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Muslims and the Caste System
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Vivek Sharma View Drop Down
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Muslims and the Caste System
    Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 04:03
Originally posted by M. Nachiappan

Incidentally, I would like to ask one question:
 
According to Mamueller and others, the Vedic Aryans created caste / Varna system.
 
If that is the case, wherever, Aryans went, there should have been / should be such stratification.
 
Then , how is that only in India "caste" is talked about?


Their is a caste system everywhere. the non Indian caste systems are much more harmful than the Indian ones.
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 05:48
Originally posted by M. Nachiappan

Incidentally, I would like to ask one question:
 
According to Maxmueller and others, the Vedic Aryans created caste / Varna system.
 
If that is the case, wherever, Aryans went, there should have been / should be such stratification.
 
Then , how is that only in India "caste" is talked about?
 
You are right, or he's right. The Vedic Aryans that left Pakistan and settled or ruled in the Gangetic plains created the caste system to seperate them off from the locals. This caste system was based on colour of the individuals, but this was after they had left Pakistan which is why the caste system is not present in Pakistan now, I suppose.
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 14:26
If that is the case, wherever, Aryans went, there should have been / should be such stratification.
 
Then , how is that only in India "caste" is talked about?

Take the example of the British. Not everywhere the British went did a South African segregated state emerge. In other places the racial & class divide was much smaller, in others there was much less.
The formation of divides between communites is quite complicated, the structure will not appear in all places just because the same people went there.
but this was after they had left Pakistan which is why the caste system is not present in Pakistan now, I suppose.

Not really, the caste system was present amoungst the people of pakistan between now and then
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 15:22
Omar, ^ if you have a reference for caste system being present in Pakistan at any point in its history, I'd like to see it. I'm not referring to ethnicity of course here, just a philosophy accepted in Pakistan by everyone, that one group of people was superior to other groups. i.e Similar to the accepted philosophy in India (at least in the Hindu groups) that the Brahmins are superior, the Kshatriyas are below them etc..

Edited by TeldeInduz - 28-Nov-2006 at 15:25
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 18:29

Hindus have been living in the pakistan region for thousands of years, they'll have the caste system. Just because Buddhists and Muslims don't have one doesn't mean that pakistan has never had one.
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 20:03
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Hindus have been living in the pakistan region for thousands of years, they'll have the caste system. Just because Buddhists and Muslims don't have one doesn't mean that pakistan has never had one.

 
A small proportion of Hindus have lived in Pakistan and are living in Pakistan currently for the last couple of millenia. This though is a small part of the population, that adhere to a caste system, the majority of Pakistanis do not have one. Historically, I don't agree that Pakistan had any substantial Hindu presence (in the present Hindu form), the majority were either Buddhist or followers of Vedism which didnt have a caste system. I have not seen any evidence that Pakistan land had any caste system in its history. That's one of the cultural differences between India and Pakistan today.
 
This quote from a Greek researcher more or less sums it up..Vedic or "Hindu" Pakistanis ate beef, got drunk and didnt have a caste system.
 
"The outstanding characteristics of this early Aryan society was its basic difference from the later Hinduism. Cows were not worshipped but eaten. Intoxicating spirits were not forsaken but joyously consumed. There were classes but no castes, and the priests were subordinate to the nobles rather than at the top of the social pyramid. In short, Aryan society resembled much more the contemporary Indo-European societies than it did Hinduism that was to develop in later centuries in the Gangetic Valley."
 
Another quote from an aptly named Dr Singh
 
"Both early RigVedic and gangetic Puranic sources clearly point to ethnic, cultural and religious differences and a 'clash of civilizations and nations' at the ganga indicating that the Vedic people and culture of the northwest did not accept the gangetic priests, their gods, shastras, religion, culture and Brahmanical caste ideology. The eastern gangetic heartland is not only historically a separate region, but geographically resides over 1500 miles to the southeast of the Saptha Sindhva country. Uptil the advent of Mohammed Ghori in the 13th century, the northwest was politically unified with southasia only 92 years under the Mauryas (out of 27 centuries) since the start of Saptha Sindhvas Vedic period (1500 BC).

 
Pakistan (or at least Sindh) does have many Dalits that stayed back after Partition. The excuse given was that they could not move to India being too poor, but at the time of Partition prospects were much better for Dalits in Pakistan than India. The vision Jinnah had was for Dalits to be occupying government positions (only a couple now do, though when Pakistan formed Dalits were given more senior roles).


Edited by TeldeInduz - 28-Nov-2006 at 20:12
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 21:07
Yes the vision of Jajiya, forced conversions like etc... Pakistan was not even able to accept the basis of its partiotion that it was the nation for indian muslims & called them refugees. It is only due to the old Indian heritage that it can claim what it claims.
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Posts: 28 		  Quote CHAUDRY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 04:50
Remember the white bannner in the pakistani flag?
It stands for the minorieties in pakistan, religious minorities.
If pakistani mussalman, or their predecessors in india (which ruled it for more then over 1000 years) wanted to force anybody, there would not have been much india left.
no comment
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Posts: 342 		  Quote ashokharsana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 06:41
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

Omar, ^ if you have a reference for caste system being present in Pakistan at any point in its history, I'd like to see it. I'm not referring to ethnicity of course here, just a philosophy accepted in Pakistan by everyone, that one group of people was superior to other groups. i.e Similar to the accepted philosophy in India (at least in the Hindu groups) that the Brahmins are superior, the Kshatriyas are below them etc..
 
 
Hey Brother....Where do u stay ..Not at least in Pakistan for sure....
 
 
Pakistan's 70% poulation is divided in more than 1000 castes....Like hindus they have brahmins, Jats, gujars, rajputs, arains. They also have muslim subcastes as maulavis, pathans, Moghals, shiehk, saiyyeds and Qureshis (related to Prophet Mohammed's, MPBUH) etc...
 
Rest of Pakistani population is also divided on ethnic and regional basis (baluchi, swati, sindhi etc...)
 
And the most importent thing....Like we Hindus have brahmins as the high held caste.....Muslims also have people with Arabic origin as the highest place holders (specially the qahtenites) in caste hierachy, Their hands are kissed when people meet them and they are considered to be holy as compared to a mulsim from Indian or paksitani origin....
 
Please tell me If i am not correct ...?
 
Regards
 
Ashok Harsana
The Real Ranas, The Real Emperors of India. http://ashokharsana.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=gurjars
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 07:52
 
Look, for the last time, Pathan is not a caste. Pathan is an ethnic group. The only castes using the proper definition of the word are social ones and these are only Brahmin (top), Kshatriya (middle), untouchable (lowest). Jatt is not a caste, it is an ethnic group like Pathan.
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 16:10
Interesting info telde. I think there may be some truth to it, but not to the extent that the caste system didn't exist. Influence from the Gangietic valley will have definitely introduced this into the indus valley.
Pathans & Baluchis have never had castes, but in Sindh and Punjab  I still think there was.
Pakistan's 70% poulation is divided in more than 1000 castes....Like hindus they have brahmins, Jats, gujars, rajputs, arains. They also have muslim subcastes as maulavis, pathans, Moghals, shiehk, saiyyeds and Qureshis (related to Prophet Mohammed's, MPBUH) etc...

I don't agree with these muslim castes. For the simple reason that one of the important factors about a caste is that they don't intermarry, and I would fall into multiple categories (mughali, syed, quraeshi) (+most people who call themselves Quraeshi in Pakistan & India have no relation to the Quraeshi tribe, they took the name when they converted)
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Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 18:18
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

 
Look, for the last time, Pathan is not a caste. Pathan is an ethnic group. The only castes using the proper definition of the word are social ones and these are only Brahmin (top), Kshatriya (middle), untouchable (lowest). Jatt is not a caste, it is an ethnic group like Pathan.
Though Islam and Chistianity do not have religously codifed caste systems, the Christian concept of "In Christ there is neither slave nor free" and the Islamic equivelant have not been practiced.
 
What Asok is illustrating is that Pakistan has  a "De facto" caste system that is based on ethnicity, sect membership, skin color, warrior status, family status and  descent from the Prophet Mohammed.   Membership in many of these "quasi castes" is inherited and intermarriage is discouraged.  Then factor is differing educational oppurtunities.  Changing "quasi castes" is difficult.  In the USA we too had (have) "quasi castes"  based on many of these factors .
 
Though there is a huge academic / religous difference between the religously codified castes of Hinduism and casteless (in theory) Christianity and Islam, to the "man on the ground" (sometimes literally), there can be very little diference.  
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma


Their is a caste system everywhere. the non Indian caste systems are much more harmful than the Indian ones.
Yes, castes systems exist everywherte, but not all non Indian caste systems are less harmful that the Indian one.
 


Edited by Cryptic - 02-Dec-2006 at 06:08
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Posts: 928 		  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 23:15
Cryptic is correct, people just use religion as a fig leaf to cover up how they really do things behind the scenes. A pig with lipstic look a lot different but in reality it is still just another pig.
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2006 at 07:48
Maqsad, cryptic, plz look up what caste means..it has to do with social status..no ethnic group in Pakistan is deprived. Pathans have ruled, Punjabis have ruled, Balochis have had positions of high office, as have Sindhis. Muhajirs control Karachi.
 
If there was the slightest caste system in Pakistan, none of these ethnic groups would have achieved their status. Pakistan does have a class system though like in the West..and historically Punjabis and Sindhis were the Vedic civilization mentioned above, so I don't think they had a caste system like anyone else in Pakistan historically.
 
Now class systems are a different matter, and in this Pakistan definitely does have super rich and super poor.
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Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2006 at 07:20
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

Maqsad, cryptic, plz look up what caste means..it has to do with social status..no ethnic group in Pakistan is deprived. 
 
Now class systems are a different matter, and in this Pakistan definitely does have super rich and super poor.
 
Perhaps I am transferring the former U.S. class /  quasi caste system to Pakistan.   In USA, high social status (money, influence) was almost always linked to ethnically Anglo Saxons  of the Episcopelian Protestant group.  
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Maqsad what caste are you?
 
 think there is only one contiguous community of hindus that  live in Sindh. They may have a caste. Other than that i find the suggesion of a prevalent caste system a bizzare case of extrapolation. It is like saying the saudis mut still have some idol-worship left in them.
 
 
 
Pathans live in a comunity of equals. Caste is a concept that is alien to their society. The division of identity that existed in Punjab post partition was one based on division of labour, but one wasnt bonded to a particular form of labour/employment/profession. Better understood as class. Still this concept of class can not be equated to a 'system'.
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Posts: 315 		  Quote M. Nachiappan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2006 at 01:07
The main points to be considered are as follows:
 
1. It is the question of "Aryans", "Aryanization" etc., based on "racial theory" opposed "Davidians" in India.
 
2. As "Aryans" have been there (before miscegenation), there should be Varna / caste system - one way or the other, wherever, "Aryans" supposed to invaded / migrated.
 
3. Like "Dravidians", there should be opposing groups in all those non-Indian areas / nations.
 
4. If any religion or society has simlar stratification, not necessarily based on colour, but also supported by the religious injunction / theology, it could be existing.
 
5. Among the Mohammedans / Muslims, the division based on theology are - Sunnis, Shias, Wahabis, Hannabis, Khadhiyanis, etc.
Sayydids, Bohras, leddais, etc., based on social stratificatory factors, tribal groups / divisions.
 
6. Christians of course take strength from the biblical conceopts of "servant of servant should be servant forever", "the drawers of waters and hewers of wood", etc. A to Z denominations etc.
 
7. "Caste" is the word, coined / cast by the Portuguese from the word "casta" in Indian context. But, such "caste" has been there in every society, otherwise conceived, perceived and stratified as denominations, ethnicity, ethnos, class, creed, and so on.
 
8. Thus, sociologists, anthropologists, historians and other scholars deal with these factors differently; theologians approacxh differently; however, politicians enjoys, when all these differe, interpret and theorize variously!
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Posts: 928 		  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 07:30
My "caste" is rajput punjabi sunni muslim and before islam it may have been kshatriya who knows, or it could have been one of the other hindu castes or I could have come from outside the region but you all seem to be missing my point entirely, I was not referring to some hidden secretly practiced remnants of the brahmanic caste system in Islam. What I was saying is no matter what relgion, government or social structure a person lives in...human nature tends to lean towards partitioning oneself off due to an "us versus them" metnality. I am saying it is human nature. Look at these two articles I found about the ancient english apartheid caste system in 5th and 6th century England:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5192634.stm

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=588&art_id=qw1153228321565B216



 

I even made a thread about the English caste system here, though it hasnt quite 'caught fire' there lol:

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16426&KW=&PID=306297#306297
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 12:43

^Actually you're missing the point Maqsad. A Rajput Punjabi Sunni Muslim is not a caste. A Rajput Punjabi Sunni Muslim can be president of Pakistan (like Bhutto), just as a Pathan can be president of Pakistan (like Yahya Khan). But if you're an untouchable in India, you will never be prime minister of India. This is what the caste system is..a social status. Even in your links you refer to an apartheid system whereby one group of people is SOCIALLY  SUPERIOR to another group. This is not the same as ethnic identity where all people are of the same social standing.



Edited by TeldeInduz - 10-Dec-2006 at 12:45
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Posts: 2252 		  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 12:53
Posted in wrong place. Edited. *DELETE*


Edited by malizai_ - 10-Dec-2006 at 18:27
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