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Muslims and the Caste System
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TeldeInduz View Drop Down
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Muslims and the Caste System
    Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 03:34
Originally posted by sayak

deve gowda?
 
How is Deve Gowada an Untouchable when his family were all farmers. The Untouchables are barely allowed to handle the faeces of the upper castes let alone their food.
 
 
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Posts: 283 		  Quote AP Singh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 02:20
There is no untouchable in the present day India and hence there is no question of untouchable becoming prime minister of India. This social evil was put to death by Mahatma Gandhi forever a long back.
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Posts: 0 		  Quote sayak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2007 at 21:35
deve gowda?
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2007 at 12:07
Originally posted by sayak

an untouchable can easily be the prime minister. most of the politics in india is caste based. in north india parties representing lower castes like samajwadi or bahujansamajwadi party have considerable power. congress is strongest in south india and hence the majority of its elected members come from lower classes: indeed most parties of southern india are so. only 20% of india is upper caste-do not think this fact is not reflected in the indian parliament.
 
LOL!! That was a funny one SmileTongue Untouchables can be prime minister of India and leaders.. Oh really. Can you name one untouchable prime minister or president of India, you can use the entire history of the country if you like. India's parliament is predominantly upper caste and does not reflect the 20% upper caste or however much in Indian society.


Edited by TeldeInduz - 02-Jan-2007 at 12:08
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2006 at 12:28
There caste system in pakistan in not the same as in  india.
In india it is a part of hindu religion.The correct way to desribe the caste system in pakistan would be the clan system. 
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Posts: 0 		  Quote sayak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 12:08
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

^Actually you're missing the point Maqsad. A Rajput Punjabi Sunni Muslim is not a caste. A Rajput Punjabi Sunni Muslim can be president of Pakistan (like Bhutto), just as a Pathan can be president of Pakistan (like Yahya Khan). But if you're an untouchable in India, you will never be prime minister of India. This is what the caste system is..a social status. Even in your links you refer to an apartheid system whereby one group of people is SOCIALLY  SUPERIOR to another group. This is not the same as ethnic identity where all people are of the same social standing.

                      an untouchable can easily be the prime minister. most of the politics in india is caste based. in north india parties representing lower castes like samajwadi or bahujansamajwadi party have considerable power. congress is strongest in south india and hence the majority of its elected members come from lower classes: indeed most parties of southern india are so. only 20% of india is upper caste-do not think this fact is not reflected in the indian parliament.
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Posts: 315 		  Quote M. Nachiappan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2006 at 04:31
About English "casrte system", I have indirectly inferred as follows:
 
"Caste" is the word, coined / cast by the Portuguese from the word "casta" in Indian context. But, such "caste" has been there in every society, otherwise conceived, perceived and stratified as denominations, ethnicity, ethnos, class, creed, and so on.
 
As the word "race" should not be used, I have not used it.
 
That "caste" form of divide, differentiation, or any such variance, has been there in every society and that is why "certain group of people" are treated by "other group" differently in social interactions, gatherings and other occassions.
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Posts: 928 		  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 18:55
I do not deny that the culture, the personality and the nature of pakistani peoples is against the ruthlessness of the mainstream brahmanic caste system but I do suspect a less vicious form of castism did occur in pakistan. No sources or links but now that it has piqued my curiosity I have made a mental note to be on the lookout. I'm going to see if I can come up with something in the next few days.
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 17:30
"Brahmanical Hinduism" originated in the Ganges, not from Pakistan. If you read the Mahabharata there's proof of this, and depending on when you think it was written, proof that Pakistan did not follow the caste system historically.
 
The only period left really is between 0AD and 12 AD, and I think yu'd find that this was after the Maurya Period under which a lot of Pakistan became Buddhist. The leftovers were Vedic I assume mixed with some Hindus that converted when Pakistan was ruled by Indian invaders. I have not seen any evidence the society in Pakistan ever used a caste system, just assumptions that if it was ruled by a Hindu king, society must be Hindu. In fact, the society in Pakistan was always hostile to Hindu rule for this very reason.
 
 
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Posts: 928 		  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 17:14
Pushing asides the shifts to buddhism in pakistan's history there must also have been periods in Pakistan's pre-islamic history when brahmanic hinduism was the state religion for various city states and the social system for various tribes. Do I really have to prove that?
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 16:55
There were no castes in Pakistan before Islamic times..Unless you can show some evidence that there was.
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Posts: 928 		  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 16:53
My point is old castes were demolished in the paki revolution[islam if you want to call it that]....but due to human nature castism was not eliminated from the human psyche. New castes have been created under different names and guises. Human nature is hard to change.
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 13:39

Even Ahmadis do get official recognition in Pakistan (though I will admit they do get some discrimination on account that they are considered heretic).

The Nobel Physics Prize winner in fact was made head of SUPARCO and made science advisor to Pakistan's presidents before his move to Italy.
 
Another famous Ahmdiya is MM (Mirza Muzaffer)f Ahmad, the former chief secretary of Pakistan. So yes, they do not have a fixed social status either within Pakistan. The only people that have a caste system in Pakistan are Hindus, and most of these are Dalits.


Edited by TeldeInduz - 10-Dec-2006 at 13:42
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Posts: 928 		  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 13:17
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

^Actually you're missing the point Maqsad. A Rajput Punjabi Sunni Muslim is not a caste. A Rajput Punjabi Sunni Muslim can be president of Pakistan (like Bhutto), just as a Pathan can be president of Pakistan (like Yahya Khan). But if you're an untouchable in India, you will never be prime minister of India. This is what the caste system is..a social status. Even in your links you refer to an apartheid system whereby one group of people is SOCIALLY  SUPERIOR to another group. This is not the same as ethnic identity where all people are of the same social standing.



Right, but can an ahmadi be president of pakistan? Can he even get credit in his own country for being the only person from a muslim country to win the nobel prize in physics?
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Posts: 2252 		  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 12:53
Posted in wrong place. Edited. *DELETE*


Edited by malizai_ - 10-Dec-2006 at 18:27
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 12:43

^Actually you're missing the point Maqsad. A Rajput Punjabi Sunni Muslim is not a caste. A Rajput Punjabi Sunni Muslim can be president of Pakistan (like Bhutto), just as a Pathan can be president of Pakistan (like Yahya Khan). But if you're an untouchable in India, you will never be prime minister of India. This is what the caste system is..a social status. Even in your links you refer to an apartheid system whereby one group of people is SOCIALLY  SUPERIOR to another group. This is not the same as ethnic identity where all people are of the same social standing.



Edited by TeldeInduz - 10-Dec-2006 at 12:45
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Posts: 928 		  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 07:30
My "caste" is rajput punjabi sunni muslim and before islam it may have been kshatriya who knows, or it could have been one of the other hindu castes or I could have come from outside the region but you all seem to be missing my point entirely, I was not referring to some hidden secretly practiced remnants of the brahmanic caste system in Islam. What I was saying is no matter what relgion, government or social structure a person lives in...human nature tends to lean towards partitioning oneself off due to an "us versus them" metnality. I am saying it is human nature. Look at these two articles I found about the ancient english apartheid caste system in 5th and 6th century England:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5192634.stm

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=588&art_id=qw1153228321565B216



 

I even made a thread about the English caste system here, though it hasnt quite 'caught fire' there lol:

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16426&KW=&PID=306297#306297
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The main points to be considered are as follows:
 
1. It is the question of "Aryans", "Aryanization" etc., based on "racial theory" opposed "Davidians" in India.
 
2. As "Aryans" have been there (before miscegenation), there should be Varna / caste system - one way or the other, wherever, "Aryans" supposed to invaded / migrated.
 
3. Like "Dravidians", there should be opposing groups in all those non-Indian areas / nations.
 
4. If any religion or society has simlar stratification, not necessarily based on colour, but also supported by the religious injunction / theology, it could be existing.
 
5. Among the Mohammedans / Muslims, the division based on theology are - Sunnis, Shias, Wahabis, Hannabis, Khadhiyanis, etc.
Sayydids, Bohras, leddais, etc., based on social stratificatory factors, tribal groups / divisions.
 
6. Christians of course take strength from the biblical conceopts of "servant of servant should be servant forever", "the drawers of waters and hewers of wood", etc. A to Z denominations etc.
 
7. "Caste" is the word, coined / cast by the Portuguese from the word "casta" in Indian context. But, such "caste" has been there in every society, otherwise conceived, perceived and stratified as denominations, ethnicity, ethnos, class, creed, and so on.
 
8. Thus, sociologists, anthropologists, historians and other scholars deal with these factors differently; theologians approacxh differently; however, politicians enjoys, when all these differe, interpret and theorize variously!
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Posts: 2252 		  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2006 at 20:05
Maqsad what caste are you?
 
 think there is only one contiguous community of hindus that  live in Sindh. They may have a caste. Other than that i find the suggesion of a prevalent caste system a bizzare case of extrapolation. It is like saying the saudis mut still have some idol-worship left in them.
 
 
 
Pathans live in a comunity of equals. Caste is a concept that is alien to their society. The division of identity that existed in Punjab post partition was one based on division of labour, but one wasnt bonded to a particular form of labour/employment/profession. Better understood as class. Still this concept of class can not be equated to a 'system'.
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Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2006 at 07:20
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

Maqsad, cryptic, plz look up what caste means..it has to do with social status..no ethnic group in Pakistan is deprived. 
 
Now class systems are a different matter, and in this Pakistan definitely does have super rich and super poor.
 
Perhaps I am transferring the former U.S. class /  quasi caste system to Pakistan.   In USA, high social status (money, influence) was almost always linked to ethnically Anglo Saxons  of the Episcopelian Protestant group.  
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