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Finest Army of the 20th Century

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Poll Question: Japanese Army 1905
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
5 [1.89%]
15 [5.66%]
78 [29.43%]
61 [23.02%]
82 [30.94%]
21 [7.92%]
3 [1.13%]
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Finest Army of the 20th Century
    Posted: 29-Jun-2010 at 08:12
Originally posted by Mosquito

And I wouldnt call all the Romanian soldiers unethusiastic. They really wanted to get back the land which Stalin stole from them after Poland was defeated.
A large number were. Romania switched sides once the Germans began to lose.  In all probability, Romanian troops were more interested in fighting their Hungarian and Bulgarian "allies" than Soviets.
 
Originally posted by Mosquito

There were some elite fascist Italian troops including cavalry that succesfully charged with sabres Soviet infantry.
True, but most of the Italian conscripts in the 8th Army (Italian Army on the Don that completely collapsed during the Stalingrad offensives) were unreliable.
 
Mussolini should have followed Franco's example. Franco understood that Spanish society would not support sending large numbers of conscripts to the Soviet Front. Franco then sent one large division (Blue Division, 20,000 men) of 100% volunteers. The division performed very well and Franco was able to say that Spain was contributing.  
Originally posted by Mosquito

There were about 200.000 Poles (including my own grandfather) conscripted into Wermaht (not in SS, SS units were voluntary, when Germans attempted to create Polish Waffen SS unit they gave up because of lack of volunteers). And my grandfather was in the garrison regiments in Norway and later on eastern front.
That is very interesting. Perhaps you can tell us more about your grandfather.  Was he forced into the Wermacht because he spoke German, did he look "German", or was he just unlucky? Did he serve in garrison units on the Eastern Front or was he sent to the front lines as the Germans got desperate? 
 
Originally posted by Mosquito

In the end of the war the Germans completelly gave up the reistance on the western front where the speed of the western allies was limited only by trafics, and fully concentrated on fighting the Soviets
True, but that was in the last few months of the war.  From June 1944 to March 1945, the allies faced the same quality ratio that the Russians faced.
Originally posted by Domen

If it comes to Waffen SS there were also units of very different quality within the Waffen SS.
Good point. SS units included SS Deutchland as well as the Albanian SS division


Edited by Cryptic - 29-Jun-2010 at 14:09
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  Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2010 at 06:38
If it comes to Waffen SS there were also units of very different quality within the Waffen SS.
 
In fact out of 38 Waffen SS divisions that existed in total, ONLY SEVERAL (up to 7 - 8, no more) can be considered as elite.

I'd say that only 1 "Leibstandarte" and 2 "Deutschland" SS divisions were elite (maybe also 5 "Viking", 9, 10, 23 "Nederland" & 28 "Wallonien"). 3 "Totenkopf" in theory was, but it's performance in 1940 and 1941 was poor, as I wrote above.
 
The remaining 30 - 31 divisions were either very average or just poor.

Soldiers of 11 "Nordland" division (mainly Scandinavian volunteers) were very brave but in many cases their division peformed poorly, mainly because of lack of experienced officers and general lack of training and experience among it's soldiers.


Edited by Domen - 29-Jun-2010 at 06:38
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2010 at 06:20
Originally posted by Mosquito

For the rest of the war, I think the quality match was about even:
Soviet Union 1941-1945: Soviets faced not only elite or high quality Waffen SS or Germany army divisions, but also an army of very unethusiastic Italians, marginal Romanians as well as second or even third string German units.
 
Italian troops that fought on the eastern front were of better quality than those which fought in Italy and Africa. There were some elite fascist Italian troops including cavalry that succesfully charged with sabres Soviet infantry. You have also forgotten about good and well equipped Hungarian troops. And I wouldnt call all the Romanian soldiers unethusiastic. They really wanted to get back the land which Stalin stole from them after Poland was defeated.
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2010 at 05:34
Originally posted by Cryptic

 
I do not think that is accurate.  When Germany attacked the western allies in 1940, the British, French, Dutch, Norweigans etc were attacked by the best troops the Germans had.  Many of these units were then shifted to attack the Soviet Union. Even then, the Germans sent one of their best (Rommel) and high quality German divisions to North Africa.
 
For the rest of the war, I think the quality match was about even:
Soviet Union 1941-1945: Soviets faced not only elite or high quality Waffen SS or Germany army divisions, but also an army of very unethusiastic Italians, marginal Romanians as well as second or even third string German units.
 
France / Belgium 1944: Western allies faced the entire German armed forces from elite SS and army divisions, paratroopers to second or third string garrison divisions including batalions of very unenthusiastic "Germanized" Poles.
 
Italy 1943-45: The Germans sent a high quality commander (Kesserling), paratroopers and other high quality divisions as well as average divisions.  
 
 
Actually I think it was quite accurate. Soviet Union did fight against 90% of German army. And so called unethusiastic "Germanised Poles" fought on all German fronts. There were about 200.000 Poles (including my own grandfather) conscripted into Wermaht (not in SS, SS units were voluntary, when Germans attempted to create Polish Waffen SS unit they gave up because of lack of volunteers). And my grandfather was in the garrison regiments in Norway and later on eastern front. In the end of the war the Germans completelly gave up the reistance on the western front where the speed of the western allies was limited only by trafics, and fully concentrated on fighting the Soviets, beliving almost to the end that sooner or later western allies will sign peacetreaty with them and join them against fighting Soviets.
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2010 at 17:42
Ditto!
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2010 at 07:51
Originally posted by opuslola

Good points made, but from who's sources?
 
The sources are out there, but I do not have them with me.  WWII used to be my only historical interest and I read alot about the subject.
 
Just.... trust me.  But, I bet that you have heard that beforeWink
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2010 at 20:08
Good points made, but from who's sources?
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2010 at 04:46
Originally posted by opuslola

I have read (don't remember the source or sources) that the Western armies, of the Americans, Brits, Canadians, Free French, etc., were not exposed to the "best and brightest" German troops! 
 
I do not think that is accurate.  When Germany attacked the western allies in 1940, the British, French, Dutch, Norweigans etc were attacked by the best troops the Germans had.  Many of these units were then shifted to attack the Soviet Union. Even then, the Germans sent one of their best (Rommel) and high quality German divisions to North Africa.
 
For the rest of the war, I think the quality match was about even:
Soviet Union 1941-1945: Soviets faced not only elite or high quality Waffen SS or Germany army divisions, but also an army of very unethusiastic Italians, marginal Romanians as well as second or even third string German units.
 
France / Belgium 1944: Western allies faced the entire German armed forces from elite SS and army divisions, paratroopers to second or third string garrison divisions including batalions of very unenthusiastic "Germanized" Poles.
 
Italy 1943-45: The Germans sent a high quality commander (Kesserling), paratroopers and other high quality divisions as well as average divisions.  
 
 
 


Edited by Cryptic - 28-Jun-2010 at 07:29
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2010 at 19:15
The Key to Africa was the Med, once the allies gained controll of the Med I say gained-they never lost it, they just wern't able to impose thier will.
 
Although some historians will argue that Malta was not that important, and had little strategic value (it was called WW2s Verdun, due to the dis por amount of forces used on it/for it) I argue that it prevented a complete resupply and helped keep out re enforcements from Italy.
 
.


Edited by Maximus Germanicus I - 26-Jun-2010 at 19:16
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2010 at 18:57
In Africa it seems they faced the "master!", and not the "master race!"

With reliable supply lines, and newer equipment, there is little doubt in my mind that Rommel might have tied up the Brits and Americans for some long months! Maybe another year or more?

But, Germany just did not have the navy or airforce or the industry left to fight so many fronts!


Maybe even our good luck? Although sea and air power, from the West whould have eventually caused the loss of the Afrika Corps!
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  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2010 at 18:35
What quality of troops did the Allies find confronting themselves in Africa then?
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2010 at 17:54

The problem here is that most posters make statements with out being able to back them up-I use some wiki articles out of conveince. However, the whole posting on Okinawa did not come from Wiki.

Wiki is reliable enough if you verify the cit's (which i do)
 
Everyting I post is backed up by numbers/facts or doctrine. How else do you argue, do you just make things up?
 
Otherwise you get some one saying there was no concrete used in the forts... at Okinawa.
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Maximus Germanicus I - 26-Jun-2010 at 17:57
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2010 at 17:48

When you do the battlefield calculus you have to figure force multipliers for each side. Air is generally not a consideration against fortified opponents. The German were dug in, with fortified positions, fighting a defensive war on familiar terrain.

 

When you figure they were conducting a beach head and had to maintain a LOTS operation the BFC should be in the area of 5 to 1 to ensure victory

 

Based on the BFC (assuming a viable beachhead and the use of improved ports)  the allies needs a 3x1 Troop Ratio the either man power or by technological advantage to maintain the offense. In terms of equipment the advantage was even. The Germans had better weapons-I think Domen you and I can both agree on this. But they were also fatigued by a long war and short of repair parts.

 

Of course logistics figures into this, as well is other factors, interdiction etc, etc

 

So what does this mean? On the western front the allies never had that advantage; therefore they doctrinally out performed the Germans.

 

I also agree that the allies didn’t see the best of the German Army- But the poll asked about the Heer not the named divisions or the SS that really weren’t part of the Heer. Remember the paratroopers were Luftwaffe

 

However, once again the Russians fought them on the plains, in easy terrain. The Western Allies had to conduct a much more complex mission. Based on the terrain and the well fortified positions the US and UK had the harder row to hoe. The Eastern front was just mass carnage, with two inept general staffs just wasting good soldiers by putting them in a meat grinder, a slug fest. A slugfest for which the German Army was not built for.

 
By the way to compare the complexity of the Pacific war to the brainless slugfest in the east shows a lack of military knowledge and understanding the complex joint enviroment of the pacific war.
 
Domen I could put you in charge if the Russian Army in 44 and you would win-it doesn't take much. Look at Grant V the South-The South was the better trained army-Who won The North becuase much like the Russians Grant was a blunt object that would beat you till you died.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2010 at 17:12
Maximus could you please stop copying and pasting wikipedia articles? I find it annoying. First of all it is not a reliable source and second - i would rather like to read what members of this forum think instead authors of wiki articles which I can read anytime if I wish.
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2010 at 15:47

Domen

 

You don't remember correctly --You also stated that there were no concrete bunkers on Okinawa.

 

You fail to master the basic military strategy of offense vs defense in depth.

 

You fail to master even the most rudimentary principle, that even first year cadets learn --that of METT-TC.

 

If you are going to quote me, quote me correctly- 3 to 1 5 to 1 is the formula used today, it was also used for staff planning in WW2 - Not WW1

 

Further the Japanese Army at OK used a strong point defense-which considering the terrain was the right call. So of course you don't fortify the whole island-He who defends everything defends nothing. Once again my first year cadets know this.

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  Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2010 at 14:26
WW1 --my friend that is modern military tactics.
 
WW1 is a completely different tactics than WW2.
 
Even organization and tactics of WW1 infantry was completely different than organization and tactics of WW2 infantry.
 
Just to notice that at the beginning of WW1 the smallest organizational unit of infantry was battalion - there were no companies, platoons and teams, experiences of the battlefield led to creating these units.
 
Only by the end of WW1 (in 1918 - not before that) infantry tactics and organization started to have something (at the beginning not much) in common with what later existed in WW2.

Also infantry formations on the battlefield looked very differently in both conflicts - typical extended line of an infantry platoon from WW2 was much more extended than "extended lines" from WW1. In WW1 infantry fought in more dense formations and relied less on firepower in attack.
 
German late WW1 infiltration tactics and Stosstruppen can be considered as prelude to WW2 infantry tactics but still crawling on all fours as such.
 
However that ratio is what any miltary strategist will tell you is what is required for a offense against a dug in enemy.
 
And still the defender suffers most of its losses in counterattacks (which are necessary to hold the frontline because for the attacker it is often enough to break defences in one point, while for the defender it is essential to hold the entire line - otherwise the entire defensive position is useless because it can be outflanked or attacked from behind) and during the so called exploitation phase as well as in withdrawal or breakthrough attempts.
 
For example if it comes to Okinawa - certainly not entire Okinawa was fortified - there were only some certain defensive lines (basically 3 - Machinato, Shuri and Oroku lines) and not entire Okinawa was favourable for the defenders - terrain on Okinawa was suitable for tank operations and US forces were widely using large amounts of tanks and other AFVs to support infantry on Okinawa (over 1,000) - and suffered considerable losses in tanks (if it comes to M4s alone, at least ca. ~225 were lost in combats on Okinawa, despite shortage of Anti-Tank weapons on the Japanese side).
 
But those tanks were deadly for the Japanese - especially flamethrower tanks.
 
There were heavy combats for the Shuri Line for many days, but in the end it was overcame - if I remember correctly - by just one infantry company, which found its weakly defended point and broke through there. This opened the way for the entire army behind Japanese positions and Japanese forces had to abandon the entire Shuri Line and withdraw to the Oroku Line to avoid encirclement:
 
 

Moreover some forces had to be sacrificed during that withdrawal to slow down American pursuit.


Edited by Domen - 26-Jun-2010 at 14:55
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2010 at 13:36
WW1 --my friend that is modern military tactics.
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2010 at 13:33
Domen-
 
Based on your own statements the Germans had superior firepower- It is true that FP is a force multipler-However that ratio is what any miltary strategist will tell you is what is required for a offense against a dug in enemy.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2010 at 13:15
If I may interrupt this great conversation at this point, I would just like to suggest that I have read (don't remember the source or sources) that the Western armies, of the Americans, Brits, Canadians, Free French, etc., were not exposed to the "best and brightest" German troops! I was told that in many instances the Western armies, especially in France, etc., were exposed to "home defence" units or as we might say in America "national guard units!"

In some cases, nothing but old (35-50 year olds) but wise men, and young 12-16 year old boys!

Contrary to TV shows like Hogans Heros, etc., the German army's best troops were deployed against its greatest threat, that is the USSR!

But, since I am not an expert on this war, I shall have to defer to the experts here!
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  Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2010 at 10:14

Domen,
 
It is time to educate you on military principles.

 

In the offensive-What is the troop ratio normally required? 3 to 1

 

In the offensive vs a defense in depth with a dug in opponent 5 to 1
 
 
Maybe you are talking about WW1 and stupid "human wave frontal attack" tactics.
 
There was hardly any battle in WW2 in which the attacker had got such a favourable troop ratio (by the way troops are nothing - just cannon meat - what is really important is firepower superiority, you need 3 times or 5 times more artillery guns and bombers and ammunition - but not troops).
 
Read the 1st post by Guaporense in this thread (interesting on military principles too):
 
 
I don't agree with everything he posted (which you will notice after reading this thread), but some of his points are quite correct.
 
On top of that it was an amphibious landing!!!!
 
Maybe you didn't notice but beaches on Okinawa were NOT defended by the Japanese.
 
And now answer yourself why they were not defended (I can tell you that it resulted from Japanese experiences from previous battles - lessons given by US Navy and US Air Force).


Edited by Domen - 26-Jun-2010 at 10:23
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