am certain that both believers and atheists are wrong!
As you cannot prove your beliefs either, you are in little position to consider others wrong. I do not consider anybody wrong. I can only decide for myself waht to believe, any attempt to decide what is right or wrong for others to believe is an act of inmeasurable arrogance.
 
 
You can believe whatever you wish. I was just declaring my believe as a hard line agnostic. And yes, agnostics have no much in common with atheists at all.
 
Pinguin
 
 
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 08:03
Originally posted by Paul

Here you are,
 
http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
 
I even believe the Bible, Koran and Torah have borrowed from it.

verry funny paul south park episode 1012 GO GOD GO
 
 
 
Back to topic you cant prove it. If you could know it forsure it wouldnt be faith but knowing.
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 08:16
I think agnosticism, logically speaking, leads automatically to atheism.

If you believe that (a) god's existance cannot be proven or disproven, that means you cannot attribute any describing characteristics to god. (Like "good", "all powerful", "omniscient", "creating",etc.) After all, if you attribute such characteristics to god, that means you can induce his existance or non-existance out of those characteristics.

So in other words, if you are agnostic, you cannot attribute any characteristics to god, because that would take away the improvability of his (non-existence). Hower as you cannot attribue any characteristics to god, the word 'god' becomes completely meaningless. So that means frases like 'god exists', 'god doesn't exist' and 'god's existance is unknowable' are as meaningless as 'asdf exists', 'asdf doesn't exist' and 'asdf's existance is unknowable'.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 08:49
But you can't prove God doesn't exist either!
 
As we say in Spanish "Ateo gracias a Dios"  LOL
(I am atheistic, thanks to God)
 
Agnosticism is more about recognizing human limitations in knowledge than anything else. Is a modest attitude before the glory of the Creation and the recognition of our lack of knowledge about the purpose of it, if any.
 
Pinguin
 
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  Quote the Bulgarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 09:20
Just found the thread. Very interesting, gents, very interesting indeed. I've posted this elsewhere, but this is the topic that its best suited for, so I hope you don't mind me repeating myself. My goal is to prove the nonexistance of god(s). Smile
 
 
...First of all, let me ask you something. How is it that you know your religion is the right one? (this was a question directed at a particular forumer). So many of them exist. It's a gamble whether you'll be born in a Christian, Jewish, Buddisst, etc. family. For 99% of people their parents religion determins their own. So whether you'll worship the "Right God" or not, who ever he is, is a matter of chance. Now that is plain unfairness to the good people, who were just born in the wrong families. Let's say Allah is the one true God. Then all the goodhearted Christians, Jews, etc. go to hell. Why? Nonbelievers go to hell. It's in the Kuran. It's as simple as that. And vice versa. But then why didn't Allah give them the chance to worship him, after all he is allmighty? Some would say that he did. They know about Muhhamad and are free to convert to Islam. But what about the people born before the birth of Muhhamad or Christ? No matter how good they were they'll still burn.
 
But what's more suspicious is the concept of the entire creation of the Universe and Mankind. They're all alike. Muhhammad coppied the Bible and made some minor adjustments. He even went as far as steeling Jusus from Christianity. Couldn't he have been a little more creative? If you've read one Holy book you've read them all. How can you still believe that  the Universe is 5000 years old, that God created man out of mud and all those things now that we know that the Universe is 12 to 20 billion years old, how life began and evolved and how mankind eventually came into being.
 
You're viewing your religion in an absolutistic manner - the one true and eternal one. That is because you're immersed in it. You must rise above that to observe it in its true essense. 
 
All religious beliefs, starting with the first and most primitive ones, came into being as an attempt by the first people to explane the world around them. Any phenoemenon they didn't understand they contributed to a superior godlike force. Pagan mythologies are all alike. They all have a God of thunder, a God of fire, rain, etc. Just look up Slavic mythology in Wiki and compare it to Scandinavian, Baltic and Celtic. You wouldn't know whitch is whitch. In time religion started to encopass not only teachings about the outer physical world, but it ever more focused on man's spiritual and inner world. Religious beliefs are a part, a stage of the evolution of human thought, just as slavery, feudalism and capitalism were stages of the evolution of human society. Now religion is nearing its end. Today people don't need it to understand the reality around them, they have science to do that. And now they know that what religion tells them about the physycal aspect of the world is a lie and they don't believe it any more. They don't need it any more as a moral guide either. It's becoming obsolete. It's as simple as that. Of course, this process isn't instant, but comare modern times with the Renessanse and you'll see what a long way it's gone and how much it has excellerated. In the Muslim world it's at an earlier stage, but non the less it's only a matter of time. It's inevitable as the transition from a primitive society to a slavetrading one, from a slavetrading one to a feudal one, etc., is. It's just a stage in the evolution of the way we think, the way we persieve the world arround us and the phylosophyc system that goes with this perception. Before the Renessanse God was seen as the only one capable of Creation, of having wisdom and thus the only one worthy of worship. People were viewed as insignifficant and worthless. But with the Renessanse came the idea that Man is the only being gifted with intelect and the ability to contemplate, to understand and to create. Thus he became the center of the a new moral system. Before man worshiped God and sacrificed himself in His name. Now Man became the object of worship. He was placed in the center of the Universe. That view will prevail worldwide, believe me. Maybe not in this generation, probably not in the next one, but when men land on a planet orbiting the nearest star the name Allah will be forgotten.



Edited by the Bulgarian - 11-Nov-2006 at 09:30
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 10:48
I fully agree with your analysis, the BGian.

If we assume that God, an omnipowerful and omnipresent entity, exists it leads to paradoxes such as the question whether God is so powerful that she can create a stone that she cannot lift. Such paradoxes are contradictory, and invalidate the assumption of God's existence.

That is why I have chosen to be an atheist.
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  Quote the Bulgarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 11:01
Hmm, I've never heard of this particular paradox you're talking about, but no matter.
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  Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 11:28

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  Quote the Bulgarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 11:52
Originally posted by bg_turk


That is why I have chosen to be an atheist.
 
Were you religious at some point in your life? Are you from Kurdjali? What's the situation over there, do people stick to their religious practices or atheism has gained the upper hand? How much have Bulgarian culture and way of life affected the Turks in Bulgaria? I imagine a Turk from Kurdjali is more "Western-like" than a Turk from Diarbekir. Or am I wrong? Please, inform me on the subject.
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 13:03
I believe in man's lacking ability to know anything about such matters, the existence of a god or gods cannot be proven empirically. This doesn't mean there can't be any, but it is beyond our human senses to say anything about it. Clinging to some package deal of truths like our major world religions must therefore stem from either ignorance, fear of the uncertainties of life and death, social pressure or plain traditionalist stubborness. You can usually find at least one of these in every adherent.

Personally I hope there is a God and some form of universal justice by which we will all be judged, and of course; a life after this one. I often pray too, in the hope that something like this God-entity we imagine exists, but if I were to say I knew it existed then I'd just be embarassing myself intellectually.
    

Edited by Reginmund - 11-Nov-2006 at 13:05
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  Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 13:34
People do not need to know. It is a matter of faith, not proof. 

Edited by Adalwolf - 11-Nov-2006 at 16:25
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 14:31
Originally posted by pinguin

As an agnostic, I am certain that both believers and atheists are wrong!

I simply don't know if there is a god or not! Moreover, I insist nobody knows!  
 
You also don't know that fairies, ghosts, UFO's and the yeti exist.
 
But it's absurd to say just because you don't know, you entertain the idea they might exist. Then to go on to criticise people who say they're nonsense.
 
Defending cranky ideas and their critics on ground they're unknowable puts you firmly with the cranks. I've always thought agnostic are allies to religious believers and enemies of athiests.
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