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Pakistan and ancient Persian empires

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K. V. Ramakrishna Rao View Drop Down
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  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pakistan and ancient Persian empires
    Posted: 03-Apr-2007 at 20:21
Even the "Alexander" film depict such scene vividly and it has been based on such "Porus medal".
 
You can easily match the two portrayal.s
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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  Quote Kashmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2007 at 21:01
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

Originally posted by Kashmiri

dude i am talking about race wise not cultural or religious wise, punjabis are more indian then they are persian. i am from kashmir and i even dont deny that atleast half of my genes are indians, rest could a mixed bag from persia or central asia same could go for punjabis. The punjab region has been part of india through out the ages rather then persia, only western half of pakistan could be considered more persian then indian.
 
where do you get the figure half your genes are Indian from? Punjab region has not been part of Northeast, Central or South India throughout the ages (a bit central India, but because Punjab was under the same ruler as Uttar Pradesh, this didn't suddenly change their genes so that someone from Uttar Pradesh is genetically similar to someone from Punjab). what Persian influence is there in the Western half of Pakistan?
 
 
 
 
 
people of punjab are not racially very different of people of north india, thats all i am saying. by your logic even north indians shouldn't be indians. because they are also a mixed with other races to some degree.
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2007 at 21:42
Originally posted by Kashmiri

  
people of punjab are not racially very different of people of north india, thats all i am saying. by your logic even north indians shouldn't be indians. because they are also a mixed with other races to some degree.
 
alright..so a Punjabi (presumably in Pakistan) is not racially/ethnically different to a Bengali in Calcultta (which is in North India)? I would say you could take an Indian from Uttar Pradesh (Northwest/central India) even and have a good chance to guess who was the Punjabi and who was the UPite
 
I dont understand the second part. But India, even/especially North India is not racially/culturally the same..there's plenty of different ethnic groups, all Indian though.
 
 
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  Quote Kashmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2007 at 23:16
i know every race is in the indian subcontinent is somewhat different that is what i am not arguing about, but i am arguing about is that a punjab is more indian then persian, and i am not saying indian in the sense of todays india, i am saying as an indiansubcontenent. I simply dont understand how some of you guys can say punjab is more persian then india and hindus had nothing to do with it.
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 05:41
Originally posted by Kashmiri

i know every race is in the indian subcontinent is somewhat different that is what i am not arguing about, but i am arguing about is that a punjab is more indian then persian, and i am not saying indian in the sense of todays india, i am saying as an indiansubcontenent. I simply dont understand how some of you guys can say punjab is more persian then india and hindus had nothing to do with it.
 
alrightie, that's cleared that up then.
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 08:06
Well with the Punjab, I think the Potohar and West Punkab are more inclined to the Western neighbours then India.
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  Quote Kashmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 20:06
the pathans in pakistan are closer to persians
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 21:35
Originally posted by Kashmiri

the pathans in pakistan are closer to persians
 
the evidence for this new revelation is? your obsessed with persians..look, pathans are just pathans..unique culture, ethnic group etc. pathans you could say are are mixed in with a bit of Punjabi, a bit of Persian, a bit of wherever, Sindhi, Balochi, but Pathans have their own culture and identity, and even genetics (with a bit of influence from the surrounding regions - but generally its own).
 
 
 
 


Edited by TeldeInduz - 04-Apr-2007 at 21:42
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  Quote Kashmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 01:59

i am basing every thing on culture and language wise, punjabi culture and language is more indianized and pathan culture and language is more centeral asian and persian then indian.

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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 07:40
Originally posted by Kashmiri

i am basing every thing on culture and language wise, punjabi culture and language is more indianized and pathan culture and language is more centeral asian and persian then indian.

 
How is Pathan culture more Persian than Punjabi culture? List about 5-10 ways.
 
How is Punjabi culture more "Indianized" than Pathan culture? You do known that India is bigger than Delhi and East Punjabi past Hayana, don't you?
 
How is the Pashto language more Persian than the Punjabi language (which is similar to Urdu believed to be derived from Persian Armies)?
 
"If more than 60% of the words are common in Punjabi and Urdu (Shriram 1928:67) it is due to the influence of Persian."
 
If anything Pashto is a very distinct language to any other language in the world, the only similar ones being the Pamir group. It's thought the Eastern Iranic languages (Pashto, Ossetian etc) split from the others in the group about 4 or 5,000 years ago, yet, as the above article believes, Urdu was created around 1,000 years ago in fact from the Persian camps of Mahmud of Ghaznavi. If you're looking for closely related languages, it wouldnt be Pashto with a 4,000 year distinct evolution of its own.
 
Here's a couple of language similarities between Punjabi and Persian though..
  • Shahmukhi is the Punjabi script for writing, and it's based on the Nastaliq style of the Persian script. Pashto is written in an Perso-Arabic script (though it contains some unique characters).  
  • Punjabi (and Urdu) contains more loanwords from Persian than Pashto
If anything Pashto is more influenced by Sanskrit than Persian, though some loanwords do come from there (but not as many as Urdu for example).
 
 
 
 


Edited by TeldeInduz - 05-Apr-2007 at 07:59
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  Quote Kashmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 10:43
i dont think you have the slighest idea what ur talking about. Pashto is a eastern iranian language and is clearly related to persian.
 
while punjabi is from the indo indic branch which includes most of the languages spoken in north india see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indic_languages
 
Both punjabi and urdu are languages from the indian subcontinent just because we some words from persian and arabic doesn't change the fact that our grammer is indic and pushto belongs to the languages spoken in central asia and iran.
 
as for the culture yes i know there is a huge difference between south and north india and yes punjab is related to north india but it is still india i dont see your point about that. Pathans have their cultural realations to central asian countries including afghanistan,uzbekistan, tajiks and clearly they little todo with the indian subcontinent. 
 
 


Edited by Kashmiri - 05-Apr-2007 at 10:54
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 11:15
Originally posted by Kashmiri

i dont think you have the slighest idea what ur talking about. Pashto is a eastern iranian language and is clearly related to persian.
 
How is Pashto language closely related to the Persian language, when Pashto forms one of the Eastern Iranic languages, and Persian one of the Western Iranic languages? You do realized that these time splits between these two groups is thousands of years, do you not?
 
while punjabi is from the indo indic branch which includes most of the languages spoken in north india see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indic_languages
 
Punjabi is from the Indic branch of languages but it has a significant number of loan words from Persian, more so than Pashto. Incidentally, wikipedia is a very poor source to be quoting, but even this website (which is more biased towards the Afghani viewpoint) suggests strong Sanskrit influence on the Pashto language.
 
"Written in a modified Perso-Arabic alphabet, Pashto shows strong Sanskrit influence, some Arabic and Persian loanwords, and numerous archaic Sanskrit features."
 
You tell me how Pashto is more closely related to Persian than Punjabi/Urdu, when it was Persians that created the Punjabi/Urdu language (not Indians). Punjabi language is a fusion of Indian and Persian languages afaik, Pashto is not - it is an archaic language derived heavily from Sanskrit, but classified as an Iranic language.
 
Sanskrit
 
Both punjabi and urdu are languages from the indian subcontinent just because we some words from persian and arabic doesn't change the fact that our grammer is indic and pushto belongs to the languages spoken in central asia and iran.
 
It's not just some loanwords "you" use, it's nearly half the vocabulary! Pashto shares more similarity with Pamir/Ossetian than it does Persian, so what does that prove? Not a lot..
 
as for the culture yes i know there is a huge difference between south and north india and yes punjab is related to north india but it is still india i dont see your point about that. Pathans have their cultural realations to central asian countries including afghanistan,uzbekistan, tajiks and clearly they little todo with the indian subcontinent. 
 
1) Where does North and South India come into this?
 
2) How is a Punjabi in Pakistan related to a Bengali in North India?
 
3) How are Pathans culturally related to Uzbeks? Pathans have their own culture, it's not Punjabi, it's not Uzbek, It's not Tajik, and it's not Persian. I've already asked you to name some ways in which Pathan culture is more similar to Persian culture, and you haven't named me one way! Give me some answers, and you might convince people your point of view is perhaps right. Here are my questions for you again, in case you missed them..
 
4) How is Pathan culture more Persian than Punjabi culture? List about 5-10 ways.
 
5) How is Punjabi culture more "Indianized" than Pathan culture? You do known that India is bigger than Delhi and East Punjab past Haryana, don't you?
 
6) How is the Pashto language more Persian than the Punjabi language (which is similar to Urdu believed to be derived from Persian Armies)?

Let's stick to answering these questions before moving on, shall we?

 
 


Edited by TeldeInduz - 05-Apr-2007 at 11:21
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  Quote Kashmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 12:36
by persian i acutally meant iranic languages, not persian in a sense of persian today.
 
U simply dont understand what i am talking about, i am not saying pathans are exactly the same as central asian, but thier language and culture is very similar to them, same way punjabis are very similar to north indians, i know its not the same but similar. there is a difference between the word same and similar.
 
 
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 12:41
Pathans I think are of central asian origin, but many of the modern groups (for example Uzbeks) hardly are central asian in the same sense.
 
 
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  Quote northpakistani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 14:41
HERE'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN INDIANS AND PAKISTANIS.
 
 
Indian's are genetically different then us, check it out.
However due to the major herds of muhajirs (Indian migrants) in our country alot of interbreeding makes pakistani's to look quite similar to Indians...they are not pure paki, but paki-indians, you can see them alot in Karachi. Goto Islamabad (in Punjab) and you will see a major difference in culture, food and faces.
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  Quote northpakistani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 14:46

QUOTE:  Language/linguistics:

About 99% of languages spoken in Pakistan are Indo-Iranian (sub-branches: 75% Indo-Aryan and 24% Iranian), a branch of Indo-European family of languages. All languages of Pakistan are written in the Perso-Arabic script, with significant vocabulary derived from Arabic and Persian. Punjabi, Seraiki, Sindhi, Pashto, Urdu, Balochi, Kashmiri, etc. are the languages spoken in Pakistan.

About 69% of languages spoken in India are Indo-Iranian (sub-branch: Indo-Aryan), 26% are Dravidian, and 5% are Sino-Tibetan and Austro-Asiatic, all unrelated/distinct family of languages. Most languages in India are written in Brahmi- derived scripts such as Devangari, Gurmukhi, Tamil, etc. Hindi, Bengali, Gujarati, Marathi, Telugu, Tamil, Malayalam, Assamese, Punjabi, Naga, and many others are the mother-tongue languages spoken in each of India's states.

As you can see both countries have distinct linguistic identities. Even in the case of Punjabi, while it is the mother-tongue of a majority in Pakistan, it represents the mother-tongue of only 2% Indians. Besides, Pakistani Punjabi (Western Punjabi) is distinct in its vocabulary/dialect and writing script when compared to Indian Punjabi (Eastern Punjabi). Another thing to keep in mind is that Indian Punjabi is mostly spoken by Sikhs who consider themselves distinct from the rest of Indians and had been fighting for independence. In the case of Urdu/Hindi, while Hindi is the mother- tongue of a majority in India, Urdu is the mother-tongue of only 8% Pakistanis. Besides, they both are distinct languages, Urdu has a writing script and strong vocabulary derived from Arabic and Persian, whereas Hindi has strong vocabulary derived from Sanskrit and is written in Devangari script. Most Pakistanis can understand English and watch American/Brit movies but that does not make them  British/American, same is the case with Hindi.


Race/genetics:

About 70% of Pakistanis are Caucasoid by race, 20% Australoid- Negroid, and 10% Mongoloid in their overall genetic composition. Majority of Pakistanis are tall with fair skin complexion, similar to Middle Eastern and Mediterranean peoples. While the racial features of each ethnic group are not uniform, Pashtuns are the most Caucasoid, followed by Kashmiris, Baluchis, north Punjabis, and then Sindhis, Seraikis, Urdu-speakers, etc. The Australoid-Negroid and Mongoloid racial elements are quite infused within the dominant Caucasoid genes among Pakistanis, however there are some that have retained their distinct racial characteristics.

About 50% of Indians are Australoid-Negroid by race, 35% Caucasoid, and 15% Mongoloid in their overall genetic composition. Majority of Indians are darker in their skin complexion, with wider noses, shorter heights, etc. The Australoid-Dravidoid racial element dominates among the lower caste Indians, South Indians, Eastern and Central Indians, etc. The Caucasoid racial element dominates in Northwest Indians and higher caste Indians. The Mongoloid racial element dominates in Northeast Indians and border regions with China.

Obviously, both countries have distinct racial identities. A common international perception based on observance of physical features is that most Pakistanis are lighter skinned than most Indians. Most Pakistanis resemble the looks of peoples inhabiting on its western borders and beyond. Indeed, many Pakistanis also resemble many Northwest Indians or higher caste Indians, but those are a minority in India. Similarly, a few people of Pakistan resemble peoples of South India, lower caste Indians, Northeast India, etc. but they are a minority in Pakistan. And besides, let's say, if some Saudis look similar to the French that does not make them one people, same applies here between Indians and Pakistanis. UNQUOTE.

 
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  Quote northpakistani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 14:54
Some pathan groups have also been identified as ancient Jews. Certain words in pashtun are also found in Hebrew. But of course, there are so many other factors to consider, because the Pashtuns are quite mixed and complex to define.
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 15:58
The Jewish thing is also a red herring, at least that's what the genetics suggest. You can find lots of loan words, even English gets its own words in many places.
 
 
 
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  Quote northpakistani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 16:54

Well words spoken in some areas of Africa, match the dravidians, and not only that, but the Indian dravidians have a striking resemblance to the australoids too. This shows that language does stem from other ancient cultures. I wonder if Aramaic is a branch of Arabic or if Arabic was derived from that? Pashto may also have picked up a few words from languages that are now extinct.

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  Quote northpakistani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2007 at 16:56
Teldeinduz- are you pashtun?
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