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The Navies Of Scandinavia
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Posts: 4664 		  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Navies Of Scandinavia
    Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 12:09
I know that both Scandinavian states, Denmark and Sweden, were powerful on land, and were quite capable in size. Never have I heard of their navies, only the Swedish one being defeated during 1810 by Russians and even before. Denmark, ruled such an area that navies were almost naturally needed. I do not know however if Iceland was a part of Denmark, but it seems that it wasn't. But still I must ask, if Denmark and Sweden were powerful on seas. Their adversaries, Poland and Prussia, I think were not the users of navies. So can anyone answer?
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 14:17
I suspect they spent too much of their efforts fighting each other in wars I don't know much about.
 
The Danes were certainly respected by the British, who rated them man-for-man, ship-for-ship higher then anyone else (apart from possibly, later on, the Americans). That's why they fought the second Battle of Copenhagen to take the Danish fleet out of action. (Rather like denying the French fleet to the Germans in 1940).
 
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Posts: 1943 		  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 15:15
Denmark-Norway (1536-1814) had one of the largest navies in the world, one which usually bested the Swedish. Alas, the Swedes usually thrumped the Danes on land, and the neighbouring maritime powers of especially England but also the Dutch had navies still larger, which one would suspect limited the impact of the Danish-Norwegian navy. Still, during its heyday Denmark-Norway was able to import more tea than the British East India Company and was the fifth largest slave trader in the world for quite some time.

Poland and Prussia were not maritime powers, no.
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Posts: 4221 		  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 15:41
Regenmund is quite right that Denmark was consistently the stronger naval power, but Sweden only had to concentrate on the Baltic while Denmark had transoceanic responsibilities and interests.  The Swedes managed to support their imperial presence in the Baltic quite well, and were not at a disadvantage against the Danes strategically.  The fleet was able to keep communication with the Baltic territories through the 17th c. while the Swedish empire existed.  Transport of the army and its equipment and animals often required fleets of of 100 to 150 transport ships.  A sizeable target that required a strong escort.
 
A.F. Upton, in Charles XI and Swedish Absolutism, notes that the navy in  1697 consisted of 52 naval vessels (no indicator of type), and in another article, I think by Alf Aberg, the size of the fleet under Karl XI was listed as 66 "ships of the line."  That number seems excessive to me, but it was a sizeable navy.  Although they lost battles to the Danes, they never lost dominium maris baltici.
 
 


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 31-Aug-2006 at 16:11
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 17:12
 
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Regenmund is quite right that Denmark was consistently the stronger naval power, but Sweden only had to concentrate on the Baltic while Denmark had transoceanic responsibilities and interests.  The Swedes managed to support their imperial presence in the Baltic quite well, and were not at a disadvantage against the Danes strategically.  The fleet was able to keep communication with the Baltic territories through the 17th c. while the Swedish empire existed.  Transport of the army and its equipment and animals often required fleets of of 100 to 150 transport ships.  A sizeable target that required a strong escort.
 
A.F. Upton, in Charles XI and Swedish Absolutism, notes that the navy in  1697 consisted of 52 naval vessels (no indicator of type), and in another article, I think by Alf Aberg, the size of the fleet under Karl XI was listed as 66 "ships of the line."  That number seems excessive to me, but it was a sizeable navy.  Although they lost battles to the Danes, they never lost dominium maris baltici.
 
 
 
For comparison, in 1690 the Royal Navy had 83 ships of the line, 16 frigates and 26 sloops (6th rates).
 
At the same date Rodger lists France 89 line, 32 cruisers (frigates and sloops), the Netherlands 52-21, Denmark 27-11, but doesn't give figures for Sweden.
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Posts: 1108 		  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2006 at 00:10
Originally posted by Reginmund


Poland and Prussia were not maritime powers, no.
 
I agree. Poland wasn't maritime power on the Baltic. But:
- sometimes even Poland was able to use quite numerous fleet. For example in 1592, when the King Zygmunt III Waza went to Sweden for his throne (after his father's death), Polish fleet had 80 ships.
- during Polish-Swedish war 1626-1629, Polish fleet had 15 ships (their quality is visible in the battle of Oliwa 1627, where Polish fleet defeated Swedish one)
- apart from Baltic, Poland had also 'naval forces' on the Black sea. They were Polish Cossacks who invaded Ottoman sea-coast and defeated Ottoman fleet. Cossack fleet sometimes was really huge - for example 600 boats with over 20 000 warriors. BTW, in 1635 Polish king Wladyslaw IV used Cossacks on the Baltic against the Swedes.
 
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Posts: 478 		  Quote Timotheus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2006 at 00:23
Prussia - in fact, any German state, bar Austria - never had a significant navy. The first German navy of any import came with von Tirpitz.
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Posts: 4664 		  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2006 at 10:40
Oh, thanks for so many great replies.
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Posts: 2537 		  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2006 at 12:47
Poland is one of those countries that never had good fleet. But Sweden came to Polish history as the only country which ever lost sea battle against Poland. It was battle of Oliwa in 1627. Polish fleet was commanded by admiral Arend Dickmann (Dutch). Swedish fleet was commanded by admiral Nils Stiernskld. Galeon "Tigern" flagship of Swedish admiral was captured. Other swedish ship "Solen" was sunk. The rest of Swedish fleet escaped.
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 12:12
I'm a bit stressed so I can't write so much now. Maybe I'll be back.
 
Originally posted by Reginmund

Denmark-Norway (1536-1814) had one of the largest navies in the world, one which usually bested the Swedish.
Not really. The Swedish and Danish navies were about equal in strength for most of the period, although the Danes had a better naval tradition ("Swedish sailors=farmers dipped in salt water" :D). Sometimes, the decision of battles between the nations was often on the diplomatic table: whoever had the Dutch navy on their side to throw the scales.
 
Here's a list of the Dano-Swedish wars that saw sea action.
The Nordic 7-Years' War (1560s) saw 7 sea battles; 4 Swedish victories, 2 Danish and one draw.
 
Torstensson War, 1644, battle of Fehmarn, a Danish fleet smashed by a Swedish-Dutch one.
 
Scanian War, 1670s. Swedish fleet looses a large number of ships in a series of battles against the Danes and Dutch, most notably the defeats at Kge Bay and land. Danish fleet shows it superiority in quality.
 
Great Northern War, a number of drawn battles here.
 
--
 
The Swedes controlled the Baltic sea up until the creation of the Russian navy in 1704, but not until the end of the 18th century the Swedes lost the domination of the high sea. The Russians, who mostly concentrated on shallow-draft inshore navies avoided battle with the Swedish high sea fleet until 1788.
 
The Swedish Army Fleet  (the Archipelago Fleet) was officially created in 1756 and consisted of shallow-draft vessels: galleys, gunsloops, mortar boats, gunboats as well as the specially designed archipelago frigates (turumas, hemmemas, udemas and pohjamas) etc to counter the Russian galley fleet. It consisted of 255 ships in 1790. This fleet had actually more success than the Battle Fleet, spanking the Prussians' attempt of a navy in 1759 (making them not build a navy again that century) and in 1790 it thoroughly defeated its Russian equivalent at Svensksund, sinking 60 ships and inflicting 10000 casualties while loosing 6 galleys and 300 men.
 
 
 
For comparison, in 1690 the Royal Navy had 83 ships of the line, 16 frigates and 26 sloops (6th rates).
 
At the same date Rodger lists France 89 line, 32 cruisers (frigates and sloops), the Netherlands 52-21, Denmark 27-11, but doesn't give figures for Sweden.
Don't know about 1690 but in 1700 at the outbreak of the Great Northern War the Swedish fleet consisted of 38 ships of the line, 8 frigates and a to me unknown number of other ships.
 
only the Swedish one being defeated during 1810 by Russians and even before.
There were no sea battles that year.
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Posts: 4664 		  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 12:26
I was referring to the loss of Finland. Wasn't there a seabattle at Viapori? Or atleast the Russian navy attacked Viapori, it seemed to me. The Archipelago fleet defending it. Was Ehrjenskld the creator of the Archipelago Fleet?
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 18:32
Originally posted by rider

I was referring to the loss of Finland. Wasn't there a seabattle at Viapori? Or atleast the Russian navy attacked Viapori, it seemed to me. The Archipelago fleet defending it. Was Ehrjenskld the creator of the Archipelago Fleet?
 
There was the Gauntlet at Viborg in 1790. The Swedish fleets, both the high sea fleet and army fleet, were trapped and blockaded in the Viborg bay. The Swedish fleets did manage to escape, but lost 5 ships of the line in the progress (all but of them due to running aground in the narrows - the last was lost when a drunk fire ship captain hit a friendly ship...).
 
There was no sea warfare during the Finnish war of 1808-1809, since the Russian fleet had basicly rotted away and the rest was trapped in port by the Swedish fleet, with a large British supporting fleet.
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Posts: 4664 		  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 03:48
Oh, thanks for clearing things up.
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 01:01

I know that when Sweden was in major power (Around the time when Peter I was in power) the Baltic Fleet was quite impressive since Russia had to ally with other several nations to defeat it.

Sorry, Scandinavian history is not my forte.
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Posts: 0 		  Quote Riruik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 14:19
actualy the Main navy of the Denmark-Norway navy was Norwegien.
 
Norway alone had a larger navy then Denmark and Sweden combine.
 
 
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Posts: 4262 		  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 17:21

Welcome to the forum Rirurik - good to see yet another Scandinavian here.

You (and others) might enjoy to read THIS comprehensive description of the Danish Navy and its battles.

The link is directing you to the naval history before 1801 - but the site also includes articles to present day, using the menu on the right.
 
~ Northman
 
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Posts: 353 		  Quote Joinville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2007 at 11:10
Apparently some Swedish naval military history buff has gone to the trouble of chronologically listing all major Swedish warships serving until the 19th c:
One must not insult the future.
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2007 at 15:13
Originally posted by rider

I know that both Scandinavian states, Denmark and Sweden, were powerful on land, and were quite capable in size. Never have I heard of their navies, only the Swedish one being defeated during 1810 by Russians and even before. Denmark, ruled such an area that navies were almost naturally needed. I do not know however if Iceland was a part of Denmark, but it seems that it wasn't. But still I must ask, if Denmark and Sweden were powerful on seas. Their adversaries, Poland and Prussia, I think were not the users of navies. So can anyone answer?
 
Danish fleet was quite powerful and they even dominated the sea during Danish-Prussians wars in the 19th century.
 
Danish also had colonies as far as Caribbean, Gana and India; so the Navy was an essential part of the whole thing. Iceland did belonged to Denmark. Greenland is a part of Danish territory now.
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Posts: 0 		  Quote Riruik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2007 at 17:28
Originally posted by Sarmat12

[QUOTE=rider]I know that both Scandinavian states,
 
Danish also had colonies as far as Caribbean, Gana and India; so the Navy was an essential part of the whole thing. Iceland did belonged to Denmark. Greenland is a part of Danish territory now.
 
 
wel Greenland and Iceland was origanialy Norwegien. But the Swedish did not take them when we got in Union with Sweden in 1814.
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 08:02
Originally posted by Joinville

Apparently some Swedish naval military history buff has gone to the trouble of chronologically listing all major Swedish warships serving until the 19th c:


There was a lot of weird spellings there; in any case I don't think it's a complete list.

I don't think there are any complete English listings unfortunately. If you read Swedish this guy has made an index of most - if not all -  documented historical ships of the Swedish Navy and Army Fleet: http://fatburen.org/jan-erik.karlsson/ftgidx.htm

The Swedish wikipedia has quite an extensive list of the modern Swedish ships also: http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lista_%C3%B6ver_svenska_%C3%B6rlogsfartyg

Nowadays it's just a coastal defense force instead of the force-projection (actually the duty of the Swedish navy was mostly to guard and ensure safe transports and supply lines between the different Swedish provinces around the Baltic sea) it once was though.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 10-Aug-2007 at 08:14
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