who are Turks? The current people in Anatolia?

The Xiong n were a group of Mongol and Turkic tribes ruled by a Turkic dynasty.

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The Xiong n were a group of Mongol and Turkic tribes ruled by a Turkic dynasty.

There were non-Turkic and non-Mongolic peoples too, like the Tokharians and Wusuns.

[/QUOTE]Thank you Ihsan.I believed early turkish were europoid.But I can not allow Xiongnu were europoid(I think Wusun and Tokhars were europoid).Basic family of Xiongnu  were pure Mongoloid.I can't show you any document about that now.Because I unpossible for show you that document.
Could you confirm Xiongnu were non Turkic,non Mongolic.


Edited by Hardel

Originally posted by ihsan Most of them were Mongoloid but some, like the Dingling, had a few Caucasoid features such as large amounts of body hair.

 

What other Caucasoid features did the Dingling have? High nose bridges + deep socket eyes (this combination would make the Dingling almost full Caucasoids)? Can you confirm this with primary sources or DNA tests? I'm aware that some of the Dingling may have been part Caucasoids since the skulls of the ancient cultures in the Minusinsk Basin/southern Yenisei areas were identified as Caucasoids and the Dingling came from around that region but I would not be so sure that those Caucasoids would have affected the entire population of the Dingling or even the majority.

Edited by therecanbeonlywar!

Originally posted by Oguzoglu I dont think only Dinglings had caucasoid features. Most of the western nomads had different features than Mongoloid nomads, such as a less rounder face, sharper cheek bones (for example: Oguz Turks), strong beards...

 

Well, wasn't the discussion about the early Turkic nomads like the Xiongnu and Dingling? There weren't any Oghuz Turks back then, not during the time of the Xiongnu; at least they weren't called by the term Oghuz. Ihsan says that the Oghuz Turks were ultimately descended from the Dingling, since the Oghuz Turks probably descended from the Tiele, who descended from the Gaoche, and who in turn descended from the Dingling during Xiongnu times. And the Dingling came from the northwestern Mongolia/southern Siberia region.

 

If I remember correctly, according to some document I found online about DNA tests done on tombs in Outer Mongolia dated to the Xiongnu period, there existed at least some Caucasoid people (probably some of the Xiongnu subject peoples like the Wusun, Tocharians/Yue Zhi, some eastern Saka) among the Xiongnu. However, the overwhelming majority (89%) of the corpses in those tombs were Mongoloid. One startling statement made in the article though was that analysis of the Xiongnu tombs concluded that the ethnic diversity in the overall Xiongnu population was not much different from that of modern Mongolian populations, indicating that the ethnic character of the Turkic Xiongnu wasn't much different from present-day Mongols.

 

On the ethnicity of the Oghuz, they may have been more Mongoloid back then than they are now; however, again I don't doubt the existence of Caucasoids among the Oghuz since their expansion into the western steppes must have absorbed the previous nomads living in the area, Indo-European nomads like the Wusun, Saka or Sarmatians into their population. However, unlike what many of you guys say, these nomads were not Turkic; the Saka and the Sarmatians were Indo-Iranians while the Wusun were either Tocharian or Iranian or both.

Edited by therecanbeonlywar!

But now most present turks are mostly caucasoid genetically, and the majority of the population does not have much/very little nomadic turkish blood.

Originally posted by Oguzoglu As you will understand from the name Oguz (Ok- means tribe, uz- the old Turkish plural addition), the name referres to "tribes", and there are 24 different tribes forming Oguz nation. Oguz people existed long before the existance of Xiong Nu, and before the name "Turk" was used to describe them as a whole nation.

 

Ihsan from CHF:

 

"There are many theories on the meaning of "Oghuz", but the most logical-seeming one is "Tribes", formed from the Turkic word Oq (Arrow, also used for Tribe) and from the Turkic suffix -z; Oq-z -> Oquz -> Oghuz, as it developed probably. In history, we have the On Oq (Later Western Tujue, "Ten Tribes", Shixing 十姓, Toquz Oghuz ("Nine Tribes"), Sekiz Oghuz ("Eight Tribes" during early period of Uyghur Qaghanate) and �ch Oghuz ("Three Tribes", Qarluqs; but this is open to debate). Moreover, we have Oghur which is obviously Oghuz in Western Old Turkic (In WOT, -z changes to -r, the Chuvash people still speak such a Turkic language). They are earlierly noted as one of the subjects of the Huns in Europe, some historians think they are connected with the Western Dinglin 西丁零. They were a group of peoples divided into many sub-groups, such as the Kutrigurs, Utrigurs, Onogurs, Sharogurs, Bishogurs, etc..."

To Oguzoglu: I don't where you got the information that the Oghuz existed long before the Xiongnu. The earliest references to the Oghuz were when the Oghurs were described as a subject people of the Huns in Europe, a time when the Xiongnu were almost of no political significance in East and Central Asia. The Weilue mentions two branches of Dingling - one (probably the original) living around the Lake Baikal region, and one (probably migrants from the Lake Baikal Dingling) living west of the Wusun around the Irtysh river region. These Oghurs may have been connected with the Western Dingling living around the Irtysh river region. The Oghuz living in Transoxiana-Aral Sea in the 9th-10th centuries probably descended from the Dingling that stayed around the Lake Baikal region.

Originally posted by Oguzoglu As you will understand from The 24 tribes lived all over central asia and the western Oguz (��ok) lived expanded all over western steppes. They used to contain both Caucasoid and Mongoloid genes since those times. Also, the origins of steppe nomads arent clear. Their homelands arent identified, their ethnicites cannot be totally determined, and their expansions all over the world are huge...

 

As I've said, the Oghuz population living in the western steppes no doubt contained Caucasoids, as the policy of steppe nomads was primarily one of absorption; in this case, the remnants of Saka, Sarmatians, and further east, the Wusun, were probably incorporated into the Oghuz Turkic people during their migrations further west. However, some Oghuz peoples, like the Seljuqs moved into the Middle East, in places like Iran, where the overwhelming majority of the population were Indo-Iranians, who were Caucasoids. There can be no doubt that the Seljuqs later mixed with them, as well as other Oghuz people who had migrated from the steppe and mixed with the conquered populations. After having migrated to and living in lands inhabited predominantly by Caucasoids, it is no wonder that the majority of today's Turkmens are Caucasoids. In this sense, the Oghuz of the past were more Mongoloid than today's Turkmens.

 

And the first known steppe nomads may have been the Cimmerians, who Herodotus describes as the ancestors of the Saka. It is actually quite established that the Saka spoke an Iranian-related language and the majority of their population consisted of Caucasoids (though some tombs in ancient Kazakhstan reveal that some eastern Saka populations contained a few Mongoloids as well). If what Herodotus says about the Cimmerians were right, then the Cimmerians were also an Iranian nomad people.

Edited by therecanbeonlywar!

padisah first off all I m not your boy second off all you are not in a position to tell me what to believe.please be carefull if you dont like an idea it does not make it untrue with all due respect watch your language first then discuss thanks

 

The word "Turk" has two main meanings in Turkish:....................................

Now this is new, I've only heard of :
in turkish: "turk=strength"
in persian "turk= "beautiful youth, barbarian, robber"

Interesting theory indeed, but if you as your theory suggest were the:
"multiplier, reproducer, pullulater" wouldn't we find some of the mongoloid genes (that you still have) in some of the population of, as you mention "to the walls of Vienna"????

Here is proof that you have these mongoloid genes, the question is where can they be found, if they can!!!  in the rest of Europe??

"Skeletons from the most recent graves also contained DNA sequences similar to those in people from present-day Turkey. This supports other studies indicating that Turkish tribes originated at least in part in Mongolia at the end of the Xiongnu period."

http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/07_03/ancient.sh tml



Edited by Phallanx

True, Turk also means "strong" as it's the one the most known from your view. But it's not the direct meaning.

By the way the words matching with "Turk" are the same in Persian. Not the ones you gave.

Originally posted by Phallanx in persian "turk= "beautiful youth, barbarian, robber"

ABSOLUTE LIE

GREEK MEMBERS TRY TO SLANDER IN EVERY OPPORTUNITY