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Geography of the Imperial Age

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  Quote pedrocalcoen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Geography of the Imperial Age
    Posted: 14-Apr-2012 at 10:43

What was new in the Vasco da Gama expedition? I mean as a nautical and epic achievement: the way he went to the middle of south atlantic and discover the system of wind in that area. A large turn to gain good wind and in the retourning more direct in south and stop in Azores… It was the voyage more long without visit land –the first voyage with sailors that began to suffer from scurvy. The expeditions of Cão and Dias were always by the coast. This rout was called by the Portuguese a volta do mar (something like retourning of the sea). In the next expeditions was discover Brasil (and then explore) and south atlantic islands like Tristão da Cunha (name of a navigator) and Santa Helena. As you see this was a planned effort that includes ways to planned the navigation in the southern skies, as Camões said “we also discover new skies”

Cabral was sent after Gama but his fleet lost from each other… in this voyage Diogo Dias brother of Bartolomeu Dias (that died in this expedition) land in Madagascar. many other islands and places were then reach by the Portuguese: Ceylan by D Lourenço de Almeida; Sequeira in Malaca; otherers to Indonesian island – Portugal settled in Timor in XVI. Then south China – Macau was a free city in XVI almost an independent one. And then portuguese were the first Europeans to arrive Japan. Fernão Mendes Pinto wrote a large book about is adventures in that areas. In the XVI many Portuguese run away from official rules and began to explore by themselves, sometimes they became rulers of local cities, explore Tibet and other areas in the interior (for instance Bento de Góis). Brazilian coast was then explore by Duarte Pacheco Pereira, Estevão de Sá, Dias de Soli (an Italian man) and Vespucio (under the orders of Spanish and Portuguese kings).

I hope I am not being boring. In next posts I´ll talk about Portuguese explorers in the service of Spain and about Portuguese cartography in the XV and beginning of XVI.

Best regards


Edited by pedrocalcoen - 14-Apr-2012 at 10:47
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  Quote pedrocalcoen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2012 at 10:09

Well the portuguese discoveries were much older and began in the first half of XV… Portuguese explorers cross at leat half of the north Atlantic and went to North America, some names Corte Real family (João Vaz- this one before Colombus?, Gaspar e Miguel), Labrador… Corte Real explorers seek for themselves north Canada (Terra Nova). Others were supported by Prince Henry the Navigator: Gonçalo Velho went to Azores; Bartolomeu Perestrelo and Tristão Vaz Teixeira… Many other began to navigate to the south.

Gil Eanes was the first to cross a legendagy border: Bojador. Prince Henry sent for almost 15 years expeditions but no one dare to cross that boundary. But Eanes succeed and in the years after many other push the limit south and south: Nuno Tristão, Dinis Dias but also some Italians under the service of Prince Henry: António Noli, Cadamosto…

Prince Henry, sometimes with the support of Prince Peter, offer a prize to the navigator that went more south in each year… When they died the new king D Afonso V just want to make holy war and rent the business of the discoveries to Fernão Gomes that put the following navigators in service: João de Santarém, Pedro Escobar, Lopo Gonçalves, Fernão do Pó and Pedro de Sintra.

Then the king D João II puts a new effort to the explorations: he sends Diogo Cão that reaches Angola and then Bartolomeu Dias cross Good Hope Cape. At the same time Pero da Covilhã went to Egypt and then to the East Coast of Africa where he was capture but he could send informations to Portugal… the voyage of Vasco da Gama was carefully planned…



Edited by pedrocalcoen - 14-Apr-2012 at 10:31
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2009 at 11:05
A large part of what we think we know about the Peri Reis charts or portolans, was inspired by Dr. Charles Hopgood's book, entitled "Maps of Ancient Sea-Kings", or something to that effect. You must be aware that just because something receives a date, like the date of the Piri Reis map, purporting to show the coast line of S. American and the hidden shore-line of Antartica, can well be either fakes or mis-dated by centuries. Whilst Hopgood makes a claim that the Antartic coast line shown in the chart closely matches that of moder geodetic surveys of the coast line hidden by ice, etc., is up to scholarly debate, but I would really suggest that the similarities are only vaguely alike or a product of mere chance!
You must realize that almost all "originals" of any document are not available now nor have most of them been available for many centuries, what we mostly have today are copies of copies, etc.! Along with claims, after claims, etc. that cannot be proven!

But, the Hopgood book is a good read, nontheless!
Note, he has also written a good deal, I hear, about the unfolding time called mostly "12-12-2012", which some nuts proport to be the end of the world!
Just as there might exist a "bit of fact" within fables, so there is sometimes likely to exist a bit of "fact" within Science Fiction or fiction in general.
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2008 at 03:41

I don't know why some try so hard to make Piri Reis seem as insignificant as possible without ever reading anything he wrote or studying his works in any detail.

1. - In Piri Reis book, Kitab-i Bahriye we are told that a "world map" was drawn, the American map is only one section.
 
2. - His maps are some of the most accurate drawn, which still amaze those that study them today such as recent Russian studies.
 
3. - He drew the first known map of Antartica.
 
 
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  Quote kafkas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2008 at 03:54
Too many posts trying to claim Piri Reis' work as their nation's LOL
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  Quote pinghui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2007 at 05:55
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  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 18:00
Hi, i'm here again.

Thanks, can you also talk about the Spanish explorations when the routes were not yet known?


Yes of course. In fact, the more famous voyages of the XV-XVI centuries was exploring new routes as Coln, Bartolom Das and Vasco da Gama. Here we have three points: the place from where you begin the travel and finally the place where you want arrive; in the middle how you could go from one point to another, that is the Winds. The entire age of explorations, the nature of the voyages are conditionated by Eolus, in the northern hemisphere the winds (and sea streams) turn following the clock, that is for example from western Europe along the coast of North frica crossing the ocean between Canary Islands and Cape Verde to the Caribbean sea, from here from the Mxico Gulf to New England and from here to Western Europe again; in the southern ocean contrary the wind and sea streams turn counter the clock from South frica to Guinea Gulf, from here to north Brasil then go down to Argentia and from here again to South frica. This is equal for the others oceans with exceptions: for example the navigation in the Indic oceans are conditionated by the Monsons and there the Bengal Gulf and the Arabic sea had winds-sea streams turning with the clock, contrary to the entire Indic ocean.

Coln knew about the navigation's conditions on the eastern Atlantic ocean and knew exactly from where he must take the winds for go to the west. Curiously, and probably because he was a good sailor (althought a crazy man) he could take at the first attempt the route for come back to Europe, althought the best route for go to Amrica (followed by the treasure fleets in the XVI century) was lightly to the south of his first voyage route, in the middle of Canary Islands and Cape Verde to Lesser Antilles, and not from Canary islands direct to Cuba, and not from Cape Verde to Trinidad like in his third voyage.

Contrary, the spanish in the Pacific had a lot of problems triying to stablish a route across the Pacific ocean, from Amrica to Phillipines and spice's islands, from here to Amrica again. No problem with the first point, going from Amrica to Asia, but at the moment that they was there was impossible for 40 years take a good way for come back, all the expeditions failed to take the route because the complicated system of islands, winds and sea in actual Indonesia and Phillipines: many of they sunk there as the expedition of Villalobos in the 40's,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruy_L%C3%B3pez_de_Villalobos

many more must came back to... Europe (this the case of the expedition of Magellan and Elcano), a few tryed to go counter  the wind (succesfully, but finished the travel totally tired if i remember well) and finally in the 60's of the XVI century Urdaneta stablished a good route following the Kuro Shivo sea stream and winds: he went to north until Japan, then a few milles north of Hawaii across the Pacific ocean to western coast of USA and from there to Acapulco.

This is the way that the spanish could to stablish the routes that they followed along three centuries.

Tomorrow: the portugueses.

Edited. I put a few more information.


Edited by Ikki - 24-Sep-2006 at 11:17
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 02:53
No problem, give us all the information you can about Spanish explorations. It won't hurt and atleast I read it with enthusiasm.

Thanks, can you also talk about the Spanish explorations when the routes were not yet known?
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  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 17:47
Yes of course, one of the greatest was the expedition of Sebastin Vizcano to North Amrica in 1602. The galleon of Manila come back from Orient directly from more or less Japan to north California in a voyage of 6 months (7-9 to Acapulco) So because the crews and the own ship need to rest and provisions, the viceroy of New Spain sent an expedition with the only purpose of explore the pacific coast of actual USA for help to the galleons. In previous years the spanish tried to explore there with the expeditios of Corts in Baja California and Cabrillo in 1542; then because the galleon of Manila saw this coast and they couldn't approach, Vizcano went there.

Vizcano went to California with cartographers, landing there and fighting with natives, they went until the actual state of Oregn and maped the main points of the californian coast. Unfortunatelly, the traders of the Manila galleon don't want use his maps and recommendations, because they didn't want that the crew lost any time before landing in Acapulco Unhappy. There are other examples on the caribean sea but i havn't details.

In the dutch side, you have to the own Tasman.

Be careful, we are talking when the trade routes was more or less stablished, but don't forget that at the beginning the same ship that was exploring was a trade ship, so you have the portuguese in actual Indonesia searching the spice's islands and at the same time trading.



About "Terra Australis", counting the expeditions of Tasman you must consider too the less known, but not less wonderful, spanish (i know, again the spanish expeditions Dead, sorry) expeditions of Mendaa, Fernndez de Quirs and Torres (these last two portuguese under spanish service), with the only purpose of discover the southern continent, discovering a lot of pacific islands that is

lvaro de Mendaa, 1567-1569
lvaro de Mendaa and Fernndez de Quirs, 1595-1596
Luis Vez de Torres and Fernndez de Quirs, 1605-1607

http://gutenberg.net.au/pages/torres.html


I forget it, Tasman maped the NW coast of Australia Wink




Edited by Ikki - 13-Sep-2006 at 12:11
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 15:23
Great, this helps alot. Can you name any such military expeditions?

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  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 13:08
I'm here again.

Reunion was discovered too by the portuguese, in fact, very few islands of the Indic ocean was discovered by the dutch althought i don't know others more in the middle. As you see, Mauritius, Reunion and Madagascar are near from the main portuguese route with India but they never settled there; contrary, the dutch althought they don't discovered those islads began to exploit it (i'm remembering Mauritius)



8) Were sailors of certain nations willing to die for their secrets of new lands and routes there? How well were these secrets kept?


The entire naval world was shielded by secrets and prohibitions, not only the routes but for example (and specially) the naval building. I don't know if portuguese and dutch punish to their crews, but specially the portuguese sailors and captains had forbided to say to foreigners the naval routes between Portugal and East India, not only that, but others traders couldn't go there (if the portuguese could stop them of course).

Contrary i know better the spanish side of the question: when they stablished the convoy routes between Spain and Amrica, and between Amrica and Phillipines islands, was totally prohibited to say the main points of the travel to anybody, more, the captains of the annual fleets was provided with a letter in Spain that couldn't be open until the departure of the fleet, when in the middle of the sea they could open it. In this letter they had the course stablished for the fleet, and was punished with the DEATH to say anything to other ships in the route.





11) How well did the 16th century ships withstand ice and cold waters? How long could a ship sail northwards and come yet back? What were the skills of sailing in such regions? How fast were most ships?


I don't know the first twoe questions, althought explorers like Barents explored Svalvard, i think this cause your ask number 9.

But, with the exception of ice, iceberg etc a cold water is not a problem for the ship, contrary, the usual travel to tropical seas is very dangerous because there appeared the so called in spanish "broma", a parasite that eat the tables of the ships so each year the ships must be restored.

The speed of a ship change according with many points: type of ship, winds, storms, crew... For example the treasure fleet of the spanish across the Atlantic or the Manila Galleon had a speed of 3 knots (4.000 km in 30 days and 11.000 km in 3 months); but the warrior fleets of the same spanish could trable about 6-7 knots, and the more fasters ships like the carabels or the pinnaces at 10-12 knots or more, take for example the carabel La Pinta the fastest of the first Columbus voyage, who could travel (trully, flying!) to more than 13 knots (15 milles per hour)


And, when the ship was on sea, they saw a distant land and they headed that way or continued on their current course? So basically, did they allow new routes be taken to go on some certain lands?


That depend of two points: your fleet is a trade fleet, your fleet is a military-exploration fleet. As you are suspecting according with previous information, in the case of the spanish under any condition the trade fleets could go to explore anything, the route was the only route and into the fleets there were agents of the King for guarantee the ordinances; of course this can be explained because the extreme importance of the cargoes, and the consequent care of kings and traders; in an extreme position, the traders of the Manila Galleon opposed to ANY change in the route by 3 centuries, althought many sailors proposed better routes.
When they saw any strange thing (islands, storms, foreigners assents) they take notes ot the position and when they arrived to Spain say it to the institution (Casa de Indias-House of Indias), the Casa to the King, and if they were interest they sent a military expidition; contrary to a popular view, the spanish sent many explorer-military expeditions because this. In certain cases, for examples the treausre fleet of the Atlantic, when they had interest sent fast ships like pinnaces for explore, mainly because security questions.

Althought i don't know with details the examples of portuguese and dutch fleets, was more or less similar.


Edited by Ikki - 12-Sep-2006 at 13:15
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 13:48
Hmmh. Do you recon the name of it?
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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 15:13
Originally posted by rider

Great, I knew you could help.

So the Ottomans had geographs. Interesting, althoguh my knowledge on the more well known Arabian ones is too bordered with al-Idrisi and ibn Battuta. Very well, were there any other significant Ottomans in that type of science?
 
Well, they were into the subject...Searching for what's happening in the world, what's new, how is the world...But not that much into it to send explorers or seafarers, mostly because of the geographical position of the empire which is away to oceans...
 
There was a thread which I and ByzantineEmperor discussed about whole stuff..It shall be dug in somewhere in this Imperial age sub-forum.
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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 15:10
Originally posted by Ikki

Guys don't wast your time anymore with the Piri Reis's map. It is only a work of intelligence made for the ottomans.


3. Piri Reis map isn't the first do draw Amrica..



Pd. I doubt Kapikulu that the second image "dutch map" is XVI century, i think, XVIII century or early XIX

 
While agreeing that it is not the first work depicting America, it is not a piece of paper to be that much underestimated.
 
I searched the map from Google for Mercator's projection..It is not the original projection Mercator had drawn, of course, but the results,more or less,were the same map...So,I think the map gives an accurate view of Mercator's projection...
 
Mercator is an important cartograph...Many distant travelers, explorers and seafarers used to come to Amsterdam to give information to him about what they had seen in their voyages, and he was eager to collect 'em all.
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 13:59
Great, but this can pose other questions. Leaving them for now, but:

Did the Dutch discover the Indian Ocean's islands too? Reunion and others, I mean they were in the middle of the ocean (almost) and so only accidents could take people there.

And, when the ship was on sea, they saw a distant land and they headed that way or continued on their current course? So basically, did they allow new routes be taken to go on some certain lands?

!) Has anyone during the 16-18th century period charted the NZ, Australia coastline (sailed around them)?
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  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 12:18
To the first question (6 in fact): Australia an Tasmania. The dutch were the first, contrary to the portuguese, that used routes along the indic coast (East frica, India, Malaysia, spice islands) the dutch prefered go directly from South frica to Java, crossing the entire Indic by the middle and then turning to the north with those winds and sea ways. The question is everal times the dutch ships don't arrive to Java but to Australia called by theirs Great Java and in the XVIII century New Holland; the Dutch East India company sent to Tasman for explore this land (that they think was the mithycal southern continent), Tasman traveled excesivelly to the south of Australia and landed directly to Tasmania, and then to New Zelland, the first european to see those three islands. In a second attempt, he explored the australian N-NW coast.

Of course Madasgacar and Mauritius was discovered by the portuguese in the early years of the XVI century, after they stablished the route with India; accidents again. Contrary, Ceylon was known by the europeans since the middle ages, for example if i remember well Marco Polo saw it (and other europeans draw it in maps, althought, surely because arab information), when the portuguese arrived to India they searched quickly this island, landed there in 1505.
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 11:42
Yep, Ikki is right, they definetly didn't know about Novaja Zemilija during that period. That can't be from the 16th century, it is way (!!!) too accurate.

Thanks, Ikki, I was looking forward for a post by a person like you (that has joined on the 31st of December). BTW, I looked at the Wikipedia page and it seemed a little 'rusty' to me, seeing so few persons there and they mostly don't have good descriptions.

Also, many maps put a continent to the south to prove the legend of Terra Australis Incognita (which is a name I have quite started to like). Now, to improve the answered questions' status, I must pose these (also will edit the primary post):

6) Who were the first people to see Australia, Tasmania, Ceylon, New Zealand and Mauritius, Madagascar of the European nations? Did the explorers move there by rumours or were they accidental happenings?

7) Why did the Russian Empire (and other Empires) hire so many foreigner explorers?

8) Were sailors of certain nations willing to die for their secrets of new lands and routes there? How well were these secrets kept?

9) When was Svalbard discovered? Wikipedia says that 12th century by Rus and Vikings, but also that Barents in 1596 discovered it? When did Svalbard become known to other countries?

10) How quickly did rumours of new discoveries spread in Europe? Let us say that Cook discovers new lands at Australia: when would the King or Queen of England (presumably in London or Windsor) learn of this?

11) How well did the 16th century ships withstand ice and cold waters? How long could a ship sail northwards and come yet back? What were the skills of sailing in such regions? How fast were most ships?
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  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 11:14

Guys don't wast your time anymore with the Piri Reis's map. It is only a work of intelligence made for the ottomans.

1. Antartic: many medieval europeans maps put a great continent in the south, why? Because according with the greeks, the Earth need a conterweigth in the south. Piri Reis only take this tradition: the antartic draw hasn't paralel with the real Antartic, more, hasn't paralel with the ancient coastline now under sea.

2. Himself say that he draw the new world according with spanish prisonners and charts taken from the iberians. His draw of
Caribbean sea and north America is horrible.

3. Piri Reis map isn't the first do draw Amrica.


Questions of rider:

1. There are a lot of maps from the XVI century, the greatest majority made by iberians, spanish in the west and the entire Pacific, portuguese in the Indic and
Asia. When the map is draw by others, specially italians and germans, they take the information from the iberians explorers. The XVII century has of course many more and more accurate charts made by all the atlantic powers, but generally the exploration was stoped, with the exception of french and english in North Amrica and the dutch in Far Orient (remember Tasman, althought, after these first exploration they quickly stop the expeditions, very expensives)

As you say, the europeans had very good maps from Europe and Middle East before 1500, and a few for the entire known world (from the european side of course) And contrary to a false conception, the europeans didn't begin to explore in 1415 with the portuguese conquest of Ceuta, but in the later years of the XIII century and first years of the XIV century when italians, then portuguese and then aragoneses explored the atlantic coast of North frica until Canary Islands.

Only in the XV-XVI centuries:

Coln, Juan de la Cosa (he made the first charter of Amrica), Magellan and Elcano, Balboa (he was the first to see the Pacific from the american side), Valdivia (he went along the Amazonas), Ponce de Len and Soto (explorers of southeast USA), Cabeza de Vaca and Coronado (both in the Great Plains and the Rocky Mountains, the first europeans that saw the Missisip, the buffalos and the Colorado cannon), Mendaa (explorer of the Pacific ocean), these by the spanish side.

Bartolom Dias, Vasco de Gama and Cabral by the portuguese side.

Cabot, Drake, Raleigh and Frobisher by english side.

Cartier by french side.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Explorers



2. In fact, the iberians had the initiative by this time, followed by english (north Amrica, Pacific in the later years) and french (North Amrica and Brazil) and finally the dutch in the 1590's.

3. Coln, Vasco de Gama, Cabot, Cartier and Magellan.

4. See the answer to the first question.

5. Good thing, why not? The imperialist used the geographical societies according with their perspective, but the geographical societies can't be punished because this. They made great works for the humanity.





Pd. I doubt Kapikulu that the second image "dutch map" is XVI century, i think, XVIII century or early XIX



Edited by Ikki - 10-Sep-2006 at 11:26
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 09:51
Great, thanks. Did you know by the way that Columbus used a later reprinting of these maps on his voyages amongst others?

Now what do you say on my Atlantis' idea about the cartographers of Antarctica? But another question:


If we do know that Antarctica was charted during that period, then how did the charts survive till the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians and others recopied them?
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 14:33
I make a google research and I found the below maps
 
 
al-Idrisi's world map, rectangular, 1192 A.D.*
(oriented with South at the top
)
 
 
 
al-Idrisi's world map, Arabic, 804/1154/1456 A.D.
(oriented with South at the top)
 
 
 
 
source
 
 
 
 
 
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