Saxon and Scythian

No 'sh'-sound? There are 5 different sh sounds in Swedish, and at least one in English.  In  German there is two, etc.

You are talking about the Old Swedish, English and German languages or modern? You know yourself that "sh" sounds in these modern languages is just because the influence of Saxon language on them.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri No 'sh'-sound? There are 5 different sh sounds in Swedish, and at least one in English.  In  German there is two, etc. You are talking about the Old Swedish, English and German languages or modern? You know yourself that "sh" sounds in these modern languages is just because the influence of Saxon language on them.

Wrong. The 'sh'-sound in Swedish developed very recently, with no connection whatsoever with Saxon.

Let me get something straight: are you suggesting that Saxon alone was Iranic, or that all Germanic languages are in fact, Iranic?

Another example of Germanic Centum-ness is the similarities between the verbs curto and skorta. It is no coincidence that the words are so similar. Take the first sillybles of both words cur- and skor- notice how similar they are? It should also be noted that at time the Old Norse skorta could and would be written scurta. The final syllable of each word is also incredibly close, granted the Latin one is a personal ending and the ON is an inf marker, however it can also be a personal ending just not the 1st sg.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Old English: scurt Old Norse: skurt Old High German: scurs IE base: (s)ker = to shear What does it prove? K -> SK -> S/Sh For example Darius the great in one of his inscriptions says "It is not my desire that the Skauthi should have wrong done to him by the mighty." "Skauthi" is an old Persian word which means "Shaky/Shuddery/Weak" in English and "Skut" in the Old Saxon, in the middle Persian language this word was changed to "Shot/Shul".

Skud is old Germanic. All Germanic languages have derivatives of it. Again, what are you trying to prove?

King John, these language trees have been designed for kids, if you know nothing about the Persian language then you can't say that Saxon is more similar to the Persian language or German languages, for example about the name of animals, what do you know about the origin of "Bird", "Dog", "Sheep", "Pig" and several other animals, is there any similar word in the Germanic languages?

What about the name of Metals?

For example the Old Persian word Brangs (Modern Persian Birinj), an old Iranian composed word which means "Brass". We know that Bronze (Spanish bronce, Swedish brons, Italian bronzo, French bronze, Czech bronz, Portuguese bronzear, Slovak bronz, Norwegian bronse, Croatian bronca, Dutch bronzen, ...) is a loan word from modern Persian langauge:

Bronze: http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O999-bronze.html ORIGIN: mid 17th cent. (as a verb): from French bronze (noun), bronzer (verb), from Italian bronzo, from Persian birinj �brass.�

Now what do you know about the origin of the old Saxon word "Brass"?

Another example can be the Saxon word for "Iron" which is "Asen" (German "Eisen" comes from this word), the very Persian word for "Iron" is "Aseng", this is also an old Iranian composed word which originaly meant "Millstone". (As=Mill & Seng=Stone)

Ignore them, I think the most famous Iranian words are "Shah" (King) and "Shahr" (County), please tell me your idea about it:

Old Persian: Shatra-pa (country-protector) = Satrap (a provincial governor in the ancient Persian empire)
Middle Persian: Sheripa (Shahr means "county": Iranshahr, Khorramshahr, Noshahr, ...)
Saxon:: Sheriff (Sher (Shire) also means County: Cheshire, Hampshire, Yorkshire, ...)

What are the similar Germanic words?

I'm going to provide a few texts and you tell me how closely they are related.

Text 1

Ni�v�r het konvngr i Svi�io�; hann atti tv� sono oc eina dottvr, hon het Ba/dvildr. Bro�r v�ro �r�r synir Finnakonvngs; h�t einn sl*gfi�r, annarr Egill, �ri�i Volvndr; �eir scri�o oc veiddo d�r. �eir qvomo i Vlfdali oc ger�o ser �ar hvs; �ar er vatn, er heitir Vlfsi�r. Snemma of morgin fvndo �eir a vazstrondo konor �ri�r, oc spvnno l�n; �ar v�ro hia �eim alptarhamir �eirra; �at v�ro valkyrior. �ar v�ro tver dotr La/�v�ss konvngs, Hla�gv�r svanhvit oc Hervor alvitr, enn �ri�ia var Avlrvn Kiars dottir af Vallande. �eir ha/fdo �er heim til scala me� ser. Fecc Egill Avlrvnar, enn sl*gfi�r Svanhvitrar, enn Va/lvndr Alvitrar. �a/ bioggo siau vetr; �a flvgo �er at vitia viga, oc qvomo eigi aptr. �a screi� Egill at leita Avlrvnar, enn sl*gfi�r leita�i Svanhvitrar, enn Volvndr sat i Vlfda/lom. Hann var hagastr ma�r sva at menn viti i fornom sa/gom. Ni�v�r konvngr let hann ha/ndom taca, sva sem her er vm qve�it.

Text 2

mit stridu. uui so stillo sculun� freson is ferahes. that thit folc iudeono�an thesun uuihdagun. uuroht ni afhebbien. || Tho geng imu thar iudas ford� iungaro kristes. en thero tuelibio� that that adali sat. iu- deono gumscepi. quad that he is im godan rad� seggian mahti. huat uuilliad gi mi sellien her quad he. medmo te medu. ef ik iu thene man gibu. ano uuig endi ano uuroht. Tho uuard thes uuerodes
hugi� thero liudio an lustun. ef thu uuili gilestien so quadun sie� thin uuord giuuaron. than thu giuuald habes. huat thu at thesaru thiodu� thiggean uuillies. godaro medmo. Tho gihet imu that
gumscepi thar� an is selbes dom� silubarscatto. thritig atsamne. endi he te theru thiodu gisprak� derebeun uuordun. that he gabi is drohtin uuid thiu. Uuende ina tho fan themu uuerode. uuas im uured hugi�
talode im so treulos. huan er uurdi imu thiu tid kuman. that he ina mahti faruuisien. uuredaro thiodo. fiundo folke.

Text 3

Her com �lfred, se unsce��iga ��eling, ��elr�des
sunu cinges, hider inn and wolde to his meder, �e on Win-
cestre s�t, ac hit him ne ge�afode Godwine eorl, ne ec o�re
men �e mycel mihton wealdan, for�an hit hleo�rode �a

swi�e toward Haraldes, �eh hit unriht w�re.
Ac Godwine hine �a gelette        and hine on h�ft sette,
and his geferan he todraf,        and sume mislice ofsloh;
sume hi man wi� feo sealde,        sume hreowlice acwealde,
sume hi man bende,        sume hi man blende,

Text 4
1 baga : vazraka : Auramazd� : hya : im
2 �m : bum�m : ad� : hya : avam : asm
3 �nam : ad� : hya : martiyam : ad� : h
4 ya : shiy�tim : ad� : martiyahy�
5 : hya : D�rayavaum : xsh�yathiyam : ak
6 unaush : aivam : par�vn�m : xsh�yath
7 iyam : aivam : par�vn�m : fram�t�
8 ram : adam : D�rayavaush : xsh�yathiya : va
9 zraka : xsh�yathiya : xsh�yathiy�n�m
10 : xsh�yathiya : dahy�n�m : vispazan�
11 n�m : xsh�yathiya : ahy�y� : b�mi



I ask that the moderators bear with me as I am not going to provide sources for these four texts until Cyrus tells me which one doesn't fit. Then I will provide sources. I will not provide translations since they are often available at the sites I took these texts from.

So Cyrus, which of these text is most unlike the other? Which is the least similar? Which one doesn't seem to fit?

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri King John, these language trees have been designed for kids, if you know nothing about the Persian language then you can't say that Saxon is more similar to the Persian language or German languages, for example about the name of animals, what do you know about the origin of "Bird", "Dog", "Sheep", "Pig" and several other animals, is there any similar word in the Germanic languages?

Bird is not Saxon, it appeared in English relatively lately. The Old Saxon word is fugal, akin to German Vogel and Swedish f�gel. Dog appeared lately as well. Old Saxon was hund (German Hund, Swedish hund). Old Saxon skap means sheep, compare with Swedish boskap, livestock (bo- means it's part of the household). Old Saxon for "pig" is swin (German schwein, English swine, Swedich svin).

What about the name of Metals? For example the Old Persian word Brangs (Modern Persian Birinj), an old Iranian composed word which means "Brass". We know that Bronze (Spanish bronce, Swedish brons, Italian bronzo, French bronze, Czech bronz, Portuguese bronzear, Slovak bronz, Norwegian bronse, Croatian bronca, Dutch bronzen, ...) is a loan word from modern Persian langauge:

This is totally unrelated to old Saxon.

Now what do you know about the origin of the old Saxon word "Brass"?

I can't find brass in my Old Saxon dictionary, maybe you are referring to old English?

Another example can be the Saxon word for "Iron" which is "Asen" (German "Eisen" comes from this word), the very Persian word for "Iron" is "Aseng", this is also an old Iranian composed word which originaly meant "Millstone". (As=Mill & Seng=Stone)

All Germanic words for iron dates back longer than any contacts between Iranic and Germanic peoples.

Ignore them, I think the most famous Iranian words are "Shah" (King) and "Shahr" (County), please tell me your idea about it: Old Persian: Shatra-pa (country-protector) = Satrap (a provincial governor in the ancient Persian empire) Middle Persian: Sheripa (Shahr means "county": Iranshahr, Khorramshahr, Noshahr, ...) Saxon:: Sheriff (Sher (Shire) also means County: Cheshire, Hampshire, Yorkshire, ...) What are the similar Germanic words?

Sheriff is English. Not Saxon. It's derived from scirgerefa, the e doesn't come from shire(scir), but from gerefa, meaning official. In Sweden there are loads of places ending with -stan, eg Birkastan, Vasastan etc. Maybe Swedes are in fact Pakistanis?


---
All your examples are either irrelevant, or related to the fact that Germanic and Iranic languages belong to the same language group.

Again, what are you trying to prove? That Saxon is Iranic, or that all Germanic languages are Iranic?


Edited by Styrbiorn - 27-Apr-2008 at 21:46

Is he going after the Old Saxon language, or Anglo-Saxon language, Old English?

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri King John, these language trees have been designed for kids, if you know nothing about the Persian language then you can't say that Saxon is more similar to the Persian language or German languages, for example about the name of animals, what do you know about the origin of "Bird", "Dog", "Sheep", "Pig" and several other animals, is there any similar word in the Germanic languages? Bird is not Saxon, it appeared in English relatively lately. The Old Saxon word is fugal, akin to German Vogel and Swedish f�gel. Dog appeared lately as well. Old Saxon was hund (German Hund, Swedish hund). Old Saxon skap means sheep, compare with Swedish boskap, livestock (bo- means it's part of the household). Old Saxon for "pig" is swin (German schwein, English swine, Swedich svin). What about the name of Metals? For example the Old Persian word Brangs (Modern Persian Birinj), an old Iranian composed word which means "Brass". We know that Bronze (Spanish bronce, Swedish brons, Italian bronzo, French bronze, Czech bronz, Portuguese bronzear, Slovak bronz, Norwegian bronse, Croatian bronca, Dutch bronzen, ...) is a loan word from modern Persian langauge: This is totally unrelated to old Saxon. Now what do you know about the origin of the old Saxon word "Brass"? I can't find brass in my Old Saxon dictionary, maybe you are referring to old English? Another example can be the Saxon word for "Iron" which is "Asen" (German "Eisen" comes from this word), the very Persian word for "Iron" is "Aseng", this is also an old Iranian composed word which originaly meant "Millstone". (As=Mill & Seng=Stone) All Germanic words for iron dates back longer than any contacts between Iranic and Germanic peoples. Ignore them, I think the most famous Iranian words are "Shah" (King) and "Shahr" (County), please tell me your idea about it: Old Persian: Shatra-pa (country-protector) = Satrap (a provincial governor in the ancient Persian empire) Middle Persian: Sheripa (Shahr means "county": Iranshahr, Khorramshahr, Noshahr, ...) Saxon:: Sheriff (Sher (Shire) also means County: Cheshire, Hampshire, Yorkshire, ...) What are the similar Germanic words? Sheriff is English. Not Saxon. It's derived from scirgerefa, the e doesn't come from shire(scir), but from gerefa, meaning official. In Sweden there are loads of places ending with -stan, eg Birkastan, Vasastan etc. Maybe Swedes are in fact Pakistanis? --- All your examples are either irrelevant, or related to the fact that Germanic and Iranic languages belong to the same language group. Again, what are you trying to prove? That Saxon is Iranic, or that all Germanic languages are Iranic?

Styrbiorn: stan is a well-known Iranian suffix not Pakistani.

Kurdistan
Luristan = land of the Lurs,
Kuhistan = Mountain (Kuh = Mount,  stan = place)
.................................................................................................................................

I think Cyrus is trying to say among all European languages old Saxon is the closest one to old Persian. (Not saying Persian is the only and most closest language to old Saxon). All you need to know is that Scythian language was not Persian language but a close language to Persian language. Please pay attention that Persian and Iranic are two totally different word and have different meaning. Persian is one of the Iranic languages not all of them. Btw, Scythian langauge is an old language which was spread in a large distance between central asia and eastern europe. This means it can adopt many words from other languages and after all these years who knows what has remained from that language when its native speakers had disappeared from the history long time ago.


My point: Even if there was a branch of Scythian language among the Sea of Germanic speakers in the past, it definitely had adopted many germanic words or even changed its structure and after centuries disappeared this discussion has no point since you guys can not convince each others.  

We know almost nothing about "Scythian language" except the few word listed by Herodotus and a few other antique historians. Most of these words are the names of gods and tribes. Other than that these is no any reliable information on Scythian language.