9 Oghuzes and Sihun Oghuzes

There existed two different groups of Oghuzes. One, the famouse 9 Oghuzes and the second ‘Sihun Oghuzes’. These two were not of the same origin.

1-Ibn-I Khurdadbe’ and ‘Khwarazmi’along with all Moslems historians stated 9 Oghuzes (Toghuz guz, to their language) and Oghuze (alghuziye) were two different societies.

2-Oghuzes inhabiting coast of river were devided to two groups. One of them ‘Boz Ok’ and the other ‘Uch Ok’. For sure, these were memorials of the core ten tribes of the Western Gok Turk (while 9 Oghuz were of the Eastern Gok Turk).

3-Among Sihun Oghuzes, Yapqu’s successors had the title Erkin. ‘Erkin’ was specific to the ‘Beyik’s related to the tribe Nu.She.Pi which was of the On Oks, living around the rivers Cho and Talas.

4-The Qaghan of the Western Gok Turks sent two representatives for Tıgın’s funeral, named ‘Makarach Tamqachi’ and ‘Oghuz Bilge Tamqachi’. The word ‘Oghuz’ here mentions ‘Bilge Tamqachi’s tribal relationship; as in ‘Turk Bilge Qaghan’. So, there were another <

5-The tribe names ‘Quny’ and ‘Tongro’ which were of 9 Oghuz, are not observed among Sihun Oghuz. Also, none of the 24 tribes of Sihun Oghuzes tribes appeared among 9 Oghuz.

6- There was a tribe called 'Turkmen', related to Sihun Oghuzes, who resided in Central Asia before 9 Oghuzes (Turkmenistan Turkmens) entered the area.

Edited by gok_toruk - 15-Feb-2007 at 06:09

Turkmens are direcet descendants of 9 Oghuz. They�re considered, now, the southwestern group, because of their current location. Or else, they are originally northeasterners, as Turkic inscriptions in Mongolia mentioned. Just as a note, the tribes which were considered as �northern tribes� (or in some places, �northeasterners� are 9 Oghuz, Tatars, Kurikans, Kyrkizes and Yer Bayirku. Kuriakans along with Kyrkizes were considered inside the group 30 Tatar, in Turkic inscriptions. Anyhow, although modern Turkmens are classified as southwesterners, the correct standard Turkmen language is the advanced form of Uighur (especially in pronounciation), and is of eastern origin. By saying �the advanced form of Uighur�, I just want to give you a concept. Turkmen�s grammer is much more complicated than Uighur. It has got more suffixes. Verbs have got their own severity; I mean there are different verbs to state different qualities of quantites (for �to drop�, we�ve got different positions: �eperky, zyngqy, atqu, oqloqu�, each of them having its own quality. Or �to push� ytykleky, ypyrky, sushurku). The sound system seems to be flater than Uighur. Turkmen distinguish between a long and a short vowel. Along with some other reasons, that�s why there doesn�t exist a Turkmen word wich might mean in two or more different ways (but consider the case for Azeri: �var� means both �go� and �exists�- Ozbek �keche� means both �late; night� and �passing�). It has preserved more of the old structure. It has got, even, some particular vocabulary and grammer which shows its similarity with old Altaic tongue (use of the proposition �qa� in question sentences, as in �kymqa�, �myqa�, neqa�, having no open ending, and words describing mood�); it�s proved that Oghuz Qaqa was the founder of the Hunnic empire. All I mean, is that correct standard Turkmen differs very much from Turkish or Azerbaijani. Only southern Turkmen tribes and their conversational language could be compared to Azerbaijani and Anatolian Turkic. Also, Turkish and Azeri people just can�t pronounce �q�. Even �gh� is not used. Only a very very slight form of �gh� is used as in �dagh� (mountain). This is not the only difference in dialects, but one of the most important cases.

Turkish and Azeri people just can�t pronounce �q�. Even �gh� is not used. Only a very very slight form of �gh� is used as in �dagh� (mountain). This is not the only difference in dialects, but one of the most important cases.

Edited by gok_toruk - 08-Sep-2006 at 15:34

Turkey and Azerbaijan Turks are also "Oguz" Turks. Why is this so hard to understand, there are even the same Turkmen tribes in Turkey and Turkmenistan, who weave the same carpets, have very similar accents and tradditions.

Seljuks were Oguz, Ottomans were Oguz (Kayi), KaraKoyunlu and Akkoyunlu were Oguz, Afsharid's etc etc were Oguz. There are Salyr Turks in Turkey aswell, they have villages and preserve their customs.

 

The Eretna Beylik were Uygur Turks, Turks who arrived with the Timurids may have not all been "Oguz", those who arrived with the Golden Horde....

 

There were key periods of Turks migrations to the West from Turkistan.

 

1. Mass Oguz Turk migrations

2. Migrations with the Golden Horde

3. Migrations from Timurids

4. Migrations when Ottomans suffered defeat in the Kafkas, Crimea, Balkans

5. Migrations in WW1

 

Gok-Turuk

C-      All those example by Qashqary about Oghuz dialect difference, are specific to Anatolian dialects and Azeri, but not Turkmen.

 

 

No, this is very misleading, at the time Qashqary wrote his great literary work there were no terms as "Anatolian" or "Azeri" dialects. Anatolia had not been fully populated by Turks at the time. The Seljuks were ruling in today's Azerbaycan region and Iran these were clearly "Oguz Turks" which Qashqary clearly calls "Turkmens". Qashqary is referrring to the descendants of todays Turkmenistan, Iran Turks, Azerbaycan, Caucaus, Turkey, Balkan Turks.

 

 

See, there might be �tat Turkmens� as I told you about Awshar; but they, as themselves say, are not original Turkmens and are �qyzylbash�es.

 

This is also very misleading, Turkmens outside Turkmenistan especially "Alevi" in Turkey

openly state they are "Turkmens" and say they kept the culture most alive. 

They never say their not original Turkmen's they say their full original Turkmens.

 

The Oguz Turks that migrated to the West were a huge tribal confederacy who united

under the banner of "Oguz". 

 

Azerbaycan Turkish accent does have "q"-"gh" sound, so does Turkey in spoken language.

 

Turkmenistan Turkmen can easily be read by other "Oguz" Turkish dialect speakers. Turkey and Azerbaycan Turks Turkish is totally intellegeble as is that of the Balkans, Caucaus, Middle East. Turkmen Turkish is mutually intellegeble to Turkey and especially Azerbaycan Turks. Even Karakalpak Turkish is very similar to that spoken by Turks West of the region.

 

From Turkmenistan to the Balkans, most the Turks can be called "Oguz Turks"-Turkmens. They have lot's in common, obviously linguistically but also historically, and culturally. For example, "Karacaoglan Epic", Karacaoglan was an Oguz Turk who was from today's Turkmenistan, from there he migrated through Iran, Azerbaycan to Turkey. Today the epic of "Karacagolan" is loved in by Turks of all these areas and recently its four hundred year anniversary was celebrated in Turkmenistan, Turkey, Azerbaycan.

 

Its normal for tribes to have battles with each other, however the conclulsion of the story of the "Legendary Oguz" is that when united look what they can achieve

These Turk tribes united under the banner of "Oguz Turks" and became unbelievably successfull and influenced most of the known world.

 

Edited by Bulldog - 08-Sep-2006 at 19:16

Yeah, they might be of Oghuz origin,but for sure, they're not of 9 Oghuz origin. All the similarities you talk about is just among southern tribes, I told you. Do you want me to speak my own dialect, and tell me if you understand it or not, huh? A simple sentence which is also about our discussion would be: 'onno netyp nalytmaqay?'

Virtually all Moslem historians state that ANY Turk who became Moslem was called Turkmen. Also, lots of people (aside from Turkmens themselves) were called by Iranians as Turkmen, just because they were NOMADS.

Totally, so far, you haven't defended your idea and wasn't able to show I'm wrong. First, please read my posts carefully line by line and then start writing against it, if you think I'm wrong. I'm talking based on historical documents and some linguistic knowledge I've got.

If the discussion goes that way, I will be on it too.

The name Oghuz, you know it, means 'peope, tribes'. They were consisted of 'toquz oq'. And the plural form is '9 Oghuz'. That's simple. Even the western Turks were consisted of 'on oq'. You can use 'On Oghuz' for them, also. So, necessarily 9 Oghuzes and Sihun Oghuzes were not the same soceity. By the way, even Turk Qaghan and most of historians stated they were DIFFERENT societies.

Edited by gok_toruk - 10-Sep-2006 at 03:47

All Turkish people have had arguements with me lately, no surprise to see an original Turkmen (Tangriberdi) who's become a Turk started this agian. Invest more time reading the posts or else stop talking on my behalf. I didn't say langauge difference shows being Turk or not. I said languages difference shows the speakers are different people.

Edited by gok_toruk - 10-Sep-2006 at 03:54

To all forumers investing time and energy on this thread (at least for to have a glance). See, if you're against me, try to support your own idea by giving proof that shows all those numbers and people like Kol Tigin, Qashqary and most of historians have told us lies. Or else, we'll be only listening to your IDEAs.