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Greco-Roman vs. Han Chinese Extant Architecture

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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Greco-Roman vs. Han Chinese Extant Architecture
    Posted: 02-Oct-2006 at 15:51
you see, the chinese building structure is mainly based on paralell, for example, when you divide the Forbidden city vertically(from not to south) it is not surprise to find that both side are reflections to each other.

Edited by Siege Tower - 03-Oct-2006 at 08:00
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 02:58
Hah, this is a funny entry of mine. My name on Chinahistoryforum is Non-Han-Nan-Ban, btw.
 
 
Original from CHF:
 
IPB Image greeting.gif Why cheerio, General Zhaoyun and Chen06, good ole chaps!
Have mercy on the Queen, what odd indigenous names you two natives have! Mr. Zhaoyun, if you could, I would prefer to call you Chief Joe Young of the great Chinese tribe, and Chen, if I simply called you Ben06. Ho-ho! Jolly good then, it's settled! Chief Joe Young and his fellow villager Ben06 it is!

This is Arthur Steelwell here, proprietor and chief investor of Steelwell Limited of England, and I've always wondered about where this China place is on a map of the globe, and behold! This site here helped me right away with finding that sort of rarity! Excuse me for a moment, would you...

(Sips on my tea, and from an ivory-carved tea cup from the elephant I shot down in that Safari trip I took with my brother Benjamin Steelwell, Lord of Huxleburry Lordshaft, when we took my private jet to Sub-Saharan Africa last winter...anyways)...

Are there elephants in this China place, perhaps? Such magnificent beasts to have in your sight, let alone your scope-sight, let me tell you good boy! Ho-ho! In any case, I am most surprised at these luxurious pictures you've posted Lychee, mind if I call you Larry?

(Adjusts my tobacco pipe and raises my brow) ...and I had always thought this is what homes in that far distant jungle place of China supposedly looked like...

IPB Image

Jolly-ho! I'll see you all again, once I'm done arguing with the misses after a couple shots of brandy, a martini, a beer-bong of fine Batard-Montrachet Romonet-Prudhon Chardonnay, and maybe a couple hits of crack-cocaine. My word is most definitely bond, homes! (I picked up some urban slang in America from the indigenous African peoples living there)

(wife yells in the background)

Coming dear! Well chaps, I'll discuss this more later! Time to do some heavy drinking...

(Hah. I'm funny.
Eric)
 
IPB Image

Well greetings and cheerio to you, Soka Norman! Mind if I call you Sylvia Norman the Conqueror? Ho-ho! Jolly good then, Sylvia Norman!

(^^^Puts out tobacco pipe to lift glass and sip some Cumbrae Castle Scotch on the rocks...)

I would say India no doubt! Since it was once an uncivilized tribal wasteland annexed by the glory of the British Empire! I should know, I hunt elephants there every spring after my winter trip from Africa. Always a great safari when my brother Benjamin Steelwell, Lord of Huxleburry Lordshaft, accompanies! Hip-hip, cheery ho!

Oh, how daft of me! I'm Arthur Steelwell, CEO and chief member of our Board at Steelwell Limited. We make steel and more steel, something that I understand was invented by we British!

In any case, I've recently discovered where this China is on the global map, since I've heard of this China place before, run by a certain tribal chief, General_Zhaoyun, Chief Joe Young as I prefer to address him! Cheery-ho! This land of yours is quite far away from merry ole London town where I hail, the heart of Britain. Tell me, native people, where I could find my way around this jungle known as China? I will pay 15 British pounds to each one who acts as my tour guide and holds my umbrella amidst your nomadic jungle of China, and if you work very hard, I suppose 30 pounds a month is in order. Most of all I wish to see your land if it is full of elephants, no doubt! Elephants with tusks for me to turn into more ivory shot glasses and ivory toothbrushes, and a very long, shaft-ribbed cylinder-shaped carved ivory piece for my wife, Shelby Steelwell. I wonder why she likes those so much? Jolly good!

I have no doubts that since India is filled with the riches of the British Empire, that this tribal confederation known as China Land has little to rival with! Ho-ho!

Good day, young natives!

(Hah.
Eric)
 
 


Edited by Preobrazhenskoe - 03-Oct-2006 at 04:25
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 04:19
@ Arthur Steelwell...
 
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Is this guy serious? LOL
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 08:02
holy, he cant be serious
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  Quote dick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 13:42
Originally posted by BigL

No he said that they had a similiar standard of living,Adshead argument was based on the romans having more miles of roads and the mediteranean ocean as lanes for Superior communication.
 
Nope, he said China had a greater output per capita because of millet and because of the greater quantity of canals present, while Rome might have greater consumption because of its lavishness and better communication. But the latter part is still disputed, Needham(which Adshead drawn his information from)for example considered Chinese integration to be comparible to Roman ones, he considered the better developed Canal system of China just as efficient as the advantage of the medditeranean ocean. Adshead said these canals are more for irrigation than transportation, but thats not supported by evidence at all because the Shi Ji clearly mentioned that the reason the Lin qu canal was built was to transport grain to support the military campaign against the Bai Yue. Moreover, Adshead also neglected physcial technology that helps support communication, technology such as wheel barrow(invented in 1st century B.C.), breast collar, and dish wheels.


Edited by dick - 03-Oct-2006 at 13:43
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 17:48
 
Central watchtower, architectural model, Eastern Han dynasty (25220), 1stearly 3rd century
China
Earthenware with green lead glaze
Height of 41 in. (104.1 cm)
 
 
Another set of ancient green-glazed earthenware towers from the Eastern Han Dynasty, 1st-2nd century AD
 
 
Tomb panel with relief of figures in a pavilion, Eastern Han dynasty (25220), early 2nd century
Shandong Province, China
Limestone; H. 31 1/4 in. (79.4 cm), W. 50 in. (127 cm)
More examples to add to non-existent Chinese wooden architecture by ancient model representation,
 
EDIT POST: I found this cool pic to exemplify what others have said about the Chinese placing stones over rammed earth fortification, this pic below being part of the Great Wall in Shaanxi Province.
 
Another view of the East Gate with someone intent at work on the masonary of a rectangular fence in the foreground.
 
With the old ruins of the Nanjing stone citadel I posted earlier with Yun's comments, compare the old citadel with Ming Dynasty era fortress citadels at Zhen Bei Tai, Shaanxi Province...
 
Here stands the citadel of Zhen Bei Tai. It is a relic from the Ming Dynasty (1368 - 1644).
Well preserved citadel of Zhen Bei Tai makes you wonder who gets charged on its annual maintenance bill.
 
Eric


Edited by Preobrazhenskoe - 05-Oct-2006 at 13:50
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  Quote Omnipotence Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 18:11
Lol, what's the guy on the top of the roof doing?
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 19:57
I'm not sure, Omnipotence, but my first guess would be that he's trying to seduce those two Chinese phoenixes with his hypnotic roof dancing so that he can get them into bed for some freaky three-way action.
 
(Porn music cue) Chica-chica-wa-wa.
 
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 01:47
Originally posted by dick

Originally posted by BigL

No he said that they had a similiar standard of living,Adshead argument was based on the romans having more miles of roads and the mediteranean ocean as lanes for Superior communication.
 
Nope, he said China had a greater output per capita because of millet and because of the greater quantity of canals present, while Rome might have greater consumption because of its lavishness and better communication. But the latter part is still disputed, Needham(which Adshead drawn his information from)for example considered Chinese integration to be comparible to Roman ones, he considered the better developed Canal system of China just as efficient as the advantage of the medditeranean ocean. Adshead said these canals are more for irrigation than transportation, but thats not supported by evidence at all because the Shi Ji clearly mentioned that the reason the Lin qu canal was built was to transport grain to support the military campaign against the Bai Yue. Moreover, Adshead also neglected physcial technology that helps support communication, technology such as wheel barrow(invented in 1st century B.C.), breast collar, and dish wheels.
 
Whats Dish Wheels.And why would rome have better lavishness, there lavaratorys?
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 04:06
 
When the Qin emperor unified already existing city states great walls after the unificaton of china, there were States in central china with walls surrounding the entire state.It has already been shown that the 'Simple Rammed earth" affair is on par or even better than Stone.Its not simple mudbrick,in fact its much harder to make than placing stones in place.Hours of work to raise the wall 1cm it takes!
Its effectiveness has been proven when the Japanese modern artillery shells had a hard time destroying ancient walls.
Depending on the availability of local stones it was sometimes easier to make stone walls
IPB Image
 
Or in the desert where there was no good earth to make
IPB Image
 
Though much of this first QIn/HAn Great Wall has disappeared as a result of centuries of natural and artificial damage, it can be seen fromwhat remains of it that the wall was built with a variety of materials: compressed earth on the plains and loess plateaus, sand in the desert and stones in the mountainous areas. The ruins of the second wall in the Daqingshan Mountains of inner Mongolia are 3.5metres wide at the base and one to twometres high. The section near Guyuan in Ningxia is in better condition. The average height of existing walls built in the Qin period ranges from two to ten metres, and insome places they are as high as fifteen metres. Small castles and beacon towers built of earth stand in large numbers along the walls. The castles were barracks for the garrison troops, while a few larger castles with perimeters of more than three kilometres served as command posts. The beacon towers, all standing on the inner side of the wall, are eight to ten metres high, mostly built of earth, a few of them of stones.
 
In Total more than 10,000 km of Wall were made by the Han dynasty ! thats more than the Ming Great wall.Also theres no reason to suggest that the rammed earth wasnt covered in Stone slabs(like chinese rammed earth is) to prevent Erosion if you like the Aesthetic look of stones.
 
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 04:20
A beacon tower on the Han Great Wall ruins
 
 
 
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 04:22
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 04:24
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 07:10
The bst architecture is  that of beavers.The rest are noobic buildings.Amateurs.......
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  Quote Gun Powder Ma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 08:30
Thanks, Preo, for these wonderful pics. As you already noted yourself, they belong though not to architecture which is concerned with building and constructing, but to all kinds of handicraft and metallurgy. Therefore, I am not going ot post here Greco-Roman arts and crafts to keep the thread focused.

A few questions:

1. When were roof tiles introduced in China and how widespread did they become?

2. When appeared those typical Chinese roofs (technical term: Knickdach) for the first time?

3. Are these ceramic models now watchtowers or appartment buildings?

To the Roman evidence I have still to add quarries, cisterns and dams.
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  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 10:18
Originally posted by Spartakus

The bst architecture is that of beavers.The rest are noobic buildings.Amateurs.......

    
No, I would still go with Roman. Beaver building comes and goes while the Roman still remains standing today to be admired.
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 14:48
Gun Powder Ma,
 
The first representation of Chinese tiered roofs with patterned, glazed ceramic tiles that we have are those Han Dynasty glazed-earthenware models shown above (and on the first page of this thread), although I've read in several other sites that this style was probably inherent from an earlier age, the Western Zhou, or even as far back as the Shang Dynasty. As far how 'widespread' this technique was in the Han Dynasty, written records tell of how each provincial and county seat government popularly styled their local and provincial government office buildings from the original design of the Imperial Palace at Chang'an/Luoyang. From the earthenware models above, each one displays this type of roof design, and as for the models themselves, they are all arguably guard towers or apartment buildings, keep in mind I'm no expert on this. It is well known, however, that poor/commoner Chinese in the city lived in multistory apartments since they were forced to walk down flights of stairs, the apartments at the bottom actually being less expensive to rent (completely opposite in the West, where people liked to have an upper view), whereas the rich had most often a one-story walled house complex, a front gate and a spirit gate, a central courtyard with a garden, a meeting hall, and a residence hall for living quarters right behind this. Although rich homes were typically one story, the meeting halls and residence halls of a rich home were also sometimes two-story level affairs. 
 
Someone on here once said that architecture was much more celebrated in the West than in the East, which could definitely be exemplified by the only two remaining Chinese works from the Imperial Age on architectural building: the Yingzao Fashi, or Building Standards, which was printed in 1103 AD during the Northern Song Dynasty, and the Gongbu Gongcheng Zuofa Zeli (Engineering manual for the Board of Works), which was printed in 1734. It has only been since the 1930s that a concise historiography of Chinese architecture has been existent. All of this can be explained by traditional Chinese culture, where the architectural profession in earlier times was not esteemed as one of the greater fine arts by the aristocrats, which was painting, zither (qin) musical playing, writing and reciting poetry, and writing sound calligraphy. Architects and craftsmen in ancient, medieval, and Early Modern Age China simply passed down their skills of building to the next generation, and the craftsmen were not only responsible with the building itself, but also the maintenance involved as well. However, all dynasties after the ancient Han Dynasty pretty much used the inherent skills of architecture from that era to build their own planned cities, city walls, towers, and gates, provincial and local city palaces based on the design of the Imperial Palace, mausoleums, monasteries, Buddhist pagoda towers, grottoes, private, royal, and public gardens, government offices, folk public buildings, one level and multistory pavilions, residential houses, bridges, etc.
 
Eric


Edited by Preobrazhenskoe - 05-Oct-2006 at 15:18
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  Quote Gun Powder Ma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 11:33
Originally posted by Preobrazhenskoe

 It is well known, however, that poor/commoner Chinese in the city lived in multistory apartments...
 
Which I find curious since traditional Chinese architecture made no use of arches or vaults. And bricks walls, if there were any, had no static supporting role, but simply a separating function. Which means that the skeleton of Chinese multi-story houses must have been almost completely out of wood. But how high and strong can you build a normal house out of wood...? Are there any Han and Tang houses extant? Perhaps you can post some pics from Ming houses to get a better idea of Chinese urban dwellings.
 
 
Originally posted by Preobrazhenskoe

Someone on here once said that architecture was much more celebrated in the West than in the East, ...
 
I think architecture is not simply another form of art, it is a highly utilitarian thing which really can facilitate life. It is no question of art whether you live in a house with walls of fired bricks, blazed roof tiles, running water in the basement, central heating and double glazed windows - or not. It is a question of living standards.
 
 
Originally posted by Preobrazhenskoe

However, all dynasties after the ancient Han Dynasty pretty much used the inherent skills of architecture from that era to build their own planned cities, city walls, towers, and gates, provincial and local city palaces based on the design of the Imperial Palace, mausoleums, monasteries, Buddhist pagoda towers, grottoes, private, royal, and public gardens, government offices, folk public buildings, one level and multistory pavilions, residential houses, bridges, etc....
 
Read just yesterday a renowned travel guide on China and they said exactly the opposite. Ancient Chinese cities never developed the kind of complex infrastructure without which Western or Islamic cities are unthinkable.
 
The duality of Emperor and citizen - with nothing in between - was also reflected in the meek infrastructure of Chinese cities. No citizens and no concept of citizenship or self-government meant in terms of urban architecture lesser public buildings, less crystallisation points for urban living. Add to that the perishability of traditional wood based East Asian architecture and we know why Chinese cities - as far as architecture is concerned, not people! - do not have the same aura as Indian, Muslim or Western cities.
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 18:08
But how high and strong can you build a normal house out of wood...?
 
The tallest wooden (not stone or brick like others) Buddhist pagoda in China, dated to 1056 AD during the Northern Song Dynasty, may exemplify this, standing at 67.31 meters in height, the Sakyamuni, or Yingxian Wooden Pagoda seen below:
 
 
I don't think there are any Han Dynasty wooden houses left in existence, since timber rots and is easily burned over the years. The oldest wooden buildings left standing in China are a select few wooden temples from the early Tang Dynasty in the 7th century. Other than that, the oldest surviving brick-and-stone buildings are dated to the Sui Dynasty in the late 6th century/early 7th century, I believe (although I could be wrong about the stone and brick buildings, some perhaps older than Sui).
 
Originally posted by Gun Powder Ma

Perhaps you can post some pics from Ming houses to get a better idea of Chinese urban dwellings.
 
Sure thing. Although Beijing and Nanjing remain prime examples of architecture during the Ming period (1368-1644), there are some other notable towns as well, like Lijiang (built first during the Northern Song period, many buildings dating back to the Ming), Pingyao (established during the Western Zhou, but the oldest buildings are from the Ming period), and others.
 
 
This is an old Ming Dynasty mansion-home of the Qiao family of Pingyao City. It was even used in the movie "Raised the Red Lanterns" by Chinese director Zhangyimou, and is a good example of a wealthy family's home.
 
The roofs are characterized by the distinctive local style.
 
Some urban-street housing at Pingyao in the traditional style. Pingyao boasts some 4,000 houses and apartments that belong to the Ming and Qing periods, and more than 300 sites of ruins that belong to earlier periods such as the Yuan, Song, and Tang. 
 
 
Well-preserved walls of Pingyao, completed by 1370 AD during the Ming period
 
 
Arched Entrance at Pingyao
 
 
A street pavilion in Pingyao
 
 
Town of Lijiang, home to the Naxi ethnicity
 
 
Town of Lijiang
 
 
Center compound in the town of Lijiang
 
The duality of Emperor and citizen - with nothing in between - was also reflected in the meek infrastructure of Chinese cities. No citizens and no concept of citizenship or self-government meant in terms of urban architecture lesser public buildings, less crystallisation points for urban living. Add to that the perishability of traditional wood based East Asian architecture and we know why Chinese cities - as far as architecture is concerned, not people! - do not have the same aura as Indian, Muslim or Western cities.
 
The Chinese concept of self-governance was drafting Confucian-taught scholars through the highly competitive Imperial Exams, established first by Emperors Wen and Wu of the ancient Han Dynasty, and reestablished as of the Sui Dynasty onwards. It was a measure to ensure meritocracy, not the Nine Ranks of heredity, would ensure sound and efficient governance. In contrast, the Greek and Roman West were the hallmarks of democracy and republicanism, that was until Alexander conquered such ancient city-states as Alexandria, and later when the shaky Roman Republic gave way to rule by leading Imperators. During the feudal Middle Ages in Europe, people were heavily tied to the ruling nobles and their family estates, where society was hardly based around catering to a cushy or free-spirited life of the serfs. During this time period the Church remained largely the sole place for public congretation, with an absolute lack of any Roman ideals of entertainment or creating enormous bathhouses for public enjoyment, and so forth. Ancient Greece and Rome were hallmarks of public works and entertainment that can be likened to today, this is true, but to have this idea that the Chinese lacked an urban social life or an interest in entertainment is absurd, Gun Powder Ma, and I think you know this. 
 
Anyways, Beijing gets a lot of spotlight attention as the prime site to visit in China these days, but people often forget about the other great Ming Dynasty capital (and capital of previous dynasties), the city of Nanjing. I've seen tons of photos of how the ruins of the mid-14th century city's walls and Zhonghua Gate of Nanjing appear today, but here's a cool illustration I found of it.
 
 
As opposed to how it looks now:
 
 
Eric


Edited by Preobrazhenskoe - 09-Oct-2006 at 18:57
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  Quote Omnipotence Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 19:17
Eric, are those dressed up soldiers real people or fake? Gj with the pictures btw.
 
Too bad XiangYu burned up QinShiHuang's palace though. When XiangYu ordered to have the palace burnt, it was recorded that the building burned for 3 months before it fell to the ground.


Edited by Omnipotence - 09-Oct-2006 at 19:22
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