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Founder of the Chin(Jurched) Dynasty descended from Silla noble?

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  Quote mongke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Founder of the Chin(Jurched) Dynasty descended from Silla noble?
    Posted: 10-Dec-2004 at 20:22
I just read a chapter  from the book Imperial Nomad published by Penn State publishing. The book states that it was though that Akita the leader of the Jurched rebellion against the Khitan was descended from a Silla noble man. Is there any validity to this??
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2004 at 20:38
Is this referring to Nurachi supposedly meaning "Lovingly remembers Shinla?"
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  Quote mongke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2004 at 23:05
No, but could you tell me what you mean?
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2004 at 23:24
Umm...some korean nationalist say (Falsely in my opinon) that Nurachi was a Korean because supposedly his name means "Loveingly remembers Shilla" which is a bunch of BS...what are you talking about?
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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2004 at 15:34

"Umm...some korean nationalist say (Falsely in my opinon) that Nurachi was a Korean because supposedly his name means "Loveingly remembers Shilla" which is a bunch of BS...what are you talking about? "

 

Ai Xin Jue Luo isn't even a name created by Nurhaci, it was Huang Tai Ji that did after he changed the tribes name from Jurchen to Manchu. Before that Nurhaci had the Han name of Tong. If these nationalist want to make baseless nationalistic assumptions about their names they should at least get the history right.

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2004 at 16:36
Originally posted by warhead

"Umm...some korean nationalist say (Falsely in my opinon) that Nurachi was a Korean because supposedly his name means "Loveingly remembers Shilla" which is a bunch of BS...what are you talking about? "

 

Ai Xin Jue Luo isn't even a name created by Nurhaci, it was Huang Tai Ji that did after he changed the tribes name from Jurchen to Manchu. Before that Nurhaci had the Han name of Tong. If these nationalist want to make baseless nationalistic assumptions about their names they should at least get the history right.



Agreed for all Nationalists.  What you said is very true.  People go on spouting lies and shame their countries.  BTW Mongke...are you perhaps talking about Barhae(Bohai)?


Edited by Gubukjanggoon
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  Quote mongke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2004 at 21:05

I'm not taking about Pohai (or Parhae in Korean).

This book that I was reading did not sound nationalistic at all. I was wondering if the fact that the founder of the Chin Empire was actually descended from a Silla nobleman. Silla fell around 935AD Chin rebellion against the Khitans started around 1114AD.

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2004 at 21:14
Hmm so you're reffering the the Jin dynasty...whos symbol means gold or metal righte?  金.  Hmm I've never heard of this theory before.  Could you please state the book's name/author and elaborate more on this?
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  Quote mongke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 07:19

Imperial Nomads by Luc Kwanten published publisher is University of Pennsylvania press

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0812277503/qid =1102856983/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-4521050-4276868?v=glance&a mp;s=books

This is stated within the first few chapters of the book.

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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2004 at 12:01
I'm just going to ask one thing, and thats where was it stated in the primary sources of the past, if its not there, the theory is taken as much as a grain of salt.
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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2004 at 17:46

Is this referring to Nurachi supposedly meaning "Lovingly remembers Shinla?"

He's referring to wanan Agolta ( ), founder of Jin Dynasty, what Koreans call Gau-ran/Yau Jin.  And he , according to Korean sources, IS a Korean

According to some historians, Agolta was Shilla's last King, Ma-yi Teja's son.  Reasons?  Start with the name "Jin".  It means gold.  Now Shilla King's last name was Kim (it was Park from the founder Park Hyok Gu Sae but after unification it was replaced with the kim family).  What a coincidence. 

"Wanan" was called to Shilla Kings.  Same with Jin Dynastly's kings.  Wow.  nice coincidence

Also, there was an incidence where Jin wanted a pact with Korea, giving hundreds of camels as a gift.  THe King of Koryo, not wanting a pact with so called "barbarians", starved them to death. But we see that these Jin people are un usually kind to Koryo people.  Why would that be so?

This excerpt was written in Kubliai khan's reigime(), there is a written book() about Jin dynasty ().  It goes like:

(ȡ Ѻ1, Ѻ)

Founder of Jin is Hweega Hambo(Chinese pronounciation of wanan Agolta), and he first came from Koryo

---

Hong Ho, known diplomat who was sent in year 1129 to exchange the captured Song Emperor HumJong(), has written a history book in his book, Song Mak Ki Moon (خڤ).  Its excerpt:

Ҭ

Yau Jin's founder is Shilla origin, with the surname Wanan, Wanan is the same stuff as Hanun's King. {remember that Wanan was called to SHilla kings-Hanun is split as Han and Un, Han referrign to Koreans}


---

Kubliai Khan's country(I say this because I don't remember what the dynasty's name was ) had a bright intellect by the name U moon Mu So (), who wrote the cultures and traditions of Jin in the book Gum-Ji().  An excerpt goes like:

The first cheif was a Shilla, called Wanan, and wanan is the same thing as Hanun's king.

---

The previous excerpts were all from Kubliai Khan's country (uhh...was it wang dynasty or won dynasty????can't remember still), non Korean source.

----

Excerpt from Manchu-origin-writing(ػ׵) from Qing () Kwon Rung year 43 1778 via Hwang Myong٤

ݣ[] [Ҭ ܬ]

Jin's origin is Hweega Hapbu (before it was said hambo) and he first arrived from Koryo.  (watching two sources Tongo and DeGumGukJi, they all arrived conclusion that he came from Shilla, its king with the last name Wanan.  BTW, shlla and Koryo has got its land mixed up and thus Jin and Yau just randomly use the countires name- same stuff)

---

Kum Sa(), THE OFFICIAL HISTORY EXCERPT FROM JIN DYNSTY, starts out with these excerpts:

ڨ ڨ ͯ 慎 ڨ ݻ ݻ 咄 ݻ ݻ ݻ ݻ ݻ ߣ ݻ ݻ 並 ݻ ڤ ݾ ٿ ߣ 為 ί ݤ ݤ ׿ 慎 ޵ ݾ ܲ ؿ ݤ ݻ 為Դ Խ Դ Խ ٣ 強 絕 ӡ ݾ ӡ ӡ ҳ ӡ ҳ ҳ ˰ ߣ ˰ ף ˰ ߣ Ҵ ׿ ͯ ׺ Լ 顏 ݻ

Since its too longs, I'll abridge the passage.  It starts out saying Jin's ancestors originated from Malgal.  That Malgal was part of Koguryo.  ~condensed~ Jin's founder is named Hambo, and he came from Koryo, at age over 60. His brother Agohobul stayed in Koryo and it was said that though their sons shall meet he will not go.  He lived with brother BoHwali.  The founder of Jin lived in Wananbu Bokgansu while Bohwali lived in Yarwe.

---

Due to time constraint, I'll post Korean sources later.  Hope this adds pepper, warhead

Grrr..
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  Quote battleaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2004 at 21:25
[QUOTE=demon]

He's referring to wanan Agolta ( ), founder of Jin Dynasty, what Koreans call Gau-ran/Yau Jin. 

Gauran and Yeojin are different people....the first are Khitan Mongols, the second Jurchen Manchus. the jin dynasty i believe was jurchen, and the liao dynasty was mongol.

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2004 at 01:21
Hmm...So confused...I do know that there was a Korean Jin state that later gave rise to the Samhan and that Barhae's origional name was Jin...different characters though...perhaps?

Edited by Gubukjanggoon
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2004 at 04:09
Originally posted by Gubukjanggoon


Hmm...So confused...I do know that there was a Korean Jin state that
later gave rise to the Samhan and that Barhae's origional name was
Jin...different characters though...perhaps?


The pre-Samhan Jin was 辰 (early morning in ancient chinese) while Barhae's was 震 (shake in chinese) while the Jurchen Jin was 金.
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  Quote cliveersknell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2004 at 22:36
The Jin or Jurchens were never part of Silla or Koguryo.
They threatened the Silla, Parhae, and Koguryo dynasties
the same way they threatened the Song dynasty.
The Jurchens originated from the amur valley , they are
distantly related to the mongols and Kidanians, for they all came from the same root, the Xianbei tribe.

Clive
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2005 at 09:35
Originally posted by cliveersknell

The Jin or Jurchens were never part of Silla or Koguryo.
They threatened the Silla, Parhae, and Koguryo dynasties
the same way they threatened the Song dynasty.
The Jurchens originated from the amur valley , they are
distantly related to the mongols and Kidanians, for they all came from the same root, the Xianbei tribe.

Clive


The Jin (jurchens) were founded around 1115 c.e. and never encountered Shinla, Koguryo, or Barhae...they did have a bit of fun with Koryo though...if I am correct.
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  Quote babyblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2005 at 12:59
     the Jin's were semi-barbarians...if it were founded by koreans...that'll be a major down-grade
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  Quote mongke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2005 at 18:29
Silla collapsed on 935AD how can the founder of the Jin be related to the last king of Silla?
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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2005 at 06:49

The Jin or Jurchens were never part of Silla or Koguryo.
They threatened the Silla, Parhae, and Koguryo dynasties
the same way they threatened the Song dynasty.

NO

Though you can argue that Jin was a different entity from Koryo(by that time Korea was united by shilla but then a rebellion lead by Wang Kon toppeled the country into Koryo), they did NOT thread Koryo the same way as Song. 

FE, Jurchens considered Koryo as their BROTHER, ask them to GET AWAY FROM SONG.  That's because Jin considered themselves "Sons of Koguryo".  It's logical because their tribe was part of Koguryo- in manchu.  However, Koryo did NOT like Jin because they toppeled Barhe(Bohei), another Korean estate.  As a proof, in Hunyo 10, written by the founder of Koryo, which is like a constitution, included the phrase that condemned Jin, calling it animal and stuff.

So when Jin gave 50 camels as a present for peace(Ask yourself- Why did they?  Why not to Song?).  But Koryo exiled the embassador who brought the camels, and starved them to death.

And thus Jin and Koryo fought on.  Meanwhile, Song conquered most of China.  Seeing them as allies(like Song was the "new" Tang) against Jin, Koryo set alliance with Song.  Of course, Jin did not like it.  THey wanted peace with Koryo so they can relax and eat up Song.  But if Koryo allied with Song, Koryo could attack Jin at their back.  So Jin decided to attack Koryo, not because they didn't like them, because they HAD TO.

In conclusion, Jin wanted Sympathy from Koryo since the beginning, not like Song. 

-------------------------

Another interesting fact comes at a diplomatic success from Koryo.  There was a diplomat named Seo Hee(, 942~998).  He was sent to Song to set alliance stance with song, in the year 982.  However, at the same time, the Jurchens condemned them, and decided to attack(They used the incident 25 years ago to justify their invasion- the starving of 50 camels and the exile of the embassador).  WIth 800,000 men.  And they set up a camp, crossing the Yalu river, into Bong Sang (year 993). 

When all Koryo consels were scared, and were thinking about giving them land so they move out, Seo Hee came up to the King, and strongly condemned the tribute, because of his belief that "it's wrong to easily give in the land conquered by ancestor's blood".  Many agreed with him.  And then the imperial court was under heavy discussion. 

Meanwhile, the Koryo forces defeated the Jurchens at An Yong Jin.  Because of the crooked, ruggy slope that limited cavarly speed, as well as the introduction of blade-wagons(wagons with lots of pike at front, covered by shield).   Chaos ran over the Jin camp.  They did not know what to do next.  

Using that victory to advantage, Seo Hee decided to enter the enemy lines alone, and set up a treaty with the general. 

Seo Hee asked: "We have not commited any acts of condemnation to you.  Why are you invading Koryo?"

The General replied: " 2 reasons.  One, We are sons of Koguryo, and its land, ours.  But Koryo is on the land.  We came here to regain it.  Two, Koryo has set alliance to Song, and discrimiate us like barbarians.  Our reasoning is to change that stance by this invasion.

Seo Hee answered: We changed our name from Hu(meaning after)-Koguryo to Koryo.  We have also set our capital city to Pyongyang,  just like Koguryo.  Just by looking at the name, we can see who deserves the dish.  Also, we never had insulted nor ignored any border nations, ever.  We have set alliance with Song, to accept advanced materials.  If your people wants to so, we can set alliance with you as well.  However, it is the YeoJin who stands between us. 

-By this point, the general was convinced-

-he sent the same argument to the king, and he asked to retreat-

-On the way back, some horses and camels were given as a gift. -

The story ends up with Seo Hee defeating the Yeo Jins and building 6 forts along Yalu.  These forts are known as Gang Dong 6 Ju. 

Silla collapsed on 935AD how can the founder of the Jin be related to the last king of Silla?

[]
" Ҵ"

[history of Jin]

Founder of Jin is called Hambo(sinofied version of Agolta), he came from Koryo, and he's in his 60's.

Also, the last king of Shilla, Ma yi Teja, was on his 20's.  The word Teja(son of King) explains it. 

 



Edited by demon
Grrr..
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2005 at 10:00
Actually Demon Barhae was toppled by the Khitan...not the Jurchens.
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