who are Turks? The current people in Anatolia?

Don't put words in my mouth. I said "more asian genes" than Turks in Turkey which is true. I did not say most uygurs look mongolian (although some do).  You and some other people seem to have problems with reading what I wrote here. I am totally wasting my time repeating what I said before so people like you don't put words in my mouth I never said.

I don't even know why I am talking to someone as racist and narrow minded as you are....

Comparing to your huge knowledge on the issue we are ignorant of course. You are the authority and best Turkish intellectual living abroad in USA which is also the symbol of literacy, "freedom" and peace on the world. 

If they are treating you as second class human being this not our nor your mistake. If you think that by denying your identity you will become a "loved one" you are seriously wrong. History is not a tool to treat your psychological problems that you get in Germany and USA.

Adamlarin kicindan ayrilmazsan yuzune bok gelince aglama, baskasini da suclama. 

This is a very good idea. Do not vaste your time here. Ikile......

You are saying racist to us. A man whose name Mustafa from Kayseri Central Anatolia, raised in Germany, now lives in USA is accusing us being racist. He is the one who tries to "sell" us the racist Hitler Aryan teories are accusing us by being racist.

You are a dolphine living in a pool Mustafa.  

And here we go again. The eternal battle against illogical thinking, propaganda, racism and just plain ignorance. But someone has to do it I guess...might as well be me (although I would appreciate some help here ).....

--If you had actually READ what I wrote before in this thread you would actually know the answer to these questions. But since you have chosen to stay ignorant, you will just have to go back and read some of the earlier posts in this thread. Plus, I fail to see how being a Turk or Muslim *automatically* gives you all this knowledge about the topics we are talking about here.

--Oh really? Is that why the official Turkish spoken today could *still* not stand on its own feet without persian and arabic? Heck....the word for "yes" in standard Turkish ("Evet") is even a fully arabic word with has nothing to do with Turkic languages where "yes" is universally "he" or "ha"...even among non-standard dialects in Turkey itself. You're falling for propaganda here.

--What a bunch of nonsense. "Daily spoken Turkish" among most turks was/is still various "Anadolu" dialects and NOT the Istanbul dialect that was chosen to be the standard language. Anadolu Turkish is VASTLY different from the standard Turkish. That is why someone like you will have HUGE trouble even properly understanding someone from a village in Kayseri or Malatya or other places where they still speak an Anadolu Oguz dialect.

--Again...more nonsense. The "ordinary" people in Turkey did not have any easier time understanding the Istanbul dialect, complete with different vocabulary and grammar, which was forced on them. I see the need for a common language in a country like Turkey where there are/were SO many different Oguz dialects all in one place. But, the policy of Turkish snobbish Turkish society and media has been to ridicule and belittle everyone who speaks/spoke an Anadolu dialect by saying: "Look, they can't even speak Turkish properly."  It would have been cleverer to just recognize that there are many different dialects in Turkey (some of which are NOT even Oguz dialects) and still have a common language without belittling every other dialect besides the standard Istanbul dialect.

Apparently, you are part of this snobbish, ignorant mass of people who does not recognize that Turkey does have different dialects which are not all that easily understood by people who are not used to them due to different grammar and vocabulary. Unfortunately, due to people like you and a targeted media campaign, those dialects are dying out because the poor people who speak them feel ashamed about speaking them. My poor mother, who is from Kayseri (just like me) feels ashamed abour her OWN Kayseri dialect when she goes to Istanbul to visit relatives!!! I have to tell her that it's actually ok that she speaks her language and there is nothing to be ashamed about. Our Kayseri dialect (along with other Anadolu dialects) has more in common both in vocabulary and grammar with most other Turkic languages than the "standard" Istanbul dialect could ever have! So, how do you feel about Turkish society making people ashamed about speaking their own language which is hundreds of years old?

--Man...your ignorance is amazing. But unfortunately you are not alone. There are others like you from Turkey in this forum who display an amazing amount of resilience when it comes to making themselves ridiculous and displaying their ignorance. Although I have said this in this thread before, I know that you have huge trouble actually reading anything written in this thread before opening your mouth and spewing nonsense here, so I will repeat it here again one last time. I'll just cut and paste something I wrote to "Turk" here in this thread who also claimed that there is no different grammar between standard Turkish and Anadolu dialects:

Apperantly you have no clue about Anadolu Turkish to claim that. Or maybe you just think the different grammar is just "wrong" Turkish spoken by "naive" and ignorant peasants who don't even know how to speak "Turkish" properly, right? Let me give you a little lesson in *one* version of Anadolu Turkish (the Kayseri version...but quite common elsewhere too):

"Ben gidiyom" "Sen gidiyong" "o gidiyo" "biz gidiyok" "siz gidiyonguz" "onnar gidiyo(llar)"

Question: "Siz onnarnang gidiyonguzmu?" etc...etc...etc. (Standard Turkish: Siz onlar ile gidiyormusunuz?)

Suggestion: "Hading, carsiya gidek!" (Standard Turkish: "Hadi bakalim, carsiya gidelim."

Also: There is no such thing as "evet or hayir" to express "yes" and "No" in Anadolu Turkish. We just use the more or less standard Turkic words "He"  and "Yok." I have no idea anyway where "evet" and "hayir" came from...no other Turkic people use those words including (originally) most of Turkey outside Istanbul.

There are many other examples I could give. Are you saying this is just "badly spoken" standard Turkey Turkish? If this is not different grammar from standard Turkey Turkish, then what is it? Oh...I see...it's the language of the "cahil" and uneducated who just don't know any better (the typical comment speakers of this dialect get in Turkey). Funny that I am both educated *and* know better (better than you anyway...haha) and still prefer to speak that language.

Anybody who knows *anything* about the grammar of Turkic languages will tell you that there are two different grammatical structures displayed above. But since you are ignorant and have no idea about the dialects spoken in Turkey you would now know these things. I pity you.

--It's not just accents. You have to come back to reality. If you go to Liverpool in England and speak to a native you won't understand a thing they are saying. It's a different dialect of english. Same applies to Germans from Hamburg going to southern Bavaria and speaking to locals who still speak the old Bavarian language there. They don't understand a thing. And, of course, same applies to you if you go to a village in central or eastern anatolia and actually manage to find someone who is not ashamed about speaking their own dialect. If they do speak it you will also sit there and wonder what these people are talking about (just like you are wondering what I am talking about right now since you are not getting a single thing I am saying).

---Hahaha...yeah..."sources" like Wikipedia and people like you? I think I will pass on those "sources".   Maybe one day, once you have actually learned how think logically, you will realize how ignorant you sound, but that day may just never come.

--Wrong again. There are competing theories out there called "out of Africa" and "multiple regional development" theories. I happen to have written a thesis on this stuff. But that's besides the point. I thought this is a "Steppes of Central Asia" forum and not and African one. Again, you're making no sense.

--I don't decide anything. I take scientific discoveries (real one as opposed to your anecdotal ones influences by wishful thinking, racism and propaganda) analyze them and draw conclusions from them just like any logically thinking person should do. I don't just repeat regurgitated nonsense like you and others like you are doing and declare that crap as "fact."  To find the origin of a culture you have to go back to its roots. Have you read the genetic research done on the Huns that shows that the first wave (which did not mix with europeans) was gentically east asian and had NO caucasian genes? Again....do me and yourself a favor and read this thread thoroughly before posting more crap. I have explained everything here several times before to almost equally hardheaded and ignorant people like you, so I don't want to waste my time repeating everything again just because you are too lazy or inept to read all the relevant material already posted in this thread.

--Oooh...7000 years ago huh? People have trouble following the Turkic and Mongol people further back than the time of the Huns and you go to 7000 years? That's really reliable research (or should I say speculation).  Also, it would help if you quoted the scientific journals or publications where you found this "information" instead of just throwing around with names like Miller and Nemeth. You have obviously never written a scientific paper nor read one.

--Did you pull this out of you ass again? Where is the genetic analysis that shows that especially "uralics" and asians got mixed into the German population during historic and prehistoric times when the germans were not even moving further than 30km away from their villages during their whole lives? Are you even listening to a SINGLE word I am writing here? I might as well speak to a wall....

--I am not talking about my lifespan. You're the one imagining I am since you don't seem to get things easily by nature. I am talking about historical timespans. And yes, the common peasant folk (which was the majority of the population) did not move anywhere. It was merchants and sodiers that were moving around...that's all. That's what "sedentary" means...you don't move. You plough your land and you're born and die on the same land. It's been like that most of human history with sedentary people until the advent of modern transportation.

I would not say "our" knowledge since your knowledge is so limited that it would be an insult to the word "knowledge" to call whatever ignorance and misinformation you are spreading "knowledge."

--What? Hahaha...oh my god this must be so embarrassing for you (that is, if you actually knew how stupid all this sounds...but ignorance is bliss I guess). Germans went from Africa to the Crim peninsula and then all the way to America? Wow.....when did they arrive in Germany, Mr. Ignorance?   If you have not noticed, we're not talking about some odd settlers here and about time WAY before there was any "America" in the minds of the Europeans.

--I see...I am still waiting for your quotations from scientific research done on this and your logical conclusions drawn therefrom. Otherwise, you might as well pull all of this "information" out of your ass.  

--See? This is what I mean by a "simple brain" like yours. You can only see on the surface and can't go any further. Since you see that all these people mentioned above look Caucasian you conclude that the original turks from mongolia and altai mountain also MUST have looked caucasian. This is the stupides and most ignorant crap I have ever heard. I don't even know why I am wasting my time with someone like you. You totally lack any logic and have done absolutely NO research but stubbornly argue the wildest points here. OF COURSE these people look caucasian today because they are mostly TURKICIZED native populations that have been living there for millenia. Do you think millions of Turkic settlers in horse waggons (like in the wild west of America) came to western asia and Turkey to settle the land and kill the natives? No...turks conquered the population became turkicized with some mixing along the way. I hope this makes sense EVEN to you.

YOUR reality is unfortunately different from THE reality. Your reality takes place in dreamland where a simple mind like yours feels warm and cozy and secure and all its wishful thinking becomes reality.

You would not even see the light if I held it in front of your nose and said: "look, it's light".

I did not make this up. It's the result of scientific research. There are huge turkicized populations out there today. Again, there weren't millions of Turks to begin with to be able to settle the huge areas they conquered. Their homeland, the steppes, was only able to support small numbers of nomads. This process of "converting" the local population was very common throughout history, not just among nomads (but someone like you would not know that). Whenever a population changed rulers the population adopted the language AND religion of the new ruler. It's been like that for millenia.

--Wrong again. There is substantial debate about the origins of the Yoruks and if they were originally turkic at all or if they were turkicized. Of course your simple mind thinks that blonde people came from central asia to Turkey although it is much more likely that some crusaders raped some locals on the way to the holy land. But again, that might be going to deep for a simple mind.  

Since you make it a habit to miss the point completely it does not surprise me that you missed it again. I never said that people in Turkey are not turks. Turks are part of a cultural phenomenon nowadays and not part of a race. Get this into your head. The discussion was about the origins of the turks (as I have said a million times before and you still don't get it.)

--Which you just pulled out of your ass again. This "assimilation of conquerors" as you call it only works in societies where the native culture is utterly superior and the population so large as to not be killed off or forced into submission as in China, which is the best example for that. The situation in central asia and Turkey was different...but again you would now know that.

--another baseless assumption. You really ARE a one man comedy show. You should have starred in the movie "Dumb And Dumber" as the third main character.

--Of course they can. Look at all the Turkic countries now. That's exactly what happened. Again, don't think millions of horse waggons moved to central asia, turkey, southern russia , crimea and the balkans from the altai mountains, mongolia and siberia.

Please don't insult logic, science and history by taking those words into your mouth.   

--Yes it must me....hahaha. What a wonderful example of "logical reasoning" hahaha...oh my god I am going to crack up. This guy is a born comedian! Of course it's not the fact that asians ARE actually a different race...no, no no....i must be thinking such "nonsense" because I was living in Germany at some point....hahaha. Have you thought about doing this show on TV? It's hilarious!

---hahahaha...oh my god! This is getting better and better! How much more crap can come out of this guy's mouth?

--Yes. "both humans" are homo sapiens...hahaha. I did not know that there were only two humans on this planet. If I don't show this post to someone immediately they won't believe me how much hilarious crap I am dealing with here. By the way, recognizing that there are and have been different races on this planet does not equel racism. What you have been claiming (caucasians coming to Turkey from central asia) is part of "white supremacist" thinking which is utterly racist, even if you don't recognize it. My recognition of the existance of races is just plain fact.

 From that perspective we can say that there is no mixed society.  

--I am not influence by *any* lifestyle. I have broken away from the restraints of national thinking long time ago and I am glad I did. I suggest you do the same. As I have said before, I don't fall for any Propaganda, be it American, European or Turkish. I draw my own conclusions after examining the facts.

This whole attitude of considering entire nations as the "enemy" has taken us into this deep crap in the first place. You speak almost like George Bush believe it or not, who is one of the stupidest presidents the US has ever seen: "We're going to find the ENEMY, smoke 'em out of their holes, and kill 'em!"  This is the kind of propaganda talk that creates problems and you are contributing to it.

Mustafa

Yes unfortunately you are right. But claiming that Andulus Islam civilization in Spain has been built by the ancestors of Vandals as Mustafa claimed deserved something. He got racist view that he is not even aware of it. "Someone" has injected him "the basic information" that "only the westerners, westerners ancestors or westerners' related peoples can built civilizations".

And one more important point is that it is a high probability that he is not Muslim but ethnically Turk. If we translate it he may be "rised by missionaires". There is a huge difference between "being a Christian" and "Christian rised by missionaires". The difference is as huge as between human being and a creature.

Does *anything* intelligent ever come out of this guy's mouth? Please, someone tell me this guy is not representing the viewpoints of the majority of the people of Turkey today...please!

I'm not a christian Turk you simpleton. Are you pulling these ideas out of your ass? Just because I don't agree with you I don't have to be Christian. As if all the muslims in the world would agree with your crazy ideas. This is not about being christian or muslim, this is about educated and not-educated or just simply intelligent or DUMB.  I will be the first one to say that your posts show that you are neither educated nor intelligent. Otherwise you would not ask stupid questions such as asking a guy with the name MUSTAFA if he is Christian.

Let me also be the first one to tell you that pretty much everyone who converts to Christianity chooses a Christian name, just like people converting to Islam choose a muslim name. Of course you would never think that far.  Time to turn your brain on.....it can do more than just fill up your skull.

By the way...what's wrong with being Christian? If you're Christian you're automatically wrong and an "enemy."? Is that what you are saying? I am sure the Christian members of this forum appreciate that a lot....It's funny how someone like you, who has no clue about anything loves to generalize about everyone else in the world.  Do you have any friends that are not Turks to be able to intelligently speak about other nationalities? I'm talking about real friends, not just people that were temporarily unfortunate enough to have to endure your broken English and illogical "arguments"....

This discussion has been so much racists so I don't know if I dear to
make a comment...

Is it possible that "turkic" in old manyucript rather refers to the Uralic
culture, who I remiscent is somewhat similar to (East) Mongolian culture?

Tthere is a non-accepted theory that "Turk" (at least in
Scandinavian and Germanic sources from Viking Age) refers to Finno-
Ugric groups and individuals. For example, the voyage of Erik the Red-
head exploration of Vinland (North America) mentions how a tysktyrk
("German-T�rk"), is in service. This is by most historian considered to
refer to Turkic ethno, but by the non-accepted branch to a male of
Finno-Ugric descent. Adam of Bremen also mentions "Turks" (Turci)...