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Posts: 1914 		  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rise of Islam
    Posted: 29-Oct-2007 at 23:56
Originally posted by andrew

 if you start learning Western Civilization you start with Greece.
 
Yes, pretty much so because of the adoption of Ancient Greek values, principles, and even material aspects like architecture etc. as "Western Culture"
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Posts: 1379 		  Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2007 at 15:00
Very good point, Reginmund. It's actually a matter of definition, indeed. As we are, professional or amateur, historians, we should define it objectively and historically correctly. 
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Posts: 1943 		  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2007 at 14:32
Definitions of "the West" vary and your definition is but one of them, according to which of course you are right, and this is the way definitions are often used. In general however you will rarely find a scholarly consensus on definitions; they are among the most disputed subjects as they are a decisive factor in any historical treatise.
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Posts: 1379 		  Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2007 at 14:26
We discussed this before If I recall correctly. But anyway, I believe the West means Western Europe and its civilization, so I think that saying that Greek civilization is Western civilization is problematic from the historical point of view. It may be safe to say that Western civilization is a Greek civilization, or rather Western civilization is an imitation of Greek civilization. Just because ancient Greeks and their civilization influenced Western Europeans doesn't mean that ancient Greeks were Westerners.

We can safely claim that the Eastern Roman empire was as western as the Ottoman Empire on the basis of the fact that none of them were a product of Western Europe.
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Posts: 1943 		  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2007 at 13:05
I agree with most of what you're saying, Omar al Hashim, but there are however a few problems with grouping the Greeks together with the Egyptians, Syrians and Arabs.
 
First, if we are to claim the ERE was as western as the Ottoman Empire, we must disregard the fact that the ERE was primarily the heir of a Graeco-Roman cultural tradition which sprang from Greece and Italy, whereas the Ottoman Empire was primarily the heir of an oriental tradition of empire inherited from the Caliphates. Of course it could be argued the Caliphates themselves were heirs of the Graeco-Roman tradition as well, but I would say this is mostly true for the Ummajads and less so for the later Abassids, who ruled more in extension of Persian than Roman traditions.
 
Second, it is problematic to group the Greeks, modern and ancient, with Arabs, Syrians and Egyptians based on similarities in architecture derived from a shared Graeco-Roman heritage. These were influences which in ancient times went -from- Greece to f.ex. Arab lands, not vice versa, and whereas Greek influence would make the Arabs "more Greek" if you will, the Greeks would not become "more Arab" by influencing them.
 
Further, architecture is but one aspect among many, and religion has perhaps the strongest impact of them all. You need go no further than the Greek-Turkish border to find the dividing line between a culture which has developed in extension of Christian traditions and one which has developed (until recently at least) in extension of Islamic traditions, with all the cultural baggage this brings with it. Sure, it is unproblematic to argue that all the lands in the eastern Mediterranean share some traits, but to group the Greeks with Syrians and Arabs rather than the Italians and Slavs needs a stronger case.
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2007 at 01:47
Western vs Eastern is little more than us vs them, so people will always be shifting the boundries to suit which ever claim they wish. It isn't cut and dry at all.
I'm saying the original East vs West, was the Western Roman Empire, vs the Eastern Roman Empire. So regarding the Eastern Empire and western is not something that should be done. The eastern roman empire is as western as the Ottoman Empire.

What we should be talking about it cultural groups, rather than east & west abstractions. Culturally, Greeks, Egyptians, Syrians and Arabs are in the same group (doubly so in modern times), so Arab architecture naturally is very similar to these groups. This is Roman influence, because Greeks, Egyptians and Syrians were Romans, but Roman is not a synonum for western. Arabs were not influenced by Germanic and Celtic architecture (ignoring Spain)
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Posts: 253 		  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 20:43
Originally posted by arch.buff

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

For your claims of western/eastern....whos to say?? Would you classify Byzantine as western or eastrern?? As it did differ from classical Roman. Would you classify classical Greek as eastern or western??

Seeing as it was the Eastern Roman Empire that was the original East. I don't think it is in anyway far to regard the Eastern empire as Western.

East vs West = Eastern Roman Empire vs Western Roman Empire originally.

And of course, the Persians Egyptians and Greeks are certainly not western.
 
It may appear very cut and dry to you, this labeling but it certainly isnt for many. Greeks obviously not being western?? I know many would pause at that statement.
 
And if the Romans were so western why did the take so much from the "eastern" greeks? You see there isnt always such a cut and dry line between the two, for instance the Eastern Roman Empire under Constantine would probably seem very "western", but that same culture under Constantine X appeared to western Europe as the "oriental eastern". Label them if you wish but to me the line becomes a little foggy depending on the view 
 
I agree on this. Greece is considered the start of the Western Civilization. Much of the culture was homegrown, Black and White scholars debate this, this is whay Greek Civilization is so controversial, which then would influence Rome and the rest of the world. Greece after all is considered part of Europe and if you start learning Western Civilization you start with Greece.
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Posts: 606 		  Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 16:59
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

For your claims of western/eastern....whos to say?? Would you classify Byzantine as western or eastrern?? As it did differ from classical Roman. Would you classify classical Greek as eastern or western??

Seeing as it was the Eastern Roman Empire that was the original East. I don't think it is in anyway far to regard the Eastern empire as Western.

East vs West = Eastern Roman Empire vs Western Roman Empire originally.

And of course, the Persians Egyptians and Greeks are certainly not western.
 
It may appear very cut and dry to you, this labeling but it certainly isnt for many. Greeks obviously not being western?? I know many would pause at that statement.
 
And if the Romans were so western why did the take so much from the "eastern" greeks? You see there isnt always such a cut and dry line between the two, for instance the Eastern Roman Empire under Constantine would probably seem very "western", but that same culture under Constantine X appeared to western Europe as the "oriental eastern". Label them if you wish but to me the line becomes a little foggy depending on the view 
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Posts: 1379 		  Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 12:30
Exactly Omar. It's the Middle Eastern Roman empire.
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 12:07
For your claims of western/eastern....whos to say?? Would you classify Byzantine as western or eastrern?? As it did differ from classical Roman. Would you classify classical Greek as eastern or western??

Seeing as it was the Eastern Roman Empire that was the original East. I don't think it is in anyway far to regard the Eastern empire as Western.

East vs West = Eastern Roman Empire vs Western Roman Empire originally.

And of course, the Persians Egyptians and Greeks are certainly not western.
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Posts: 606 		  Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2007 at 23:11
Originally posted by andrew

Originally posted by arch.buff

Originally posted by Temujin

sow aht? Islamic architecture spreads from Spain to Indonesia and from Africa to Russian Tatarstan province and Chinese Xinjiang province, how far did Hellenism spread?
 
Sorry but I must clear some things up here with this naive post. At its roots Islamic architecture is based on Persian and Roman, largely Roman(Byzantine). In turn, Romans themselves were very largely influenced by Hellenestic architecture. Of course this is not to say that Islamic architecture didnt develop into its own. I very muchly like Islamic architecture as it is very artistic but we musnt get ahead of ourselves and forget where the influence of certain peoples and cultures come from.
 
Not necceraily true arch.buff. The reason Islamic architecture seams to look like Byzantine architecture is because when we think of Islamic civilization in the western world we think of the Ottoman/Seljuk Turks. Arabs were great fertilizers of other people's culture. They developed styles of Persian, Egyptian, and Greek building techniques.
 
You're right Islamic archtecture was just a modifyed form of Middle East architecture but you make it seem it was Western and it is definitely not it was very Eastern.
 
 
Hello andrew, I am sorry if my post seems simple, as it does after re-reading it. Maybe I should clear some things up. The reason Islamic architecture looks like Byzantine architecture is because it was heavly influenced by it, I dont understand the arguement with this. Just type it in google and you will find an abundant amount of sources. And you are absolutely right as far as Arabs fertilizing other cultures such as the ones you listed, Persian, Greek, and Egyptian. As Islamic architecture aslo borrowed from these cultures as well. One needs only to observe my favorite mosque, The Dome of the Rock, one of the earliest mosques, to see the great influence of Roman(Byzantine) architecture. For your claims of western/eastern....whos to say?? Would you classify Byzantine as western or eastrern?? As it did differ from classical Roman. Would you classify classical Greek as eastern or western?? After all they were influenced by Pharaonic architecture. Its all relative, but I would agree we have a rough classification but the lines become a lil blurred when we look into the history of a subject such as colorful as architecture.
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2007 at 17:11
It was a fusion as befits the region it arose in.
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Posts: 253 		  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2007 at 23:59
Originally posted by arch.buff

Originally posted by Temujin

sow aht? Islamic architecture spreads from Spain to Indonesia and from Africa to Russian Tatarstan province and Chinese Xinjiang province, how far did Hellenism spread?
 
Sorry but I must clear some things up here with this naive post. At its roots Islamic architecture is based on Persian and Roman, largely Roman(Byzantine). In turn, Romans themselves were very largely influenced by Hellenestic architecture. Of course this is not to say that Islamic architecture didnt develop into its own. I very muchly like Islamic architecture as it is very artistic but we musnt get ahead of ourselves and forget where the influence of certain peoples and cultures come from.
 
Not necceraily true arch.buff. The reason Islamic architecture seams to look like Byzantine architecture is because when we think of Islamic civilization in the western world we think of the Ottoman/Seljuk Turks. Arabs were great fertilizers of other people's culture. They developed styles of Persian, Egyptian, and Greek building techniques.
 
You're right Islamic archtecture was just a modifyed form of Middle East architecture but you make it seem it was Western and it is definitely not it was very Eastern.
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Posts: 606 		  Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2007 at 19:32
Originally posted by Temujin

sow aht? Islamic architecture spreads from Spain to Indonesia and from Africa to Russian Tatarstan province and Chinese Xinjiang province, how far did Hellenism spread?
 
Sorry but I must clear some things up here with this naive post. At its roots Islamic architecture is based on Persian and Roman, largely Roman(Byzantine). In turn, Romans themselves were very largely influenced by Hellenestic architecture. Of course this is not to say that Islamic architecture didnt develop into its own. I very muchly like Islamic architecture as it is very artistic but we musnt get ahead of ourselves and forget where the influence of certain peoples and cultures come from.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 14:38
Trying to revive the PCME forum needs work!
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Posts: 2979 		  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 13:30
lol  this thread started in Dec 2004, one of my first posts on this forum was here. how nice,Big%20smile
 
anyway i'll replay later when i have more time to search and double check what i wrote.
 
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2007 at 05:29
Okay lets get this thing straight. Pakistan was never ever called India. No one here called the place "India". Sindh is in Pakistan.
 
The Arabs went as far as Lahore, but the lost the Punjab pretty quickly, the Jehlum remained a sort of boundry for centuries. It was in 1200 when the Khiljis and the rest went into what is now Bahrat the republic of India.
 
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Posts: 2979 		  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2005 at 11:44

Originally posted by HulaguHan

Take a look at this map, this has nothing conquered in Chinese and Indian territory..

well when i said India i didnt mean all Indian contenet, the most eastern part was called india too Pakistan was called india

and the northeastern part of that map was the Borderes of the Chinese Empire and Arabs Crossed it

when they say Alexander reached india they mean the area which is now Pakistan

Arabs went more north than Alexander's Army

the Macedonian Empire map

 
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Posts: 370 		  Quote HulaguHan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 21:06

This is the conwuest of India:

Mughals you know them, we Call them Babur Empire:
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Posts: 370 		  Quote HulaguHan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 21:04

You did a good job Azimuth, very succesful start; however, could not keep it for the long term. Alexanders Empire was far more fragile than yours, do not worry, today world is Crusader oriented. I do not believe in western-eastern civilization. But most believes. I believe there is always one civilization and it can be anywhere in the world. They try to think a world which does not include, Chinese, Turks, Russians, Arabs, Persians, etc... We can not compare Arabic Empire and Hellenic Empire. Arabic Empire had better state organization. Alexanders Empire shattered after his death.

For the battle of Talas, celebrate it, it is your right, since you are one part of the alliance., but do not forget Karluks.

If we were not there result might be different.

People forget them. Always forget them.

Invading China is not a good thing, look at us, we invaded there, but they assimilated us. Yuan Dynasty.

However Timurlenk prepared an attack to china, to make them Muslim. I am sure he could do that but he prefered to fight against his brothers...



Edited by HulaguHan
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