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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Saxon and Scythian
    Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 12:09

ignore myths, lets again play with words, there are several Avestan words in the Persian language but there are many different words too.

English word "River" comes from Latin "Ripa", in Greek it is "Potamos", the Persian word for it is "Rota", ... as you see these words are all similar to each other.

But in Avestan language "River" is "Danu" (Ossetian "Don"), if you look at a map then you will see there is a Don river in Russia, Danube in Germany and six Don rivers in Britain. Don't you think that sometimes a same people live in these lands?
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 12:26
Wordplay is fun :) But not a tool for to determine people's movements. Words can move without people.
 
The earliest mention of a Don river in England comes from the 2nd century: far before the Saxons arrived -  the river names of Britain predates the Saxon invasion. Don is a Celtic goddess. Also some of them is not even in the area the Saxons settled.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 12-Nov-2006 at 12:27
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2006 at 06:41
Why just Saxons?! This SK is not just in Saxon and Scythian but in Scandinavian, Scot, Schwyzdu (Switzerland) , Scanian (Sweden), ... Don't you think that there is a connection between these peoples?
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2006 at 08:02
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Why just Saxons?! This SK is not just in Saxon and Scythian but in Scandinavian, Scot, Schwyzdu (Switzerland) , Scanian (Sweden), ... Don't you think that there is a connection between these peoples?



No. Not directly. Do you think there is a connection between Sparta, Spain, Spandau and Spitzbergen?
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Posts: 778 		  Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2006 at 08:20
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Why just Saxons?! This SK is not just in Saxon and Scythian but in Scandinavian, Scot, Schwyzdu (Switzerland) , Scanian (Sweden), ... Don't you think that there is a connection between these peoples?



No. Not directly. Do you think there is a connection between Sparta, Spain, Spandau and Spitzbergen?

 
 
LOL
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2006 at 08:42
No. Not directly. Do you think there is a connection between Sparta, Spain, Spandau and Spitzbergen?
 
Yes but if you show a large similarity between their languages, myths, geographical locations, ...
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2006 at 08:53
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

No. Not directly. Do you think there is a connection between Sparta, Spain, Spandau and Spitzbergen?
 
Yes but if you show a large similarity between their languages, myths, geographical locations, ...


Let me clarify, I think they are related in the sense that they are all IE peoples, which explain the language and myth issue. I do not, however, think that the Saxons and Scythians are more closely related than, say, the Franks and the Persians or Suebians and Scythians. The Saxons were Germanic just as the other tribes in that area, and not related to the Scythians (beside the aforementioned original IE speaking link).
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Posts: 300 		  Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2006 at 22:42

They still had a common origin - the proto IE group.

We find this place of origin in the Baltic area, from where it spread in two respective direction - after ice-time. Which ended some 10.000 years ago.

The origin of BOTH these branches can be found still today - on each side of the Botnic Bay-Weichsel. Thus we may speak of TWO major branches of the IE populus - that developed into the "eastern" vs. "western" cultures of Eurasia. This is also consistent with the present view of Uralic vs German languages, as well as the etnic discrepancies of east and west Eurasia respectively.

The Scytians were part of the eastern culture, the Saxons were part of the western civilisation.  It's that simple.

Btw.: The Swedish-speaking population of Finland is still a bit mysterious. Genetic traces lead to Gotland and Finland, but not to Sweden - as was previously anticipated. That may indicate that southern Finland (and possibly the coast of Estonia) have been bi-lingual since pre-historic time.

Curoisly that fits with the archeological discoveries of 1995-98, that disclosed the oldest remains of modern human beings in Europe - being some 40.000 yrs old. Which could point to the biotic refugia of the proto-caucasians that eventually introduced the IE languages...

 

 

 

 
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Posts: 0 		  Quote cemtur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 13:43
Probably no relation other than being nomadic wariors or human beings.
Saxons are one of the Germanic tribes like Goths, Franks, Angles etc.
Germans are Indo-European race.
Schytian is a generic name of a proto-IE race sometime called Irano-Europeans.
Their tribes were Alans, Kimmers, Sakas etc.
Probably German tribes and Schitan tribes were in friction in part of their history when they were relocated by Hun expansion.

Not there is no relation between Saxons and Sakas either.
Sakas are part of Iranian people together with Persians, Saxons are part of British people together with Angles.
 
Lapps (Fins), Huns (Hungarians) and Turks are also a group of similar race using the same family of language. They are not I.E. Some Schytians could be a part of first Turkic empire called Gokturks.  
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Posts: 925 		  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 14:10
Before you try to explore Saxon-Scythian relations, you should look at the Saxon origins we know. So perhaps we speak first about that and when we know where the Saxons were, we can lok if there are connections with Scythians.
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Posts: 925 		  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 23:05

The Saxons are first mentioned in Ptolemaios. But it is shown, at least by Springer, that these Saxons are Aviones and not Saxones. The saxones so appear in sources of the 4th century first. It is Eutrop in the 2nd half of the 4th century, together with Orosius, there is Julian in the middle of the 4th century, Ammianus and Claudian at the end of the 4th century and the duodecim panegyrici latini in the end of the 4th century as well. Zosimus is writing about the Saxons even in the 6th century. There is the Hegesippus as well from the 4th or 5th century that mentioned the Saxons. The times in which those Saxons appeared are different. It is mostly in the end of the 3rd and in the 4th century, but we cannot be sure if those saxones called themselves or were called saxones at these times. So we have to say that the Saxons didn't appear long before the middle of the 4th century. Only Hegesippus is speaking about Saxones in the 70th of the 1st centry. But this is just rhetorical. When those saxones appeared in the 4th century they weren't one single tribe but a group of different nations, mostly connected with sea raids along the channel coasts. If there are saxones named with there original name they are gentes from the northern areas of Germany and from Danmark.

If Saxons were Saka or Scythians, please show how those Scythians came to North Germany and Danmark, from the steppe to forestrial areas, please show how these riding warriors became so famous pirates. perhaps it's possible to show at what time they came and why they weren't mentioned in the sources.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 08:58

If Saxons were Saka or Scythians, please show how those Scythians came to North Germany and Danmark, from the steppe to forestrial areas

beorna, please read this thread: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=22148 I have posted several archaeological and historical evidences about it there.

Please mention an ancient geographer who says Scythians didn't live in the north Germany? Pomponius Mela, Pliny the elder, Strabo, ... which one?

For example please read what Pliny the Elder says: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137&layout=&loc=4.27 (Pliny the Elder, The Natural History, BOOK IV)

About the archaeological evidences, for example read these ones about Vettersfelde in North of Germany:

http://zarrinkafsch-bahman.org/10.html [Golden fish on a Scythian shield and golden shield bulge with bulls, lions, rams, panthers and goats, found in a Scythian prince's tomb near Vettersfelde, Germany]
http://www.warwick.ac.uk/philosophy/pli_journal/pdfs/pli_7.pdf [Scythian equipment has been found as far afield as Vettersfelde in North. Germany.]
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0075-4269(1973)93%3C270%3ASIEB1F%3E2.0.CO%3B2-O [Scythian work is best represented by the astonishing find from Vettersfelde in Germany.]
http://www.archaeologicaltrs.com/eu_gm_berlin.html [Scythian treasures from Vettersfelde]
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Posts: 925 		  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 11:06
C'mon mate, you know that in the mediterranian world those of the barbarians was devided into Celts in the West and Scythians in the East. The people in the middle of both were named Celto-Scythians. But that has nothing to do with the reality. You wouldn't search for a tribe called "Barbarians", wouldn't you. Or do you are a fellow citizen of a chinese or indian or russian or israeli guy, because we call you Asian?
When the Romans recognized that their were different tribes between riding nations in the east and celts in the West they gave up the term Celto-Scythians and called them e.g. Germani.
And Vettersfelde is one single source of Scythian invasion about 500 BC. There is no evidence that they stayed there, that they called themselves Saka and there is nothing known in the next 800 years about those guys. What's about the hundreds and thousands of non-scythian sources? I said it before somewhere else then Germans descend from Indonesians and Inuit, because in our language there is Amok, Iglu, Kajak and Anorak.
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 11:26
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Please mention an ancient geographer who says Scythians didn't live in the north Germany? Pomponius Mela, Pliny the elder, Strabo, ... which one?


None of them. But we went through this already.
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Posts: 925 		  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 11:34
By the way, all scythian objects found in the Lausitzer Kultur are within graves of the native people. Newest information from Vettersfelde show that it was no scythian "Frstengrab" but a cultural motivated depot of people of the Lausitzer Kultur.
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Posts: 2728 		  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 17:03
I think a connection is being made here because the first letters of the name Saxon begin with a SA. Had there not been a tribe in Germany named this, I get the feeling it wouldn't be brought up. Someone tried making a connection, and it caught like wild fire.
 
http://zarrinkafsch-bahman.org/10.html [Golden fish on a Scythian shield and golden shield bulge with bulls, lions, rams, panthers and goats, found in a Scythian prince's tomb near Vettersfelde, Germany]
According to this, they were there in 500 BC, is that correct? I don't deny it, but I didn't know they made it that far back then, I thought they remained in Eastern Europe during the Romans Republic.
 
And even if it did go that far, Scythian was often used to describe people with similarities. And judging by how art was passed through differing cultures, it would be far of a stretch to see it spread out. One of the treasures from Vettersfeld is the Vettersfish, which is a mix of Scythian and Celtic art, showing that art exchange did happened in culture.
 
I don't even see a cultural connection:
Names:
Saxon: Came from the Sword Seax.
Scythian: supposedly came from the word Skula, which ment archer.
 
To me, that puts emphasis on their cultural style, Scythians more into archery and Horseback and Saxons seemed to reveer the sword, which many Germanic tribes did as a weapon of class and importance.
 
Religion:
Saxon: Germanic in origin. They did have a patron god named Seaxneat-Anglo-Saxon, and Saxnot- Continental Saxon name. But they also celebrated other Germanic gods and believed in the concept of a World Tree like the others.
Scythians:Seem to have a belief in a Proto-Indo-Iranian religion from what I could gather.
 
 
The only connection I truely see, is the Saxons beginning with SA, thats it.
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Posts: 925 		  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 17:11
SearchandDestroy, I agree with you in most of your post. It is said that the name Saxon came from the sword sax. But it is not clear if it is correct. Sax isn't a sword in Germanic languages, it's a knife. So there could be a lot of other explanations for the word.
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Posts: 2728 		  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 17:28
Well, I think it's one of those unclear words, there's really no definition for when a dagger becomes a sword and so on. The Sax or Seax, was a shorter sword with one edge.
The word Sword comes from sweord, which means piercing thing. But I understand what your saying, talking of length here.
 
Looking at Wiki, it says there was a hadseax(shorter tool) and langseax(short sword), so it's up for interpretation I guess?
Also, due noting from Wikipedia, they make it clear that it's Germanic origin of knife, dagger, and sword.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 20:08

This discussion is useless, nothing will be changed if I show several other sources because you believe all ancient historians and geographers didn't know Scythians and confused them with other peoples!!! Ouch

"Sax" means nothing except "Knife" in the Persian and Scythian languages, the most famous Scythian weapon was "Saxar" in the Scythian language, "Sagsar" in the Persian and "Sagaris" in the Greek.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saka

Origins

The Scythian language is considered by mainstream historians and linguists as one of the Iranian languages.

The Saka speakers were gradually conquered and acculturated by the Turkic expansion to Central Asia beginning in the 4th century.
 
Saka (Scythian) horseman from Pazyryk in Central Asia, c. 300 BC.Ashkanian is the dynasty name of the Parthian empire and sources indicate that the Parthian revolt against Greek dominance over Persia started in the Semnan region.

Ashkanian means "Sakan people" or "Saka descendants". An Arab source names Sagsar as the place from which Ashkanians originated.

Sagsar, or according to varies sources, "Saka sar" or "Sagasar", is now modern Sangsar, a city in the mountainous region of Semnan Province, in the north of Iran.

For more info about Sagaris, please look at: "Histories of Herodotus, Book 7, 64", "ANABASIS, by Xenophon: Book 4, CHAPTER IV" or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagaris
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Posts: 925 		  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 21:01

Perhaps you think it is useless. Before you do not explain how these Scythian Horse-warriors became seamen and pirates, before you do not show where your Scythians or Sakas lived between 500 BC and 350 AD, before you cannot explain why the known saxon groups are all among northsee and elbgermanic groups, before you do not show that Saxon is closer to Iranian than to every other Germanic dialect or language, I am not the one who is not able to learn.

Archaeologists call a special type of sword sax, it a one-side sword. I think I do not need to explain what it looks like. The sax is first mentioned as semispata, as short sword, in the 11th century. The modern term was established in Archeology in the 19th century. This special weapon did not appear before the 5th century in Saxon. So it came about 150 years after the appearance of the saxones. The base of sahs is like the Latin word saxum something made from stone or a stone itself. It is a common indo-european expression. So whatever Saxon means or Saka means if both names have a common term, it isn't necessary to believe that both people share a common ethnic base. All data we have says that there is no Scythian origin at all, never ever.  
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