Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Was Shapur I overrated?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Poll Question: Very overrated
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
11 [39.29%]
1 [3.57%]
0 [0.00%]
1 [3.57%]
15 [53.57%]
You can not vote in this poll

Author
ArmenianSurvival View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460
  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Was Shapur I overrated?
    Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 20:14

Originally posted by Imperatore Dario I

Are the Turks closer than the Italians? I'm not saying that genetically Italy is pure and from the Romans but you've gotta understand that the original Ottomans are not the Turks of today. The ones that destroyed the Roman Empire by capturing Constantinople in 1453. They were a nomadic, Asiatic Mongoloid (not in the offensive term) race. But during the centuries of the Ottoman Empire, Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, Italians (left over from the Venetian commercial influence), and Persians all mixed in to the original Turkic blood. I've even read an article on a Turkish man himself telling on how mixed in the Ottoman Empire actually was. It was mostly the assimilation and interbreeding that kept it Turkish looking.

The Ottomans arent the same as Turks of today? I understand what youre saying by them breeding with other nationalities such as Kurds, Greeks and Armenians... but theyre basically the same people. They still speak Turkish and follow Turkish culture just as the Ottomans did. Ive heard so many people say the Ottomans of the early 20th century are not the Turks of today....thats completely false. Obviously theyre not exactly the same people because theres a new generation, but just because theres a new generation of a culture doesnt mean they dont belong in the same category as the previous generation or their ancestors. Theyre still Turks and so were the Ottomans. When you said you read an article about a man talking about how mixed the Ottoman Empire really was, it might have been misunderstood as there were many minorities within the empire, not that the Turks were assimilated. If anything, the minorities of the empire became assimilated. A lot of cleansing happened towards the end of Ottoman reign though. Youre right about the Turks being mixed, but they were in no way, shape or form assimilated. The minorities they mixed with were assimilated.

Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։
Back to Top
Imperatore Dario I View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Italy
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 204
  Quote Imperatore Dario I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2004 at 19:56
Well how was I supposed to know about the accuracy of the author?

Let there be a race of Romans with the strength of Italian courage.- Virgil's Aeneid
Back to Top
warhead View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760
  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2004 at 15:43

"The Parthians settled many of their captives in their Eastern territory of Sogdia. In an interesting footnote, Sogdia was later captured by the Han Chinese and so these Romans may have been amongst the first to meet the Chinese - not much of a consolation for living the rest of your life amongst foreigners. "

 

 

Thats wrong, it was the xiongnu not the Parthians that occupied Sogdiana, that author's knowledge of primary source is pretty poor.

Back to Top
Imperatore Dario I View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Italy
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 204
  Quote Imperatore Dario I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 18:39

@Warhead

http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/battles/carrhae.html

 

@Elteber

That wasn't really a contradiction.  The way the Ottoman government tried to keep its people Turkish was by mass interbreeding.


Let there be a race of Romans with the strength of Italian courage.- Virgil's Aeneid
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2004 at 00:02

Originally posted by Imperatore Dario I

..the original Ottomans are not the Turks of today. The ones that destroyed the Roman Empire by capturing Constantinople in 1453. They were a nomadic, Asiatic Mongoloid (not in the offensive term) race. But during the centuries of the Ottoman Empire, Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, Italians (left over from the Venetian commercial influence), and Persians all mixed in to the original Turkic blood. I've even read an article on a Turkish man himself telling on how mixed in the Ottoman Empire actually was. It was mostly the assimilation and interbreeding that kept it Turkish looking.

You contradict yourself. On one hand, you said turks are not the same as they were originally. On other hand, you said assimilation and interbreeding kept them Turkish looking.

Logically, your statement means Turks are still mongoloids. Or I just didn't understand what you meant by the phrase "Turkish looking". And how assimilation of people of Balkans, Middle East and Caucasia could have preserved Turks? That's genetically impossible.

As far as Romans and modern Italians concerned, my personal opinion is simple. Italians are undoubtedly related to Romans. To what degree? I guess nobody really knows it. Nevertheless, Romans didn't disappear from the face of the earth like ETs and UFOs do in the movies. Definitely, they left genetical imprint on modern people living in Italy and around in Mediterrenian.

 



Edited by Elteber
Back to Top
warhead View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760
  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 23:37

"As Crassus and his soldiers trudged toward the general, the Parthians whipped around the Romans and slaughtered them, killing 20,000, and enlisting the aid of Chinese troops to capture Sogdia."

 

Show me the source when the Parthians ever captured sogdiana during this time.

Back to Top
Imperatore Dario I View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Italy
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 204
  Quote Imperatore Dario I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 18:37
OK, daddy!

Let there be a race of Romans with the strength of Italian courage.- Virgil's Aeneid
Back to Top
Dari View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 205
  Quote Dari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 16:21
Alright boys and girls, cut it out.


Dari is a pimp master
Back to Top
Imperatore Dario I View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Italy
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 204
  Quote Imperatore Dario I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 15:25

Originally posted by jamshidi_f

So you believe that refering to me as an "ignorant IDIOT" is no disrespecting?

 

Oh, you mean in the OTHER thread? Oh please, don't flatter yourself. 


Let there be a race of Romans with the strength of Italian courage.- Virgil's Aeneid
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 15:32
So you believe that refering to me as an "ignorant IDIOT" is no disrespecting?
Back to Top
Imperatore Dario I View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Italy
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 204
  Quote Imperatore Dario I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 12:14

I did not want to disrespect you and the Romans until you made me to. We are giving our Ideas. Any of us could be wrong. I do respect everyone and their thoughts and we are here to discuss things not to stand against each other.We could both be wrong but I disagree with disrespecting. I do not say you are wrong about Romans but this could be wrong and what I say could be right. After all History can not be trusted cause Historians opinion could affect it.
WE SHOULD NOT BE SO DOGMATIC imperatoredarioI.

 

I MADE you to  "disrespect" the Romans and I? I haven't disrespected you at all, nor anyone else on this thread or on this forum. Me saying that you were ignorant on some historical facts is not a slander, or an act of disrespect. Being "ignorant" simply means that you are unaware, unimformed, or uneducated on something, in this case, on the fact about the Roman-Persian conflicts. Also, how am I dogmatic? Do you have any idea what the word even means? It's an arrogant assertion of unproved or unprovable principles, and I have showed no dogma. Don't say that I've "made" you disrespect me because I do not force anyone to do anything, and that includes you as well.

This dario guy is so disrespectful jamshidi_f, I do not understand why does he love the romans so much??????????

I have not been disrespectful at all, and I am challenging you to prove where I have been disrespectful. And why shouldn't I love the Romans? Tell me, why do you love the Persians so much?

 

Who is this idiot Imperator Dario?????????????
What is he saying. We invaded rome like easy. Romans were nothing but americans and british make them gigantic to ignore the german race

Boy, isn't it fun to see the pot calling the kettle black? You invaded Rome "like easy"? Invading any country is EASY, the hard part comes when you intend on controlling the territory you have captured from your opponent, which was most certainly NOT easy for the Sassanians or Parthians to do at all. And stop attacking the Romans, I've just been trying to make one point, that militarily, Shapur I is overrated. Maybe if you've read the original message you wouldn't have put yourself into a trap? Rome has launched offensives into Persia aswell, so maybe you shouldn't trick yourself into thinking that it was "easy" to attack the Romans, because, in the end, the wars with Rome caused the collapse of both the Parthian dynasty and the Sassanian dynasty of the Persian Empire (as in, the financial cost left them vulnverable to foreign invasion).

@Sab

The Ottoman Empire survived into the early 20th century. There are people still alive from when it was still around. Now I don't know if you want to call Turkey "the same thing" when it's a secular, somewhat democratic successor state, but they have much closer chronological links than Italians and the Roman Empire. And putting aside that all those people's were part of the Ottoman Empire anyway, I would think you mgiht lose a genetic comparison as well (though granted I'm too lazy to look up information on that area today).

Are the Turks closer than the Italians? I'm not saying that genetically Italy is pure and from the Romans but you've gotta understand that the original Ottomans are not the Turks of today. The ones that destroyed the Roman Empire by capturing Constantinople in 1453. They were a nomadic, Asiatic Mongoloid (not in the offensive term) race. But during the centuries of the Ottoman Empire, Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, Italians (left over from the Venetian commercial influence), and Persians all mixed in to the original Turkic blood. I've even read an article on a Turkish man himself telling on how mixed in the Ottoman Empire actually was. It was mostly the assimilation and interbreeding that kept it Turkish looking.


Let there be a race of Romans with the strength of Italian courage.- Virgil's Aeneid
Back to Top
Sabzevarian View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 10-Aug-2004
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 53
  Quote Sabzevarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 11:47

Wait a minute, you tell me  that Rome and Italy aren't related, when it's the exact same thing for the Ottoman Empire? BELIEVE IT OR NOT BUT OTTOMAN EMPIRE AND TURKEY ARE NOT THE SAME. Let's see, the Turks are mixed with 12 millions Kurds, and still have mixtures from Greeks, Bulgarians, Romanians, Russians, Arabs, Armenians, and you talk about us?

The Ottoman Empire survived into the early 20th century. There are people still alive from when it was still around. Now I don't know if you want to call Turkey "the same thing" when it's a secular, somewhat democratic successor state, but they have much closer chronological links than Italians and the Roman Empire. And putting aside that all those people's were part of the Ottoman Empire anyway, I would think you mgiht lose a genetic comparison as well (though granted I'm too lazy to look up information on that area today).

Back to Top
Dari View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 205
  Quote Dari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 11:04
I think Jam has some personality disorders...


Dari is a pimp master
Back to Top
Rebelsoul View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 73
  Quote Rebelsoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 05:02

Cyrus, I love your sense of irony

Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240
  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 04:43
Jamshidi_f, please say to your Armenian and German friends in North Vancouver that don't insult our members!
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 17:30
Who is this idiot Imperator Dario?????????????
What is he saying. We invaded rome like easy. Romans were nothing but americans and british make them gigantic to ignore the german race
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 17:20
This dario guy is so disrespectful jamshidi_f, I do not understand why does he love the romans so much??????????
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 17:12
I did not want to disrespect you and the Romans until you made me to. We are giving our Ideas. Any of us could be wrong. I do respect everyone and their thoughts and we are here to discuss things not to stand against each other.We could both be wrong but I disagree with disrespecting. I do not say you are wrong about Romans but this could be wrong and what I say could be right. After all History can not be trusted cause Historians opinion could affect it.
WE SHOULD NOT BE SO DOGMATIC imperatoredarioI.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 17:04
Do you have any sources of what Shapur said in PAHLAVI. What you have read is the saying of historians who by just looking at Naghsh-e-rustam indicate that Shapur has declared to have beaten the entire roman army. But this is not true. I have told you what Birouni says in AlMAFATIHEL KETABAT which was written about 1000 ago and is probably more true than what you have read(cause it was closer in time to the events) In addition many writers take the side of the romans and make them errorless while we must not forget they liked spilling blood and making slaves and did not do anything about human rights. In history Persians and Greeks have a higher position from my point of view because they helped the race of human being in standing against slavery.(what romans enjoyed, they liked Blood)
Back to Top
Imperatore Dario I View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Italy
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 204
  Quote Imperatore Dario I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 16:36

Originally posted by jamshidi_f

First where have you read anything about what Shapur has ever indicated?
Secondly after the defeat of rome by Sassanians Armenia became part of Persia and Romans paid money to the Sassanians(Although for very few years) so that they would not continiue. Secondly, noone took anything from Ctesiphon. If Ashkanians(Parthians) were defeated by Sassanians the reason is that Ardeshir(first sassanian) indicated that he is from royal race of Achaemenians and people liked them more than the parthioans. Moreover they made myths about Ardeshir and people believed them. Why do you think the sassanians were reach from the time of invading Ctesiphon??????????
Then again, none of the sassanian kings has ever indicated anything about battles or victories. The only thing is NAGHSH-E-RUSTAM where the emperor of Rome is shown kneeling in front of Shapur's horse(while he is on the back of it). This seen was probably true.

You're showing ignorance of both facts and history! I've read about Shapur I not only in an article called Rome's Persian Mirage, but also on books of the Roman Empire. Shapur said it, it was to glorify himself to the Persian population. And what are you talking about? Rome clinged on to Armenia. Shapur was first defeated by Emperor Gordian III, who was later assassinated by Phillip the Arab (however, Shapur himself tells that Gordian fell in battle). Phillip, since he just siezed the throne, asked Shapur for peace, and all his territories were restored (I think). However, Shapur attacked again, under Emperor Valerain, who was captured while having successes against Shapur. But in the end, Shapur was crushed by the Roman army and Rome's Eastern frontier was safe.

Noone took anything from Ctesiphon? I've already mentioned that during wars with Parthia, Ctesiphon was conquered, which financially bankrupted the Parthian economy, leaving it vulnerable from Sassanian revolt. And yes, Roman troops have conquered Ctesiphon from the Sassanian Empire as well. And once again, Shapur I has said that his forces captured Hastra, which has been determined to be false.  Sorry, but what I'm saying is true.


Let there be a race of Romans with the strength of Italian courage.- Virgil's Aeneid
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.