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Rise of Islam

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Ptolemy View Drop Down
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  Quote Ptolemy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rise of Islam
    Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 00:11

The Persians were definately weak. They just concluded two decades and a half of warfare with the Romans, followed by a civil war. The Roman armies had pierced into their very heart and took their major cities, so yes, they were weak.

There is some evidence that Egyptians may have helped the Arabs with their conquest (or so I hear).

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  Quote HulaguHan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 01:43

I copied the following from Wikipedia

Do not cut and paste when it comes to historical facts. Rely on the respective book such as Rene Grousset' s Empire of the steps.

Among these generals was the teen-aged Muhammad bin Qasim, who in 712 was sent to Sindh in India. Compared to his general Hajjaj was more hardline insisting that pagans (or those who were not people of the book) be killed or enslaved.

Qutaibah bin Muslim was sent to conquer Turkestan which he did, even penetrating the borders of China and getting a tribute payment from the Chinese emperor. Perhaps his most successful general was Musa bin Nusair who consolidated control over North Africa and who sent Tariq bin Ziyad to invade Spain.

 

Qutaiba conwuered Sogdia todays Uzbekistan which was a PErsian region those days. Turks invade there correct but that region became Turkiified in the times of Timurlenk.

There was no Turkestan in those days. Turkestan is a new region ans is the word given to the region of

Western Turkistan

Turkmenistan , Uzbekistan, Kazakhistan, Kirghizistan

Eastern Turkistan

Uighur region in China.

In India conquests were achieved by first Ghaznavids then Timurid Baburs.

You did not reach Chinese border. You invaded Tashkent, Chinese attacked you, it was Chinese who reached arabs. 

You should thank us, Karluk assault from north saved you from chinese slaughter in Talas.

Look at the map and see where Talas is. See whether China or Abbasids (who were mainly Persian, that is another story) made the campaign.

those were arabs not turkish

Ghazne Empire and Babur Empire are pure Turkish, pure...

 



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  Quote HulaguHan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 02:01

But these aside, Abbasid and Umayyad Empires were as strong as Alexander' s, no doubt. Lets just make something clear, but. These empires were the USA of 8th century. Only Franks and Turks stopped them.

It was actually Turkish Empires such as Turgish Empire and 2nd Gokturk Empire who played the aggressive guy, trying to invade arabic lands. but Uighur, Karluk, Basmil alliance changed much things. Gokturks were demolished and Uighurs took control. In those days Talas occured, Chinese attacked arabs. We saved the arabs , like we saved them in the Crusades.



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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 12:49

Originally posted by Ptolemy

There is some evidence that Egyptians may have helped the Arabs with their conquest (or so I hear).

at the time of Conquesting Persia, egypt was already part of the Caliphat so if there was some Egyptians in the Army led by Khalid bin AL-Waleed Doesnt mean they helped, they were part of the country.

i found this map showing the expansion of Arabs untill the Ummayad who were More Arabic than the later Abbasids

 

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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 12:57
Originally posted by HulaguHan

I copied the following from Wikipedia

Do not cut and paste when it comes to historical facts. Rely on the respective book such as Rene Grousset' s Empire of the steps.

Among these generals was the teen-aged Muhammad bin Qasim, who in 712 was sent to Sindh in India. Compared to his general Hajjaj was more hardline insisting that pagans (or those who were not people of the book) be killed or enslaved.

Qutaibah bin Muslim was sent to conquer Turkestan which he did, even penetrating the borders of China and getting a tribute payment from the Chinese emperor. Perhaps his most successful general was Musa bin Nusair who consolidated control over North Africa and who sent Tariq bin Ziyad to invade Spain.

 

Qutaiba conwuered Sogdia todays Uzbekistan which was a PErsian region those days. Turks invade there correct but that region became Turkiified in the times of Timurlenk.

There was no Turkestan in those days. Turkestan is a new region ans is the word given to the region of

Western Turkistan

Turkmenistan , Uzbekistan, Kazakhistan, Kirghizistan

Eastern Turkistan

Uighur region in China.

In India conquests were achieved by first Ghaznavids then Timurid Baburs.

You did not reach Chinese border. You invaded Tashkent, Chinese attacked you, it was Chinese who reached arabs. 

You should thank us, Karluk assault from north saved you from chinese slaughter in Talas.

Look at the map and see where Talas is. See whether China or Abbasids (who were mainly Persian, that is another story) made the campaign.

those were arabs not turkish

Ghazne Empire and Babur Empire are pure Turkish, pure...

 

i copied that just becouse it is English text talking about Islamic early expansion for more detailed history about islam i will have to check the Arabic Books the early once i wont rely on some strangers trying to tell us our history

iam talking at the period of the 7th century not the 14th century

the Generals at that times were Arabs Not Turkish

Turkish didnt come to power before the 10th century

and about China

if the chinese were able to destroy us and they did reach Arabic land why the hell the Chinese Emperore sends Gifts to the Caliphate?

 

 

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azimuth View Drop Down
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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 13:03

more maps

this one at year 661 AD

this one at year  750  ( the Ummayads)

 

 



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  Quote HulaguHan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 16:48

I honestly accept Arabic Empire was the strongest of its time in the first half of 8th centry. It was as great as Alexander' s Empire, sure. I have no doubt.

BUT

Take a look at this map, this has nothing conquered in Chinese and Indian territory.

If you say you came to Chinese territory, you are wrong. It was Chinese who attacked you but it was Tukish-Arabic alliance who beat Chinese so that they bowed down before all of us. Karluk Turks terminated their infantry. They sent you gifts but Uighur Turks did not consider the gifts sent to them, they invaded China.

Only the original Persian lands of Sogdia and Khwarizm; Khorasan (Afghanistand and Pakistan) is conquered in this map, actually Sogdia was temporarily conquered by Gokturks in 7th century however after Gokturk Empire was crashed by Chinese, we lost the control, Sogdians became independent. Even we do not consider these lands Turkified until the times of Timur, even in the times of Seljuks,  Khwarizm Shahdom, or Karahanids, land was Persian dominated.

Turkistan is a new region. After the Cengiz invasions, Turks settled to the place and Persians immigrated west to escape from slaughter. In the times of Timurlenk (Tamerlane), Semerkand was rebuilt, the inhabitants were mostly Turkmen. Later Uzbeks invaded Turkmen lands and destroyed Timurlenk' s Empire. Still Semerkand is in Uzbek hands today.

Turkmens moved west. For example Todays Turkmenistan is totally unrelated to the lands of Oguz (Turkmens) in 8th century. Those days Turks were living approximately same axis but to the north. lets say Mongolia and southern Russia. But Russian Invasions, and Chinese invasions pushed Turks to those regions.

India was first conquered by Ghaznavids, later whole conquest was done by Baburids (Mughals).

Significant conquests of Arabic Empire is actually the invasion of Iberia (Tariq Ibn Ziad), Persia (King Omer), Sogdia (Governer Qutaiba ibn Muslim). Well also the Roman Africa was conquered.

Originally posted by azimuth

 

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  Quote HulaguHan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 21:04

You did a good job Azimuth, very succesful start; however, could not keep it for the long term. Alexanders Empire was far more fragile than yours, do not worry, today world is Crusader oriented. I do not believe in western-eastern civilization. But most believes. I believe there is always one civilization and it can be anywhere in the world. They try to think a world which does not include, Chinese, Turks, Russians, Arabs, Persians, etc... We can not compare Arabic Empire and Hellenic Empire. Arabic Empire had better state organization. Alexanders Empire shattered after his death.

For the battle of Talas, celebrate it, it is your right, since you are one part of the alliance., but do not forget Karluks.

If we were not there result might be different.

People forget them. Always forget them.

Invading China is not a good thing, look at us, we invaded there, but they assimilated us. Yuan Dynasty.

However Timurlenk prepared an attack to china, to make them Muslim. I am sure he could do that but he prefered to fight against his brothers...



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  Quote HulaguHan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 21:06

This is the conwuest of India:

Mughals you know them, we Call them Babur Empire:

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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2005 at 11:44

Originally posted by HulaguHan

Take a look at this map, this has nothing conquered in Chinese and Indian territory..

well when i said India i didnt mean all Indian contenet, the most eastern part was called india too Pakistan was called india

and the northeastern part of that map was the Borderes of the Chinese Empire and Arabs Crossed it

when they say Alexander reached india they mean the area which is now Pakistan

Arabs went more north than Alexander's Army

the Macedonian Empire map

 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 05:29
Okay lets get this thing straight. Pakistan was never ever called India. No one here called the place "India". Sindh is in Pakistan.
 
The Arabs went as far as Lahore, but the lost the Punjab pretty quickly, the Jehlum remained a sort of boundry for centuries. It was in 1200 when the Khiljis and the rest went into what is now Bahrat the republic of India.
 
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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 13:30
lol  this thread started in Dec 2004, one of my first posts on this forum was here. how nice,Big%20smile
 
anyway i'll replay later when i have more time to search and double check what i wrote.
 
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 14:38
Trying to revive the PCME forum needs work!
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  Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2007 at 19:32
Originally posted by Temujin

sow aht? Islamic architecture spreads from Spain to Indonesia and from Africa to Russian Tatarstan province and Chinese Xinjiang province, how far did Hellenism spread?
 
Sorry but I must clear some things up here with this naive post. At its roots Islamic architecture is based on Persian and Roman, largely Roman(Byzantine). In turn, Romans themselves were very largely influenced by Hellenestic architecture. Of course this is not to say that Islamic architecture didnt develop into its own. I very muchly like Islamic architecture as it is very artistic but we musnt get ahead of ourselves and forget where the influence of certain peoples and cultures come from.
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  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2007 at 23:59
Originally posted by arch.buff

Originally posted by Temujin

sow aht? Islamic architecture spreads from Spain to Indonesia and from Africa to Russian Tatarstan province and Chinese Xinjiang province, how far did Hellenism spread?
 
Sorry but I must clear some things up here with this naive post. At its roots Islamic architecture is based on Persian and Roman, largely Roman(Byzantine). In turn, Romans themselves were very largely influenced by Hellenestic architecture. Of course this is not to say that Islamic architecture didnt develop into its own. I very muchly like Islamic architecture as it is very artistic but we musnt get ahead of ourselves and forget where the influence of certain peoples and cultures come from.
 
Not necceraily true arch.buff. The reason Islamic architecture seams to look like Byzantine architecture is because when we think of Islamic civilization in the western world we think of the Ottoman/Seljuk Turks. Arabs were great fertilizers of other people's culture. They developed styles of Persian, Egyptian, and Greek building techniques.
 
You're right Islamic archtecture was just a modifyed form of Middle East architecture but you make it seem it was Western and it is definitely not it was very Eastern.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2007 at 17:11
It was a fusion as befits the region it arose in.
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  Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2007 at 23:11
Originally posted by andrew

Originally posted by arch.buff

Originally posted by Temujin

sow aht? Islamic architecture spreads from Spain to Indonesia and from Africa to Russian Tatarstan province and Chinese Xinjiang province, how far did Hellenism spread?
 
Sorry but I must clear some things up here with this naive post. At its roots Islamic architecture is based on Persian and Roman, largely Roman(Byzantine). In turn, Romans themselves were very largely influenced by Hellenestic architecture. Of course this is not to say that Islamic architecture didnt develop into its own. I very muchly like Islamic architecture as it is very artistic but we musnt get ahead of ourselves and forget where the influence of certain peoples and cultures come from.
 
Not necceraily true arch.buff. The reason Islamic architecture seams to look like Byzantine architecture is because when we think of Islamic civilization in the western world we think of the Ottoman/Seljuk Turks. Arabs were great fertilizers of other people's culture. They developed styles of Persian, Egyptian, and Greek building techniques.
 
You're right Islamic archtecture was just a modifyed form of Middle East architecture but you make it seem it was Western and it is definitely not it was very Eastern.
 
 
Hello andrew, I am sorry if my post seems simple, as it does after re-reading it. Maybe I should clear some things up. The reason Islamic architecture looks like Byzantine architecture is because it was heavly influenced by it, I dont understand the arguement with this. Just type it in google and you will find an abundant amount of sources. And you are absolutely right as far as Arabs fertilizing other cultures such as the ones you listed, Persian, Greek, and Egyptian. As Islamic architecture aslo borrowed from these cultures as well. One needs only to observe my favorite mosque, The Dome of the Rock, one of the earliest mosques, to see the great influence of Roman(Byzantine) architecture. For your claims of western/eastern....whos to say?? Would you classify Byzantine as western or eastrern?? As it did differ from classical Roman. Would you classify classical Greek as eastern or western?? After all they were influenced by Pharaonic architecture. Its all relative, but I would agree we have a rough classification but the lines become a lil blurred when we look into the history of a subject such as colorful as architecture.
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 12:07
For your claims of western/eastern....whos to say?? Would you classify Byzantine as western or eastrern?? As it did differ from classical Roman. Would you classify classical Greek as eastern or western??

Seeing as it was the Eastern Roman Empire that was the original East. I don't think it is in anyway far to regard the Eastern empire as Western.

East vs West = Eastern Roman Empire vs Western Roman Empire originally.

And of course, the Persians Egyptians and Greeks are certainly not western.
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  Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 12:30
Exactly Omar. It's the Middle Eastern Roman empire.
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  Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 16:59
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

For your claims of western/eastern....whos to say?? Would you classify Byzantine as western or eastrern?? As it did differ from classical Roman. Would you classify classical Greek as eastern or western??

Seeing as it was the Eastern Roman Empire that was the original East. I don't think it is in anyway far to regard the Eastern empire as Western.

East vs West = Eastern Roman Empire vs Western Roman Empire originally.

And of course, the Persians Egyptians and Greeks are certainly not western.
 
It may appear very cut and dry to you, this labeling but it certainly isnt for many. Greeks obviously not being western?? I know many would pause at that statement.
 
And if the Romans were so western why did the take so much from the "eastern" greeks? You see there isnt always such a cut and dry line between the two, for instance the Eastern Roman Empire under Constantine would probably seem very "western", but that same culture under Constantine X appeared to western Europe as the "oriental eastern". Label them if you wish but to me the line becomes a little foggy depending on the view 
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