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Pakistan and ancient Persian empires

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  Quote Kashmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pakistan and ancient Persian empires
    Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 16:58
Originally posted by northpakistani

QUOTE:  Language/linguistics:

About 99% of languages spoken in Pakistan are Indo-Iranian (sub-branches: 75% Indo-Aryan and 24% Iranian), a branch of Indo-European family of languages. All languages of Pakistan are written in the Perso-Arabic script, with significant vocabulary derived from Arabic and Persian. Punjabi, Seraiki, Sindhi, Pashto, Urdu, Balochi, Kashmiri, etc. are the languages spoken in Pakistan.

About 69% of languages spoken in India are Indo-Iranian (sub-branch: Indo-Aryan), 26% are Dravidian, and 5% are Sino-Tibetan and Austro-Asiatic, all unrelated/distinct family of languages. Most languages in India are written in Brahmi- derived scripts such as Devangari, Gurmukhi, Tamil, etc. Hindi, Bengali, Gujarati, Marathi, Telugu, Tamil, Malayalam, Assamese, Punjabi, Naga, and many others are the mother-tongue languages spoken in each of India's states.

As you can see both countries have distinct linguistic identities. Even in the case of Punjabi, while it is the mother-tongue of a majority in Pakistan, it represents the mother-tongue of only 2% Indians. Besides, Pakistani Punjabi (Western Punjabi) is distinct in its vocabulary/dialect and writing script when compared to Indian Punjabi (Eastern Punjabi). Another thing to keep in mind is that Indian Punjabi is mostly spoken by Sikhs who consider themselves distinct from the rest of Indians and had been fighting for independence. In the case of Urdu/Hindi, while Hindi is the mother- tongue of a majority in India, Urdu is the mother-tongue of only 8% Pakistanis. Besides, they both are distinct languages, Urdu has a writing script and strong vocabulary derived from Arabic and Persian, whereas Hindi has strong vocabulary derived from Sanskrit and is written in Devangari script. Most Pakistanis can understand English and watch American/Brit movies but that does not make them  British/American, same is the case with Hindi.


Race/genetics:

About 70% of Pakistanis are Caucasoid by race, 20% Australoid- Negroid, and 10% Mongoloid in their overall genetic composition. Majority of Pakistanis are tall with fair skin complexion, similar to Middle Eastern and Mediterranean peoples. While the racial features of each ethnic group are not uniform, Pashtuns are the most Caucasoid, followed by Kashmiris, Baluchis, north Punjabis, and then Sindhis, Seraikis, Urdu-speakers, etc. The Australoid-Negroid and Mongoloid racial elements are quite infused within the dominant Caucasoid genes among Pakistanis, however there are some that have retained their distinct racial characteristics.

About 50% of Indians are Australoid-Negroid by race, 35% Caucasoid, and 15% Mongoloid in their overall genetic composition. Majority of Indians are darker in their skin complexion, with wider noses, shorter heights, etc. The Australoid-Dravidoid racial element dominates among the lower caste Indians, South Indians, Eastern and Central Indians, etc. The Caucasoid racial element dominates in Northwest Indians and higher caste Indians. The Mongoloid racial element dominates in Northeast Indians and border regions with China.

Obviously, both countries have distinct racial identities. A common international perception based on observance of physical features is that most Pakistanis are lighter skinned than most Indians. Most Pakistanis resemble the looks of peoples inhabiting on its western borders and beyond. Indeed, many Pakistanis also resemble many Northwest Indians or higher caste Indians, but those are a minority in India. Similarly, a few people of Pakistan resemble peoples of South India, lower caste Indians, Northeast India, etc. but they are a minority in Pakistan. And besides, let's say, if some Saudis look similar to the French that does not make them one people, same applies here between Indians and Pakistanis. UNQUOTE.

 
 
everything you have posted is bull crap as it is posted by some pakistani who obviously hates indians. seriously guys like you shouldn't even allowed on this forum who are so biased. i am not saying punjabis have exactly the same genitics as todays north indians but, punjabis and north indians are closer to each other genetically then lets say punjabis and pathans. and punjabis represent about 60% of pakistan.
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  Quote Kashmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 17:18

i also degree with the statments that you claim that majority of pakistanis are fair skinned similar to middle eastern and mediterranean. This is false, i have seen a lot and i mean alot of punjabis that are darkskinned as indians, also majority of sindhis are also dark skinned, also many many balochis are darkskinned. The only majority fair skinned people in pakistan are pathans and they only represent 10% of the total pakistan population.

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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 17:55
Originally posted by Kashmiri

 
everything you have posted is bull crap as it is posted by some pakistani who obviously hates indians. seriously guys like you shouldn't even allowed on this forum who are so biased. i am not saying punjabis have exactly the same genitics as todays north indians but, punjabis and north indians are closer to each other genetically then lets say punjabis and pathans. and punjabis represent about 60% of pakistan.
 
What you're saying is not correct. It's not even similar to North India. Punjabis have similar Y-genetics to some Northwestern Indian groups like Punjabis, perhaps a bit with Rajasthanis, but that is as far as it goes.
 
If you're looking at it genetically, Pashtun Y-genetics is more similar to Punjabi Y-genetics than Punjabi Y is to North Indian. You can check any genetic review on the large amounts of Hg3 in Pashtun and Punjabi populations, and the lesser amounts in places like Orissa which are dominated by Haplogroup K*. 
 
Punjabi population is officially 44% of Pakistan according to the national language authority (government figures), looks like you've included Siraiki and other languages spoken in Punjab.
 
 
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 18:16
Originally posted by Kashmiri

i also degree with the statments that you claim that majority of pakistanis are fair skinned similar to middle eastern and mediterranean. This is false, i have seen a lot and i mean alot of punjabis that are darkskinned as indians, also majority of sindhis are also dark skinned, also many many balochis are darkskinned. The only majority fair skinned people in pakistan are pathans and they only represent 10% of the total pakistan population.

 
Pathans represent 15% of the population according to the Pakistani government, and there are other groups, namely those from the Northern Areas and even North Punjab who don't look too far off the Pathans. I havent read everything he's written, but he's not wrong to say that Punjabis do look more like Middle Easterners than Indians in skin colour (you'll have to remember this is a pointless comparison anyway, since this is all based on the amount of UV a person sees rather than any sort of ethnic basis). In cities like Karachi, there are large numbers of Indian immigrants as well as some other cities, but generally if you look outside of the Punjabi and Sindhi cities, these are what the ancestral Pakistanis look like. You can see the skin colour of Punjab circled in the following map (it's not accurate but on a broad scale it would be I assume), which is roughly equal to quite a few Middle Eastern countries, more so than India, so what he's saying does have some truth.
 


Edited by TeldeInduz - 05-Apr-2007 at 18:18
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  Quote northpakistani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 22:20
 The Australoid-Negroid and Mongoloid racial elements are quite infused within the dominant Caucasoid genes among Pakistanis---this mixture is what produces the dark skinned pakistanis, mainly in heavily populated southern cities like Karachi. The alleles of punjabi's and tribes in the north, tend to breed within their own population, causing them to maintain their own physical attributes which is quite distinguishable from those who have been infused.
A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be.

-- Albert Einstein
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 22:33
Originally posted by northpakistani

 The Australoid-Negroid and Mongoloid racial elements are quite infused within the dominant Caucasoid genes among Pakistanis---this mixture is what produces the dark skinned pakistanis, mainly in heavily populated southern cities like Karachi. The alleles of punjabi's and tribes in the north, tend to breed within their own population, causing them to maintain their own physical attributes which is quite distinguishable from those who have been infused.
 
where did that come from? LOL Mongoloids arent dark, and Mongoloids generally only exist in the West of Pakistan, not Karachi, how are any of the groups in Pakistan Australoid except the Makranis? The dark colour of Pakistanis comes from the climate in the South, not from any ethnic basis. Whilst it's true the majority of people in Sindh, Punjab, the North etc are their own ethnic group, they all have mixing, there's nothing special about Punjabi or Northern groups breeding habits that differ markedly from everyone elses. dont know about alleles breeding with each other either
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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  Quote northpakistani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 22:55

The Punjabis of India certainly did have a genetic drift in Pakistan, the Pashtuns also have a large gene pool in this area since Rawalpindi, Islamabad and Peshawar are neighbours.

Many Afghans have settled in Bolochistan and Punjab for decades and integrated within the society.
 
 
A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be.

-- Albert Einstein
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  Quote northpakistani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 23:03

That is a quote from the article. Mongoloids themselves aren't dark but their mixed with dravidians and some parts of our populations.

A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be.

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  Quote Kashmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 01:31
i disagree with the thought climate effecting the skin colour. if this was true how come it doesn't effect all people, why are some people so fairskinned living in the same area while others are so dark?
 
if this was true, surely the white people who have  lived in south africa or austaralia for the last 400-500 years would have been dark, but their not.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 05:07
Makranis are African IIRC that would make them Negroid.
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 05:36
if this was true, surely the white people who have  lived in south africa or austaralia for the last 400-500 years would have been dark, but their not.

White Australians aren't necessarily whiter than Pakistanis. Its very difficult to generalise of course, but white Australians are alot darker than their European ancestors.
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 06:43
Originally posted by northpakistani

The Punjabis of India certainly did have a genetic drift in Pakistan, the Pashtuns also have a large gene pool in this area since Rawalpindi, Islamabad and Peshawar are neighbours.

 
lol, no, it's not what genetic drift is. Peshawar I think isnt really a good example, it's fairly mixed with all the immigrants that have gone there over the the course of centuries. 
 
 
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 06:47
Originally posted by Kashmiri

i disagree with the thought climate effecting the skin colour. if this was true how come it doesn't effect all people, why are some people so fairskinned living in the same area while others are so dark?
 
Ermm, immigration into the region? People move around you know.
 
if this was true, surely the white people who have  lived in south africa or austaralia for the last 400-500 years would have been dark, but their not.
 
 
To spread colouration into the population on a permanent basis is going to take a lot longer than 500 years, or 20-25 generations about Exclamation 
 
 


Edited by TeldeInduz - 06-Apr-2007 at 06:49
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  Quote M. Nachiappan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 08:51
There are no dark skinned people in Pakistan?
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 09:00
Originally posted by M. Nachiappan

There are no dark skinned people in Pakistan?
 
where did this come from? LOL 
 
 
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  Quote M. Nachiappan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 09:18
If "indegenous people" / "sons of soil" etc., are to be believed, thety must have been some people.
 
Moreover, if AIT is believed, they must have been "Dravidians" in Pakistan also!
 
Then, the "Pakistani Dravidians" are black or white / dolicocephalic or brachy or meso / colour would be black or blue, height tall or short etc.
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 09:22
lol this has to be the best subsection of the forum LOL 
 
 
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  Quote M. Nachiappan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 09:28
Whether you like it or not, believe it or not, the "Dravidian" protagonists would continue to ask such questions.
 
Perpaps, no such ideologist has become a member of AE!
 
Then, you would have chance to deal with him!!
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  Quote northpakistani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2007 at 18:18
? Wacko


Edited by northpakistani - 06-Apr-2007 at 18:26
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  Quote MarcoPolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2007 at 20:16

Despite being one of the richest satraps of the Persian empire, much of Pakistan's history with Ancient Persia has largely been ignored or brushed aside despite the fact that Persia & Persian culture probably excerted the greatest and longest lasting influence on Pakistan as a whole versus any other culture. (eg. British, Central Asian, Mogul, afghan, indian/south asian).  If taken as a whole, this influence and interaction with Persia has allowed Pakistan to become what it is today.

Even to this day, one can find Persian wheels, irrigation devices, tablets/edicts all throughout the country, conversely, many artifacts from the trans indus region and even statues depicting persian subjects of Pakistani origin(Balochi, Pashtun, Panjabi) are visible in Iran today.  Many scientists and Mystics that settled Pakistan where Persian in origin. Considerable Persian migration also took place with many shopkeepers and tradesmen families claiming Persian decent/lineages.  Much of Pakistan's nobility and leading families are Persian in origin.  Conversely, many people from the region of Pakistan migrated to Persia proper near the region of Fars and even as far north as the Caspian during the times of the Persian empire.  Pakistani fought alongside Persians in Persia's numerous expeditions in the west particularly against Greece.  The two countries shared direct land to land contact and much communication occured via their proximity to one another.  Rather than being at odds with one another, the two joined together in a synergistic approach, a process which helped enrich them to their mutual benefit.
 
It was due to the inclusion of Pakistan's province in Persian maps, that Alexander came this far and conquered the region being that Pakistan(more specifically, Sagala in North eastern Pakistani Panjab) was the eastern most outpost of the Greek Empire stretching down to Bhambore near modern day Karachi.  Trade between East and west mushroomed.
 
I think much more appreciation and discussion of Pakistan's Persian legacy needs to be undertaken in order to have a better understanding of the regions history and Pakistan's uniqueness in the region.  Infact, I think failure to appreciate Pakistan's Persian past will prevent many from understanding the country and its history in a correct manner as the  Persian period was one of the most stable, peaceful and dynamic periods the region had ever seen.  To not factor this important period will result in a distorted view of the country.  Also, Persian historians are at a considerable loss without factoring in the history and legacy of these important, vital and strategic Eastern Persian lands (i.e. Pakistan) and as such, no complete understanding and clear picture of the once mighty and still very much influential Persian empire will be made possible until Pakistani's, Persians (and Iranians) and Historians alike allocate funds and undertake greater research into Pakistan's Persian past.
 
Thorough research into this important aspect of Pakistan's past will surely reveal many good finds from an archealogical as well as historical point of view and allow Pakistani's and Persian's alike to learn more about their common past.


Edited by MarcoPolo - 27-Nov-2007 at 20:19
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