Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Saxon and Scythian
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 7891011 45>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Saxon and Scythian
    Posted: 02-May-2008 at 08:13

This is a useless discussion because I know myself that I can't change your flase beliefs and bigotry toward Saxons,as a Germanic people!!! You have done nothing except denying my valid sources and evidences without showing a single source, contrary to them. All Anglo-Saxon historians mention a Scythian migration, do you know them better than themselves? You can at least say this Anglo-Saxon historian has not mentioned any Scythian migration.

"Ecclesiastical History of the English Nation" by Bede, the father of English History
"The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle", compiled on the orders of King Alfred the Great
"Historia Brittonum", by Nennius
"History of the Kings of Britain", by Geoffrey of Monmouth
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2008 at 08:33
If you are going to become a proffessional historian, you have to realize those are not credible sources. Try a modern scholar for a change. The Scythian origin of Monmouth et. al. is about as credible as them claiming Trojan and Israeli descent as well. It's only based on nonsensical name-similarities and propaganda purposes. Don't make the mistake of taking all the Glorious Past histories seriously - because no historian will take you seriously in return.

Edited by Styrbiorn - 02-May-2008 at 08:35
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2008 at 10:30
Bede and the AS Chronicle are fairly good sources for the later periods they deal with (i.e. where they knew what they were talking about).
 
However, the AS Chronicle certainly does not claim the Saxons were Scythians. These are the references to Scythians I can find in the Chronicle:
Pursuing fell
          the Scottish clans;
          the men of the fleet
          in numbers fell;
          'midst the din of the field
          the warrior swate.
          Since the sun was up
          in morning-tide,
          gigantic light!
          glad over grounds,
          God's candle bright,
          eternal Lord! --
          'till the noble creature
          sat in the western main:
          there lay many
          of the Northern heroes
          under a shower of arrows,
          shot over shields;
          and Scotland's boast,
          a Scythian race,
          the mighty seed of Mars!
 
That's from the part dealing with Athelstan's invasion of Scotland in the 930s which is fairly reliable. It's the Scots - the enemies of the Anglo-Saxons - that are said to claim they are Scythians. (That comes up in the source Northman quoted, as I already pointed out.)
The Chronicle tells a different story elsewhere.
The island Britain (1) is 800 miles long, and 200 miles broad.
And there are in the island five nations; English, Welsh (or British) (2), Scottish, Pictish, and Latin.  The first inhabitants were the Britons, who came from Armenia (3), and first peopled Britain southward.  Then happened it, that the Picts came south from Scythia, with long ships, not many; and, landing first in the northern part of Ireland, they told the Scots that they must dwell there.  But they would not give them leave; for the Scots told them that they could not all dwell there together; "But," said the Scots, "we can nevertheless give you advice.  We know another island here to the east.  There you may dwell, if you will; and whosoever withstandeth you, we will assist you, that you may gain it."
Here it is the Picts who descend from Scythians: but in this period we're talking myth not history.
 
Bede tells much the same story:
At first this island had no other inhabitants but the Britons, from whom it derived its name, and who, coming over into Britain, as is reported, from Armorica, possessed themselves of the southern parts thereof. When they, beginning at the south, had made themselves masters of the greatest part of the island, it happened, that the nation of the Picts, from Scythia, as is reported, putting to sea, in a few long ships, were driven by the winds beyond the shores of Britain".
 
Geoffrey of Monmouth repeats the story that the Picts came from Scythia:
His son Marius succeeded him in the kingdom, a man of marvellous prudence and wisdom. In his reign, after a time, came a certain King of the Picts, named Rodric, with a great fleet from Scythia and landed in the northern part of Britain which is called Albania, beginning to ravage the province. Assembling his people, Marius accordingly came to meet him, and after sundry battles obtained the victory. He then set up a stone in token of his triumph in that province which was afterward called Westimaria after his name, whereon is graven a writing that beareth witness unto his memory even unto this day. After that Rodric was slain, he gave unto the conquered people that had come with him that part of Albany which is called Caithness wherein to inhabit.
(Marius is supposed to be a son of Vespasian, left as governor of Britain.)
 
Nennius also states the Irish were Scythian, though because they all descended from one individual Scythian.
According to the most learned among the Scots, if any one desires to learn what I am now going to state, Ireland was a desert, and uninhabited, when the children of Israel crossed the Red Sea, in which, as we read in the Book of the Law, the Egyptians who followed them were drowned. At that period, there lived among this people, with a numerous family, a Scythian of noble birth, who had been banished from his country and did not go to pursue the people of God. The Egyptians who were left, seeing the destruction of the great men of their nation, and fearing lest he should possess himself of their territory, took counsel together, and expelled him. Thus reduced, he wandered forty-two years in Africa, and  arrived, with his family, at the altars of the Philistines, by the Lake of Osiers. Then passing between Rusicada and the hilly country of Syria, they travelled by the river Malva through Mauritania as far as the Pillars of Hercules; and crossing the Tyrrhene Sea, landed in Spain, where they continued many years, having greatly increased and multiplied. Thence, a thousand and two years after the Egyptians were lost in the Red Sea, they passed into Ireland, and the district of Dalrieta.
At that period, Brutus, who first exercised the consular office, reigned over the Romans; and the state, which before was governed by regal power, was afterwards ruled, during four hundred and forty-seven years, by consuls, tribunes of the people, and dictators
The Britons came to Britain in the third age of the world; and in the fourth, the Scots took possession of Ireland.
You may or may not find that credible. The point though is that now it is the Irish (and therefore the Sots) that are descended from Nennius. Not the Saxons. 
 
Nennius contradicts himself though in the only other reference to Scythia:
But Hengist, in whom united craft and penetration, perceiving he had to act with an ignorant king, and a fluctuating people, incapable of opposing much resistance, replied to Vortigern, "We are, indeed, few in number; but, if you will give us leave, we will send to our country for an additional number of forces, with whom we will fight for you and your subjects." Vortigern assenting to this proposal, messengers were despatched to Scythia, where selecting a number of warlike troops, they returned with sixteen vessels, bringing with them the beautiful daughter of Hengist.
So all of the links Cyrus give connects the Irish (and their descendant Scots) or the Picts to Scythia or the Scythians. The Irish and the Picts, whatever they may be, are definitely not Saxons.
 
We're left with Nennius' one-off suggestion that the probably mythical Hengist sent to Scythia for reinforcements, and the hint that the Picts came south from Scythia to Ireland. Neither of these suggest - even if one accepts them as true - that what is being referred to is classical Scythia: the implication is that 'Scythia' at the time was used to refer to Scandinavia.
 
PS. To assess the credibility of Nennius here, this is how the Saxons et al descended from Adam:
The first man that dwelt in Europe was Alanus, with his three sons, Hisicion, Armenon, and Neugio. Hisicion had four sons, Francus, Romanus, Alamanus, and Brutus. Armenon had five sons, Gothus, Valagothus, Cibidus, Burgundus, and Longobardus. Neugio had three sons, Vandalus, Saxo, and Boganus. From Hisicion arose four nations--the Franks, the Latins, the Germans, and Britons: from Armenon, the Gothi, Balagothi, Cibidi, Burgundi, and  Longobardi: from Neugio, the Bogari, Vandali, Saxones, and Tarinegi. The whole of Europe was subdivided into these tribes.

Alanus is said to have been the son of Fethuir; Fethuir, the son of Ogomuin, who was the son of Thoi; Thoi was the son of Boibus, Boibus of Semion, Semion of Mair, Mair of Ecthactus, Ecthactus of Aurthack, Aurthack of Ethec, Ethec of Ooth, Ooth of Aber, Aber of Ra, Ra of Esraa, Esraa of Hisrau, Hisrau of Bath, Bath of Jobath, Jobath of Joham, Joham
of Japheth, Japheth of Noah, Noah of Lamech, Lamech of Mathusalem, Mathusalem of Enoch, Enoch of Jared, Jared of Malalehel, Malalehel of Cainan, Cainan of Enos, Enos of Seth, Seth of Adam, and Adam was formed by the living God. We have obtained this information respecting the original inhabitants of Britain from ancient tradition.
 
Back to Top
beorna View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 03-Dec-2007
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 925 		  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2008 at 10:47
Useless is always your term if we show you that you're wrong. We don't deny that there are sources that mentioned a skythian origin, but this is fiction. Elsewhere I have to guess that you believe in the Bible too, when it's said it took 7 days to build it, that Adam was the first men and that all people are descendants of him. By this way I would wish you can explain me where Kain and Abel got their wifes from! You must also believe, that the Merovingians are descendants of a sea beast, it is in the sources. Do you believe this, too? A historian usually should be able to decide what is fact and what is fiction. You can't, as far as I can see. But don't give up!
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2008 at 14:55
Originally posted by gcle2003

 
Nennius contradicts himself though in the only other reference to Scythia:
[QUOTE]
But Hengist, in whom united craft and penetration, perceiving he had to act with an ignorant king, and a fluctuating people, incapable of opposing much resistance, replied to Vortigern, "We are, indeed, few in number; but, if you will give us leave, we will send to our country for an additional number of forces, with whom we will fight for you and your subjects." Vortigern assenting to this proposal, messengers were despatched to Scythia, where selecting a number of warlike troops, they returned with sixteen vessels, bringing with them the beautiful daughter of Hengist.
On checking, the term 'Scythia' does not appear in the Latin text which merely says that the messengers were sent 'trans tithicam uallem'.
I don't find any variant of 'tithicam' (fem acc to match 'uallem', a valley) in Lewis and Short, so it looks like a proper name. It sounds as though the translator just made a wild guess.
and googling on 'tithicam' produces some interesting comments.
 
So the 'one-off suggestion' that Hengist's people came from Scythia is a latter-day interpolation anyway. Nennius does not contradict himself, so I apologise to him.
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 02-May-2008 at 14:59
Back to Top
omshanti View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 02-Nov-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 429 		  Quote omshanti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2008 at 15:42
This is off topic, but since the Japanese language was mentioned a couple of times here and I happen to speak it, allow me please.
Originally posted by gcle2003

Old English: scurt
Old Norse: skurt
Old High German: scurs
IE base: (s)ker = to shear
How do you account for Japanese 'sho-to' ?
Would you please explain what 'sho-to' is in Japanese?


Originally posted by Sarmat12

Do you know what was the favorite drink of Skytho/Saxons ? Rice vodka of course !
Sake !
SAKe ! SAK=SKYTHIAN=SAXON !
Sake is an informal version of the word osake which simply means alcoholic drink, so any alcoholic drink such as beer, wine, champagne, vodka ....etc is called osake. The traditional Japanese drink made from rice is called Nihonshu.


I am enjoying reading this thread (although I have not had the time to read every detail so forgive me if I have missed something or if I repeat anything). As many others I lean towards being skeptical about the saxon-scythian connection. I would like to keep it open nevertheless.
Wouldn't it better Cyrus, to use as a reference for the discussion, the Ossetian language which is the closest living language to Scythian rather than Persian? Or perhaps even Pashto which is at least classified as a northern Iranic language like Scythian as opposed to Persian which is classified southern? I personally think that the Scythian language(s) and (modern) Persian are the furthest languages from each other within the Iranic languages both in time and space. Something like Modern English and ancient Gothic Language(s) within the Germanic languages , Or modern Irish or scottish Gaelic and ancient Galatian within the Celtic languages.

My own opinion about this topic is that it is quite possible that there were some interactions between the westernmost Scythians or Iranics and the ancestors of Saxons, but it is very unlikely that Saxons were Scythians. Any similarity I think is more likely to be due to either the Proto-Indo-European root they share or/and these possible interactions.
I am open however, as I wrote.

What is interesting is that many peoples in the world would love to and have already tried desperately to claim some kind of connection to the Scythians. So it is quite refreshing to see the opposite.

The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle seems like a very interesting book. I saw it in a second hand book shop recently. I should have bought it.



Edited by omshanti - 02-May-2008 at 17:22
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2008 at 17:13
Originally posted by omshanti

This is off topic, but since the Japanese language was mentioned a couple of times here and I happen to speak it, allow me please.
Originally posted by gcle2003

Old English: scurt
Old Norse: skurt
Old High German: scurs
IE base: (s)ker = to shear
How do you account for Japanese 'sho-to' ?
Would you please explain what 'sho-to' is in Japanese?


I don't speak Japanese, but I was under the impression it  indicated a short sword.
  from
it looks like it might have been not all that short.
 
My tongue was somewhat in my cheek.


Edited by gcle2003 - 02-May-2008 at 17:29
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2008 at 19:42

If you are going to become a proffessional historian, you have to realize those are not credible sources. Try a modern scholar for a change. The Scythian origin of Monmouth et. al. is about as credible as them claiming Trojan and Israeli descent as well. It's only based on nonsensical name-similarities and propaganda purposes. Don't make the mistake of taking all the Glorious Past histories seriously - because no historian will take you seriously in return.

I have to realize those are not credible sources just because they mention a Scythian migration? but if a modern scholar denies this fact with no source, then I should believe him to become a proffessional historian?!! yes?

It can be said those Israeli things (ten lost tribes of Israel) relate to their religious beliefs but what was their purpose for connecting Saxons, Scots, Picts, ... to Scythians who were also an Indo-European people? As I said in the old thread, it can be even said that Scythians were originally a Germanic people who migrated to the south and mixed with Iranic peoples.
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2008 at 20:22
Based on the similar kind of "evidence" you use here Cyrus, one can even claim that Scythians were in fact Turks. There is much more sense in saying that Scythians were Turks, rather than saying that Saxons=Skythians.
 
You just want to prove the idea you like i.e. that Saxons=Scythians by any means. If something mentions this fantastic Saxon/Scytian connection, you represent it here as  "solid" evidence.
 
You need to distinguish between the real facts and historical fiction. Sources are very important, cause if there is no credible source for a historical claim, it's just a speculation,  a hypo at best.
 
What you present here are not credible sources but Medieval national foundation myths. They indeed were taken for granted in the 15th century, but not now.
 
For Medieval chronists the Bible was the similar "reliable" source as Ancient Greek and Roman chronicles and epics. And Bible is in fact, at least, partly, historical source. Everything that ancient chronists couldn't explain or didn't know, they substituted from Bible, antique epic and antique historical books. That's how their myths developed. If they were not sure about the ancient roots of their people they just picked up some great tribes from Bible, Illiad or Herodotus and made them their ancestors. Medieval chronists are taken for granted only when they write about contemporary events of their age, but not when they are trying to claim something about ancient times centuries before them.
 
It's not less valid saying that Britts originate from Israeilits if you agree with the fairytails that Saxons originate from Skythians. Both of those are fantazies unsupported by real historical evidence.
 
If you like you can read more about national foundation myths here:
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Sarmat12 - 03-May-2008 at 05:18
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
omshanti View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 02-Nov-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 429 		  Quote omshanti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2008 at 21:19
Originally posted by gcle2003

I don't speak Japanese, but I was under the impression it indicated a short sword. from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Dt%C5%8D

Thanks for the reply Gcle.
Now I see what you mean. Since (east) Asian Languages use much less types of sounds compared to other (non-east Asian) language groups such as the Indo-European, Uralic, Afro-Asiatic, or etc languages, there are so many words with the same sounds which are distinguished by intonation, context and the writing characters, making it really hard to recognise when written in Latin alphabet and out of context.
Any way, 'shoto' literally means small sword (rather than short sword) and is a combination of two characters one meaning small (sho) and the other meaning sword (to), the character for short is actually different and read 'tan' so a short sword would be 'tanto' which consequently means a knife since there is no distinction between the concepts of sword and knife. These are also actually the Japanesized Chinese reading of the characters, and in the actual Japanese reading a small sword is 'kogatana' and a short sword is 'mijikai katana'.

Sorry for being off-topic.

Regarding Scythians, I found about a really interesting conference that I would have loved to take part in myself. Has anyone reading this post by any chance participated in this conference?



Edited by omshanti - 03-May-2008 at 07:26
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2008 at 09:09
Originally posted by omshanti

Originally posted by gcle2003

I don't speak Japanese, but I was under the impression it indicated a short sword. from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Dt%C5%8D

Thanks for the reply Gcle.
Now I see what you mean. Since (east) Asian Languages use much less types of sounds compared to other (non-east Asian) language groups such as the Indo-European, Uralic, Afro-Asiatic, or etc languages, there are so many words with the same sounds which are distinguished by intonation, context and the writing characters, making it really hard to recognise when written in Latin alphabet and out of context.
Any way, 'shoto' literally means small sword (rather than short sword) and is a combination of two characters one meaning small (sho) and the other meaning sword (to), the character for short is actually different and read 'tan' so a short sword would be 'tanto' which consequently means a knife since there is no distinction between the concepts of sword and knife. These are also actually the Japanesized Chinese reading of the characters, and in the actual Japanese reading a small sword is 'kogatana' and a short sword is 'mijikai katana'.

Sorry for being off-topic.
Well, it was me led it astray Smile. I just wanted to point out the traps involved in looking for similarities between words in languages one doesn't actually speak oneself. Falling into one myself was a great way of doing that.


Regarding Scythians, I found about a really interesting conference that I would have loved to take part in myself. Has anyone reading this post by any chance participated in this conference?

No, and it would be out of my usual fields of interest anyway. I noticed oddly, in the Russian version
Все сессии будут проведены в Auditorium Факультета Философии и Искусства Автономного Университета Барселоны.
 
(All sessions will be held in the Auditorium of the faculty of philosophy and the arts of the Autonous University of Barcelona.)
I wonder why they gave up on translating 'auditorium'?  (зрителъный зал)
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2008 at 09:18
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

If you are going to become a proffessional historian, you have to realize those are not credible sources. Try a modern scholar for a change. The Scythian origin of Monmouth et. al. is about as credible as them claiming Trojan and Israeli descent as well. It's only based on nonsensical name-similarities and propaganda purposes. Don't make the mistake of taking all the Glorious Past histories seriously - because no historian will take you seriously in return.

I have to realize those are not credible sources just because they mention a Scythian migration?

No, you have to realise these are not credible sources because they, e.g., trace racial origins back to Noah and on to Adam.
 
You also miss the main point which is that none of the sources you quote claim that the Saxons were Scythians. They all say that the peoples they say are descended from Scythians were enemies of the Saxons. You might at least read the things you claim support you.
 
And you might learn the differences between Saxons, Picts and Irish.
but if a modern scholar denies this fact with no source, then I should believe him to become a proffessional historian?!! yes?
It's the very sources you quote that deny the Saxons were Scythians.

It can be said those Israeli things (ten lost tribes of Israel) relate to their religious beliefs but what was their purpose for connecting Saxons, Scots, Picts, ... to Scythians who were also an Indo-European people?

They took the Biblical story of Noah literally, so that all the peoples of Europe had to descend from Japheth, just as all the peoples of Asia had to descend from Shem. So for instance, according to them, Persians and Indians are more closely related to Chinese and Turks than they are to Slavs and Goths. And Saxons.
 
As I said in the old thread, it can be even said that Scythians were originally a Germanic people who migrated to the south and mixed with Iranic peoples.
 
That it can be said doesn't indicate in the least that it's true. Except to some extent around the Baltic, the direction of European migrations is westward and southward.
Back to Top
Seph View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 06-May-2008
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0 		  Quote Seph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2008 at 03:59
Actually, there MUST BE a relation between the Scythians and the Germanic people. 
1. Anthropological evidence: Herodotus in  book five describes Schythians in a suspiciously "Germanic" way - as ..."ruddy  and blue-eyed people"; Both Strabo and Pliny the Elder agree on their Germanic physical appearance: "...These people, they said, exceeded the ordinary human height, had flaxen hair, and blue eyes...."
Germanic or  not, it is obvious from the above that at least some of the Scythian tribes did  belong to the northern European world in their physical appearance.
However, based on their physical traits, SOME of the Scythians could easily qualify for ANCESTORS  not only to the Germanic/Scandinavians, but also Slavonic/Baltic tribes.
2. Population genetics evidence. At this point, as we ALL know, the Y-chromosome haplogroup that is being affiliated with  Scythian presence is R1a1. Approximately 35 % of contemporary German males are descendants from this genetic line. In a number of other ethnic groups - from Uighur and Iranians trough Ukrainians to the Poles  (pls. do not ask me for hyperlinks) this haplogroup is the most populous one, referring to a rather rich Scythian genetic heritage in Germanic, Slavonic, central Asian and Iranian people...
3. Another genetic evidence is Lactose tolerance phenomenon. Believe it or not, the nickname, that Herodotus gives to the Scythes was "Milk-Eaters" (see book 5) and this is how they are known in the ancient Mediterranean world, including Romans - "The Scythian Milk-eaters". Herodotus was impressed with Scythian milk-eating habits for a reason - virtually the entire ancient Mediterranean population, including Greeks and Romans,  were lactose intolerant, as Romans from the late antiquity even used the lactose-rich horse milk for a purgative. Unlike them, Scythian were obviously lactose tolerant, according to Herodotus. Currently there is geographic distribution of the lactose tolerance / intolerance in Europe, as the highest per sent of people, who similarly to the Scythian are lactose-tolerant, are these from northern Europe - up to 80% of Scandinavians, Anglo-Saxons, Balts and north Slavonic. The highest number of people with lactose intolerance are still the inhabitants of the former ancient Mediterranean world http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_tolerance. This specific genetic trait is obviously shared between Scythian and the people from what is now Baltic region, including Germans. How the genetic lactose tolerance of the Scythian has been inherited from the German and Slavonic tribes in not easily explainable, if we insist that there is no connection between them...
3. Mistakenly or not, the Hebrew scripts refer to the Scythian as to "Ashkenazim" - i.e. "Germanic" people. Why?  
4. In his third book of the History of the Wars Procopius claims that..: "There were many Gothic nations in earlier times,...but the greatest and most important of all are the Goths, Vandals, Visigoths, and Gepaedes. In ancient times, however, they were named Sauromatae and Melanchlaeni"...Why Procopius puts the late antiquity Germanic tribes among the Scythian? Is he wrong? Perhaps he is; However, Jordanes, who is Goth himself clames that Goths are of Iranian/Scythian ancestry regardless of their Germanic language...Is the Goth Jordanes wrong as well, describing himself as a Scythian, not as German? Yes, he could be. But the other option would be that he is partly right and at least some of the tribes, that Herodotus describes as "Scythian", were actually proto-Germanic.....
5. All Scythian  burials reveal horse sacrifices, at least, in their upper class, and there is a lot of ritualistic and material evidence for cultural connections between Scythian burial mounds from pontic-steppe area and the burial rites, described by Ahmad ibn Fadlan in regard with the Vikings...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_funeral#Ibn_Fadlan.27s_account
Are you, guys, familiar with Fadlan's book?
Based and the above -  physical appearance, genetic connection, material culture and spiritual culture,  etc. it does not sounds impossibly hard to imagine that there is SOME sort of ethnic affinity between SOME of the Scythian steppe people and the proto-Germanic / proto-Slavonic tribes...
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2008 at 04:21
Well, undoubtly Eastern Germanic tribes intermingled with the Iranic nomades in the empire of Ermanaric. We also know that Goths had very good relations with Alans. However, how reliable is the claim that Saxons are Skythians?  What valid evidence we have about this?
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Seph View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 06-May-2008
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0 		  Quote Seph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2008 at 04:59
Sarmat12,
I would say, none...
However, not only  ethnicity but also languages are "work in progres". I would not argue in behalf of Scythian-Saxon relation. Moreover, there is no doubt that the linguistic connection between Iranic-speaking  Scythian and Germanic speaking "Germanic tribes" (I believe "Saxons" are much later construct) is rather weak....so the linguistic evidence, unlike genetic and cultural evidence, is missing; However, both proto-Germanic and proto Balto-Slavonic tribes MUST have spoken SOME language BEFORE they start speaking proto-Germanic, respectively Proto-Slavonic.....languages are evolving, germanic ethnic affinity is much younger that Scythian ethnic affinity - according to what did Herodotus record from his conversation with the Scythes , they should have formed / distinguished their language and ethnicity from their ansestral population in the 15th century BC ( 5c. BC minus one thousand years) No matter how provisional Herodotus account is, still the formation of Scythian ethnicity is divided from the formation of Germanic and Slavonic tribes   with at least 2000 years, which, linguistically, is a long period of time (1000 years are enough for two languages to become mutually uninteligible), more than enough for a language to change from Scythian with its Iranic features to proto-German/ Protoslavonic...This is not my point, though. My point is in Scythian mythology, in their foundational myth, as described by Herodotus, which could tell us surprisingly a lot about the differentiation of the Scythian tribes and their evolution into what later became Germanic and Balto-Slavonic tribes...I will post it whenever I can.
 
Back to Top
Seph View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 06-May-2008
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0 		  Quote Seph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2008 at 06:24
Herodotus: "..a plough, a yoke, an axe, and a bowl, all made of gold, fell from heaven upon the Scythian territory. The oldest of the brothers wished to take them away, but as he drew near the gold began to burn. The second brother approached them, but with the like result. The third and youngest then approached, upon which the fire went out, and he was enabled to carry away the golden gifts. The two eldest then made the youngest king.....The elder brothers then, acknowledging the significance of this thing, delivered the whole of the kingly power to the youngest. From Lixopais, they say, are descended those Scythians who are called the race of the Auchatai; from the middle brother Arpoxais those who are called Catiaroi and Traspians, and from the youngest of them the “Royal” tribe, who are called Paralatai: and the whole together are called, they say, Scolotoi, after the name of their king; but the Hellenes gave them the name of Scythians. Thus the Scythians say they were produced;........."
Both G. Dumezil and David W. Anthony in his book http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/s8488.html consider this myth a representation of the tipical for  the indo-europeans division of labor in the scythian society , their  class stratification; the axe represents the warrior class; the yoke and plough represent the peasantry/ husbandry/ farming strata in Scythian society; the bowl represents the priestly class....If D. Anthony is right (he better be) from its very beginning the Scythes were divided into three different classes similarly to the casts in the Indo-Iranian society. The three casts/classes interacted, but did not intermixed; did not intermarried and did not live together. The warrior class led the numerous wars, that made Scythian famous in the antiquity, the priests did their priestly thing, and the peasantry...they produced for the other two classes, they did not fought in warsthey remained in the shadows... what they did was husbandry and farming...at least according to the story, that Herodotus heard from the "Scythes"... 
...obviously, the ancient world knew only the warrior class, these are the people who Herodotus met in the pontic steppe, the people, described as "Scythes" by the other ancient chronographs.
My personal question would be: Well, we all know of the Scythian infantry and Scythian warriors. But...who were their peasants? And where we they located with their farms and husbandries? Whit their ploughs and yokes? They did exist- Schythians were exporting grains to  ancient Greece, this is why Greek trade post were located near Herson and Bosporus . Herodotus do confirmes the existence of the Scythian peasantry - he writhes that they live "north" of the steppe, non-the-less, he call them "Scythes, who do husbandry" but states that he never so them. So, who were these people? What happened to the class of Scythian peasants, when the warrior class of the pontic scythes got pushed east first by the sarmatians, and later by alans, huns, etc. My speculations is that this class of the Scythian society, known by their stories as peasants and farmers,  survived in the North European forests the destruction of the warrior class, outlived the other Scythian stratas and emerged in the history as "Slavs" and "Germans".... It is not hard to speculate, that division in the Scythian society from social with the time had became linguistic and at the end - ethnic...
Regards.
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2008 at 07:18
Actually, Herodotus clearly writes about "Skythians-ploughmen" a distinct group of Skythians. A lot of Russian historians, including for example famous Academician Rybakov write that Skythian-poughmen were Slavs.
 
However, I don't think I complitely understood your idea about Germanic and Slavic languages originating from Iranic languages?
 
Sorry if I misunderstood something.
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2008 at 08:27
Originally posted by Seph


However, Jordanes, who is Goth himself clames that Goths are of Iranian/Scythian ancestry regardless of their Germanic language...Is the Goth Jordanes wrong as well, describing himself as a Scythian, not as German?

No, he claimed the Goths originated in Scandinavia.
Assuming you mean the Getica, there's a short passage about a Scythisn Magog - a very popular figure to trace inheritance from. Don't remember that he said anything about the Goths coming from them though.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 06-May-2008 at 10:03
Back to Top
Seph View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 06-May-2008
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0 		  Quote Seph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2008 at 09:11
Originally posted by Sarmat12

...Germanic and Slavic languages originating from Iranic languages?
Not sure, Sarmat12 . I am not a linguist (just an anthropologist)
Anyway, that's what I mean: given enough time and right circumstances, the social division can become linguistic/ethnic division. We all know of many historical occasions, where two ethnically and linguistically distinct groups merge to form one single entity, as one of the groups becomes "ruling elite" - which means that ethnic difference has been replaced (or masked) by class differences - what has been once a different tribe has become a "different class" of the same tribe ...Think of Variags/Slavonic relationship or of Saxon/Celtic relationship in England - from different "nations" they become "different classes" within a single society...now, my point is - could this happen the other way around? - three different classes from the same nation, with the time (2000 years) become three different nations - class differences are transformed into ethnic differences... Majority view, which I support is that Scythian are Indo-Iranian-Iranians; considering that both Indians and Iranians had cast systems obeying class rules in their (lack of) interclass relations, how could be possibly for us to think that Scythian did not have this  class system as well? 
Hey, they shared everything else with indo-iranians, at least in certain point back in time....and if they had this cast/class system, where was their peasant class? The foundation myth says that the warrior class took the power, hence, started allocating resources from the peasantry, departing further and further in its division - if the two social groups co-existed for 2000 years within a single "Scythian" entity, but without too much interaction, as it seems, there is plenty of room for the aggregation of  big differences between these two classes, big enough for them to start looking (and acting) as different ethnic groups..
The linguists give us divergence time of the indoeuropean languages 5500 years (give or take 1000). Which means that  for today's most distant IE languages - let say Albanian and English - it took t 5500 years to become as different as they are now.
It took considerably less time - 2000 years, for Irish and Welsh (both closely related, including geographically, Celtic languages) to branch out from single  "Celtic" language to a mutually un-understandable languages; same happened  between Hetty's and Paluvian - that gives as an average divergence time of 2000 years for any single IE language to split to the degree of distinctiveness that German, Slavonic and Iranian language show today. Moreover, the first written record of Slavonic is from 10th century AD - we really have no idea how did this language sound, say, 1000 years earlier - during 1st century AD;  If any form of Vedic law existed in the Scythian society from the Pontic steppe, this law would give the required social isolation for the Scythian classes to diverge both linguistically and ethnically. And would not affect their lactose tolerance, and shared physical appearance.
Back to Top
Seph View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 06-May-2008
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0 		  Quote Seph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2008 at 10:05
Let us misread together then:
Jordanes, Getica:
 
..(63) Afterwards Darius, king of the Persians, the son of Hystaspes, demanded in marriage the daughter of Antyrus, king of the Goths, asking for her hand and at the same time making threats in case they did not fulfil his wish. The Goths spurned this alliance and brought his embassy to naught. Inflamed with anger because his offer had been rejected, he led an army of seven hundred thousand armed men against them and sought to avenge his wounded feelings by inflicting a public injury. ...etc etc
Jordanes does states that the homeland of the Goths is Scandinavia; However, he  obviously  considers them to be a Scythian tribe....
Jordanes does not seems credible in many points, anyway. There are no "Goths" in Scythia during 5 century BC, as he beleives... 
 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 7891011 45>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.082 seconds.