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Saxon and Scythian
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Posts: 1673 		  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Saxon and Scythian
    Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 22:43
Is there any connection between Saxons and Scythian?
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Posts: 1673 		  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 23:15
I think there is a narrow connection but  I didn't find enough evidence from good online sources to back it up perfect.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 11:11
"The History of the Anglo-Saxons" by Sharon Turner (1768-1847):
 
"The Saxons were a German or Teutonic, that is, a Gothic or Scythian tribe; and of the various Scythian nations which have been recorded, the Sakai, or Sacae are the people from whom the descent of the Saxons may be inferred, with the least violation of probability. Sakai-suna, or the sons of the Sakai, abbreviated into Saksun, which is the same sound as Saxon, seems a reasonable etymology of the word Saxon."


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 05-Oct-2006 at 11:13
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 12:40
That is conjecture she has no proof whatsoever she merely speculates. I have read that piece written by Sharon Turner, she also said that the Saxons were at some point defeated by the Persians and sent scuttering across Trans-Asia to end up in England.
 
Actually, there is no connection between the words Saxon and Scythian. 


Edited by Zagros - 05-Oct-2006 at 17:43
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Posts: 300 		  Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 15:36
Scyt-ian refers to "shot" or "offspring".
Sax-on refers to "part".
 
In the Nordic languages - which is supposed to still maintain its ancient semantics...
 
These etnicities have had different languages, as the Scytian belongs to the Fenno-Ugrian part and the Saxon to the Germanic part of old Eurasia.
 
The old division-line is still existing, although both languages have changed, due to Greek respectively Roman influence. But the old cultural border can be seen between Swedes and Finns, as well as along the river Wizla/Weichsel.  Here the Slavic people relate to the Scytians while the Germans/Austrians and Swiz descend from the Saxons. 
 
Though - it may be significant to stress that they both originate from one and the same source, - namely from a small group of h.s. sapiens that survived the end of ice-time in the Baltic, where the caucasian features developed...
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urgh?
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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2006 at 02:47
When Tacitus wrote his Germania, (c. AD 96), he did not know about any "Saxons".  Instead he knew about a group of tribes where the Saxons eventually were known to have been located.  When the geographer Ptolemy (c. AD 150) wrote about Germany, that group of tribes no longer existed, but instead, their names were replaced by the name "Saxons".  The conjecture, is that sometime between the time of Tacitus and Ptolemy, those tribes mentioned by Tacitus formed a league, much like the later Franks and Alemanni, which was named the Saxons.  It is thus very unlikely that the Saxons had an Iranian origin.  The Saxons in terms of ethnogenesis only originates in the 2nd century AD.
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Posts: 3387 		  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2006 at 10:15
The problem with both ptolemy and Tacitus is that they sooo very much wanted to divide the world in nice little cubicles to analise and name. The Greeks and Romans were very fond of nice clear divisions. Unfortunately, reality back then was no more clear cut or obvious than it is now. Peoples change, move and are re-named, and therefore are rather difficult to keep track of by a couple of desk-bound writers...
 
As the scythians are described as short and dark and the saxons as tall and blonde, I'd say there is very little chance they are the same, just because their names both start with an S.

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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2006 at 11:35
There is no doubt that what Tacitus and Ptolemy presented were mere "snapshots" of the situation in Germany.  The Germanic tribes were notorious for forming "fly-by-night" leagues or even new tribes only to reform into new ones under a new leader.  However, by the mid-third century AD, those leagues gained a certain coherency such as the Franks and Alemanni and no doubt, the Saxons.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 17:56
 Agriculturalists  v Nomads
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Posts: 4361 		  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 19:06

Honestly, this is simply ludicrous. 

As Sharrukin already mentioned, first of all the Saxons were a conglomerate of smaller Germanic tribes, a confederation of tribes, not unlike the Franks, that had formed relatively late in the first centuries AD. And secondly, these tribes were Northern Germanic tribes, descendents of pre-historic settlers in Europe that had lived there ever since homo sapiens finally arrived in these regions, with very little later influx.
The Eastern Germanic tribes might have come into contact, mainly on their wanderings in the Russian steppes, and mixed with all kinds of people, but the people that later became the Saxons were a pretty settled bunch and didn't walk about too much until they set over to England in the 5th century.
I wish we could stop these dilettantic attempts on etymology, there are only so many sounds a human can make, and if two similar appaer on two different corners of the earth, it does not mean they are in any way related. And if anybody ever tries again to tell us that virtually all people in the universe and beyond are the descendents of some roaming Turkic, proto- or post- or what ever tribe, I'm gonna scream.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 10:40
This is a fact that among all European languages, old Saxon language is the most similar one to Persian language. Don't you think that there should be a reason for this huge similarity?
 
 
SAXON. PERSIAN.
am, I am. am, I am.
aelan, to burn. alaw, a flame of fire.
afora, a son. afa, the eldest son.
andega, an appointed term andan, a term.
abidan, to abide. abadan, an abode.
are, honour. aray, decoration.
arian, to honour. arayidan, to adorn.
ase, as. asay, like.
andget, the intellect, sense. angar, reason.
andgashtan, to think.
enge, trouble. anjam, grief.
andjugh, a sigh.
angel, a hook. angulah, a button.
ewe, water. aw, water.
earmth, misery. urman, trouble.
ende, the end. anjam, the end.
berend, fruitful. bar, fruit.
beeran, to carry. bar, a load.
brother, a brother. bradar, a brother.
barn, a barn. barn, a covered place.
bearn, a son. barna, a youth.
bedan, to offer. bedroz, a present.
balew, depraved. bulad, a malefactor.
beal, destruction. bulaghan, a calamity.
bilewite, simple. biladah, foolish.
beado, cruelty. bada, wickedness.
barbacan, a front tower. burbik, a portico.
bur, a chamber. barkh, an open room.
blessian, to bless. balistan, to bless.
blad, fruit, the blade. balidan, balandan, to grow
basing, a pallium, a chlamys.
basuian, to be clothed in purple.		 baz, a habit, rich dress
bered, vexed. barat, disgusted, tired.
beard, a beard. barbar, a barber.
breost, the breast. bistan, the breast.
bysmor, infamy. bazat, a crime.
basaj, depravity.
bysgu, business. bishing, business.
bile, the beak, the bill. bull, the beak.
bio, I exist. bud, existence.
benn, a wound. bunawar, a sore.
bil, a mattock. bil, a mattock.
blowan, to flower. bilak, a flower.
bidan, to expect, to await. bidar, watching.
bidari, vigilance.
byld, firmness. bilah, firm.
bend, a bond. band, a band, a chain.
bendan, to bind. bandan, bandidan, to bind
bold, a town. balad, a city.
bolt, a house. bulud, a dwelling.
byan, to inhabit.
binland, cultivated land.		 bingha, a dwelling.
beam, the sunbeam.
beamian, to beam.		 bam, the morning.
sifer, pure, chaste. saf, pure.
safa, purity.
samod, together, in like manner. saehim, a partner, even.
mirran, to hinder. maraw, go not.
marang, a bar.
man, wickedness. mang, cheating, a thief.
mona, the moon. mang, the moon.
mxden, a maiden. madah, a female.
moder, mother. madar, mother.
mara, the night-mare. mar, sick.
mal, pay, reward, tribute. malwar, rich.
maldar, a rich man.
mani, many. mali, many.
morth, death. murda, dead.
morther, murder. murdan, to die.
mearc, a limit. marz, a limit.
mus, a mouse. murz, a mouse.
must, new wine. mustar, new wine.
na, not. nah, not.
naegl, a nail. nakhun, a nail.
nafel, the navel. nal; the navel.
nama, a name. nam, a name.
iiameutha, illustrious. nami, illustrious.
necca, the neck. nojat, the collar.
neow, new. no, new.
nu, now. nun, now.
nigan, nine. nuh, nine.
hol, health. hal, quiet, firmness.
hare, hoary. harid, venerable.
isa, ice. hasir, ice.
eam, I am. hayam, I am.
iuc, a yoke. yugh, a yoke.
rad, a road. rah, a road.
reste, quiet. rast, secure.
duru, a door. dar, a door.
deni, slaughter. dam, a groan, black blood
dim, obscure. damah, a cloud.
gabban, to deride. ghab, a foolish bitter expression
gaf, loquacious. guftan, speech, to relate.
cu, a cow. go, a cow.
gers, grass. gryah, grass.
gifr, greedy. guri, avarice.
faeen, fraud. faj, a lie.
sum, some. suman, a little.
reel, prosperity. salaf, luxurious.
steorra, a star. sitarah, a star.
losewest, deception. losidan, to deceive.
leogan, to tell a lie. lay, lying.
hlogun, they laughed. lagh, a jest.
lof, praise. laf, praise.
lufa, love. laheb, love.
lam, lame. lam, crooked.
lang, lame.
lippa, the lip. law, the lip.
laf, the remainder. lab, remaining.
less, the less. lash, small.
lar, learning. lur, ability.
lust, delight. lustan, to sport.
lust, luxuriousness. lashan, nice, soft.
blyd, tumult.
hlydan, to rage, to make a noise.		 lud, furious altercation.
list, knowledge.
listum, skilfully.		 lazir, clever.
thu, thou. to, thou.
thinan, to decline, to become thin. tanik, thin.
tinterg, torment. tang, tight.
tintregan, to torture. tangi, anguish.
tawian, to cultivate. tan, an inhabitant.
teman, to teem, to bring forth abundantly. toma, twins.
wen, hope. awanidan, to hope.
wenan, to expect. awanidan, to expect.
ysel, a spark. azar, fire.
raene, pride, glorying. awrang, power, glory.
ae, a law. aym, a law.
paeca, a deceiver. pak, vile.
paecan, to deceive. pakh, ingratitude.
paeth, a path, a footway. pay, pa, a footstep.
pal, a stake. palar, a beam of wood.
paell, colour. paludan, to besmear.
pyndan, to shut up, impound
pynding, a fettering.		 paywand, a chain, a shackle
to, to. ta, to.
taer, a tear. tar, moist.
tarb, torture.
taeran, to tear. tarakidan, to split.
telan, to tell. talagh, a voice.
teiss, affliction. tasah, grief.
teisse, a stripe. tazyanah, a scourge.
tir, a lord. tir, a chief.
tir, glory. tur, a hero, bright.
siofotha, bran. sapos, bran.
seel, time. sal, a year.
seepah, age.
sul, a plough. suli, a plough.
sac, discord, quarrel. sakht, violent, stubborn.
sur, surig, sour. sirka, sirkah, vinegar.
salh, a willow. salah, a wicker-basket.
sorg, sorrow. sog, grief.
sugwar, sorrowful.
sol, solen, a shoe, a sandal. salu, a coarse shoe.
supwah, a shoe.
sole, the sole. sul , the sole.
thunar, thunder. tundar, thunder.
thunrian, to thunder. tundidan, to thunder.
tan, a bud. tundar, the bud of a leaf
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Posts: 3387 		  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 13:42
A lot of these Saxon words are very similar to Middle Dutch as well. It just proves they are both Indo-European.

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Posts: 407 		  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 08:11
The only connection i could find ,would be the existence of Sarmatian mercenaries in Britain,during late Roman times.
(its known that Sarmatians replaced Scythians in the same area)
I m sorry that i dont have much time to write an extend text about this.
The most surprising similarities (or coincidence of course) ,are the use of dragon-similar in the artifacts of Saxons and the "flags" of Sarmatians,
and the myth of Exculiber.
Scythians (and probably sarm) ,used to build tombs ,placing on top long swords,stucked on the ground or between rocks .
This is mentioned also by Herodotus,who calls them temples-tombs dedicated to Ares (god of War),as "he is the only God they worship).

(Osprey's :the "Sarmatians",the "Scythians",Herodot's "Istoriai" )
    

Edited by Brainstorm - 12-Oct-2006 at 08:18
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 11:58
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

This is a fact that among all European languages, old Saxon language is the most similar one to Persian language. Don't you think that there should be a reason for this huge similarity?
 
Well, first of all, Persian should be closer to old European languages since the new ones have been moving away since the common root for an additional 1000+ years. Further, only a few words does not prove anything, you need to look at syntax, grammar, all kinds of things. From all we know that list may be all that shows any similarity. Even modern Swedish is closer to that than Persian anyway, and that's not a descendant of Saxon. So no, I wouldn't make any conclusions whatsoever, beside that Saxon and Persian have a common root (along with German, English, Italian etc). In general, etymological "evidence" should be treated very carefully and never used as proof itself.
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 12:10

Iranian languages are satem and Germanic languages are centum, if they were so closely related, they would at least be in the same group, but they are not.
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Posts: 97 		  Quote Vedam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 14:30
Originally posted by Zagros

Iranian languages are satem and Germanic languages are centum, if they were so closely related, they would at least be in the same group, but they are not.

Agree. They are from the same family but not closely related.
I've also heard theories that the Scythians who were called in India the Sakas are the same as the tribe that Buddha belonded to the Sakyas. Even though Buddha was born on the India-nepal  boarder and the Scythians an Iranic group  did not enter India until 500 years later, and that was from the North-west.
 
 
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 14:36
At least that much is recorded.  Not all movements of the nomads could conceivably have been recorded.
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Posts: 300 		  Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 22:31

The old norse talk of "Sakser" and "Saks-land", which later becomes "Saxon" and "Saxony" in modern English.

The same source-material also describe Vaner or Vender as the neighbours of old Saxony. The Vends would polulate the entire eastern area of Europe, from Poland to Ural. Within this enormous area they would have different tribes of  Vaner/Vends; K-vens, Vene-jas, Balts, Ros-ian, Moldo-van, Transyl-van to Huner/Huns and Hun-garia.  Before they reached Bull-gard and Mikla-gard, where the people were considered Greek and not "Russian". 

The mix between these cultures finally created the "Sla-von" peoples and the "Sla-von-ic" languages of present Eurasia. Though, both the Greek and the Finno-Ugrian language still exists within their original concepts - in the rural parts of Greek Makedonia and Finland, respectively.

The Roman, Greek and Indian refer to this "Vendic people" as "Schytians". In the end their culture and their kind were consumed by the Greek church, which created the Sla-von peoples and the slavic languages, while the meeting between these Vends/Schytians and tropical Asians, finally created the Tar-tars and the Tur-ki's, as well as the First Per-son of the old Per-si-a.

Vaner/Vends and Schytians/Russians-Ucranians are basicly the same people. Even if the first letters in their various names still don't match, we may still understand the deeper semantics of their etymology - given that a required insigth is present. 

 
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Posts: 1673 		  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2006 at 01:51

If it is correct that old norse talk about "sakser" or sakland which become saxon it is clear for me that there is some connection. I know my father is from a mountainous town in north of Iran and people in that town have an special language that is very close to old avestan and old persian. the name of town in several centries ago was Sakser and I know from history of this town and researchs in ancient sites that Sakai people lived and built this town and called it sakser ( town of sakais). it's real name is sagsar now. this town is isolated and people didn't mixed with other people a lot. this can't be just random name. this can lead us to a good point.
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