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gok_toruk View Drop Down
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Posts: 1831 		  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Mongols
    Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 13:30

Barbar; see, I can be up, to anytime you may think. So, stop being rude. The way you think mine is rough, we think yours is rough. We're not certain cause we weren't in the past. We're just trying to reach a conclusion. So, what's the reason to be offensive, huh?

I replied Blitz by what a Mongol himself believed. The Mongol I gave you his email address and his thoughts told you what you should know. Re-read the posts.
    

Edited by gok_toruk - 07-Sep-2006 at 13:36
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Posts: 0 		  Quote THE_UNBANNABLE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 22:10
famous quote from a mongol dude:
Hey...
 


Edited by Seko - 07-Sep-2006 at 22:21
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 22:19
Originally posted by barbar

 
Why don't you respond blitz's posts? He/she refuted you guys' stupid claims with solid proofs.  Old Mongolian might be quite different from Halkha Mongolian, but you should make clear which period is this Old Mongolian is refering to? You really need some books on logic.
 
BTW, Akskl's comment aren't worthy of replying. He comes here once in a while, repeat his nonsense then leave. 
 
You are right someway.  Akskl is doing these comments for years, maybe last 5 years as i know. His card are following:-
1. - Language issue, Mongols and turks communicated each other. According to his assumption  Mongols/ Chinggis were Turkic. But many don't so because there many facts. - as Blitz and i put some old mongol, modern mongol differences, changes. But pro-akskl don't interest or comment on those at all.
 
Linguists should study how the language developed and changed as time goes by. Even turkic speaking nations have hard time understanding each other too- crymean tatar, kazan tataar understand each other hardly. Kazakhs, Uzbeks or Yakuts languages have significant differences.
 
2. - Name of the clans are overlapping each other. For example khongirad or jalair- Modern Mongolia, Buryat Mongols, Kazakhs and even Lithuanian Tataars have these clan names. In these case, a scholar should follow the earliest mentioned sources as origin. Others who have same name are descendants/ maybe subjects of original clan that carry the name.   
 
Also Akskl accuse Mongolians changed names of land which mentioned in Secret History. I would say names changes as time goes by according to historical accounts or loss records. But still there are lots of names stay the same.
 
3.- Khalkha Mongol - Akskl insists on Khalkhas are something completely different than Chinggisid Mongols. That is not true. There are lots of record books in Mongolian language that support Khalkha Mongols were more like connecting body of various Mongol clans. Even Sartuul ( descendants of Khwaresm- its Mongol name is Sartaul) tanguds and Urianhai tribes were first Khalkha formation along with many Mongol tribes.
Those historical accounts should be translated into english. There significant number of material in Russian language. Unfortunatly AE does not support cyrillic fonts.
 
 
 
Under Dayan Khan, who is direct line of Khubilai Khaan, the Khalkha Formation was organized as one of three tmen of the Left Wing. Dayan Khan installed the fifth son Alchu Bolad and the eleventh son Geresenje on the Khalkha. The former became the founder of the Five Khalkha (tabun otuγ qalq-a) of Southern Mongolia and the latter became the founder of the Seven Khalkha (doluγan otuγ qalq-a) of the Northern Mongolia. They were called Inner Khalkha and Outer Khalkha respectively, by the Manchus.

Mongolian chronicles called Geresenje as "Khong Tayiji of the Jalayir," which indicates that the core part of the Khalkha were descendants of the Jalayir tribe. By extension, some scholars consider that the Khalkha had a close connection with the Five Ulus of the Left Wing of the former Yuan Dynasty, which was led by the five powerful tribes of Jalayir, Khunggirad, Ikires, Uruud and Mangghud.

The Five Khalkha consisted of five tribes called Jarud, Baarin, Khunggirad, Bayaud and jiyed. They lived around the Shira Mren valley east of the Khingan Mountains. They clashed with but were eventually conquered by the rising Manchus. The Five Khalkha except for the Jarud and the Baarin were organized into the Eight Banners. Note that Khalkha Left Banner of Juu Uda League and Khalkha Right Banner of Ulaanchab League were offshoots of the Seven Khalkha.

The Seven Khalkha expanded into central Mongolia by absorbing the Uriyangkhai, who rebelled after Dayan Khan's death. They were involved in regular fights against the Oyirad in the west. Geresenje's descendants formed the houses of Jasaghtu Khan, Tsiyet Khan and Chechen Khan. They preserved their independence until they sought help from the Kangxi Emperor of the Manchu Qing Dynasty when they were expelled by the Dzungar leader Galdan in 1688. In 1725 the Yongzheng Emperor gave Tsering independence from the house of Tsiyet Khan. It was the beginning of Sayin Noyan Aymagh.

The Khalkha led the Mongol independence movement in the 20th century. After enduring countless hardships, they established the independent state of Mongolia in northern Mongolia.

 
 
 
 
 
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Seko View Drop Down
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Posts: 8595 		  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 22:20
Arash (THE UNBANNABLE), How many different user names and computers have you used up in your school? Keep on trying. Cause we'll let you hang out with us for entertainment purposes. Then we'll just ban you as usual. Bye for now!
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Posts: 103 		  Quote blitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 19:59
You guys should better regard primary sources when you are discussing about history.
 
It's nonsense to assert that the 13th century mongols were turkic. There are too many sources which prove that they(mongols) spoke mongolian language.
 
One example is Ilkhan Arghun's letter to the Pope Nicholas IV, written in Mongolian language, in 1290.   
  
(This is not arabic script! Turn 90 to your right hand.)
 
 


Edited by blitz - 08-Sep-2006 at 20:03
Road to wisdom: err, err and err. But less, less and less!
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Jonon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 13:25
Hi Blitz. It is definitely old Mongolian Script. Interesting what would be the content.
 
 
 
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Posts: 132 		  Quote Akskl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 00:56
The so-called old Mongolian script was taken by Genghis Khan from Turkic Naimans whos chancellary was lead by a Turkic Uyghur - Tatatonga (his name in distorted Chinese phonetics).   
The above presented letter can be read in old Turkic language.
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Posts: 103 		  Quote blitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 01:15
Originally posted by Akskl

The so-called old Mongolian script was taken by Genghis Khan from Turkic Naimans whos chancellary was lead by a Turkic Uyghur - Tatatonga (his name in distorted Chinese phonetics).   
The above presented letter can be read in old Turkic language.
 
LOL
 
Germans adopted their script from romans. It doesn't mean that germa language is roman.
 
You need some logic, my friend!  
Road to wisdom: err, err and err. But less, less and less!
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Posts: 1831 		  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 04:34

He's talking about the language. He means only the alphabet is in Mongolian script.
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Posts: 103 		  Quote blitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2006 at 07:07
Originally posted by Akskl

The above presented letter can be read in old Turkic language.
My friend, don't be obstinate! This letter is written in mongolian language.
 
The first 3 sentences:
 
 
 
Transcription:
...busuda aliba irgen ber-n nom bichig ier ... jalbiraqu bui. misiqa-iin nom tengri dor taigci nen bui. edge il-khan misiqa-iin nom dur ortugai hemej ileceq chi.
 
modern mongolian:
...busad aliva irgen riin nom bichigeer ... zalbirakh bui. misikhagiin nom tengert daigch nen bui. edge il-khan misikhagiin nomd ortugai khemeej ilgeeje chi.
 
Translation: 
...every nation ... believes in its own book and script. It's true that the book of Misikha[=Christianity] is famous under the heaven. Now you have sent to me that Il-Khan should believe in Misikha's book.
 
Road to wisdom: err, err and err. But less, less and less!
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2006 at 07:16
I am confused with all this. Were the original turks mongoloid or had West Asian features as in Turkey proper. They could have been only one thing. If Genghis was a turk, then most of present day turks with West Asian features would not be turks & vice versa.
PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn
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Posts: 103 		  Quote blitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2006 at 09:27
Well, turks are much mixed with people of iranian stock.  But there are still turks who are not mixed, for example,tuva people.
 
  
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Posts: 161 		  Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2006 at 10:45
A script from another nation can be adapted phonetically for one's own language so its not necessary to learn Turkic to read Mongolian script as the Uighur script was adapted for Mongolian language not Turkic.
 
Uighur script's ancestor is the Aramaic script which influenced the Sogdhian script and in turn the Uighur script, would you say that the Turks spoke Aramaic then to read the Uighur script? No!!
 
Either way, the Uighurs did a great service to the Mongols.
 
 
Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign
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Posts: 1831 		  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2006 at 11:53
I'm not saying these are Turkic; but Blitz, could you please help me translate some specific words?
 
See, the first sentence would be, in Turkic:
 
'qasy budun br nom bychyk iyer yalbyraq erken.
 
 'irgen' was never (isn't either) a common word in Turkic. Also instead of verbal form 'jalbyraqu', 'yalbyraq', the subject form is used. 
 
The second sentence:
 
 
'Misiqa-nyng nomy Tangry tayqayin nken erken.
 
Turkic use 'bar' instead of 'bui'. But in sentences like this, 'erken' is more suitable.
 
Now, could you please tell me, what are words 'oturgay', 'hemeju',ilgeeje (chi)'?


Edited by gok_toruk - 14-Sep-2006 at 12:01
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Posts: 228 		  Quote Turk Nomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 07:31
Originally posted by blitz

Well, turks are much mixed with people of iranian stock.  But there are still turks who are not mixed, for example,tuva people.
 
  
Also mongols,ı think there aren't any mongols didn't mixed with Turk blood.
 
There was a brotherhood within Turks and Mongols.Some people think we are the same nation!=)
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 08:04
Originally posted by Turk Nomad

Originally posted by blitz

Well, turks are much mixed with people of iranian stock.  But there are still turks who are not mixed, for example,tuva people.
 
  
Also mongols,ı think there aren't any mongols didn't mixed with Turk blood.
 
There was a brotherhood within Turks and Mongols.Some people think we are the same nation!=)


Do the tuvas look west asian or mongoloid ? Also how far does this brotherhood go? Do the Mongolians also think similarly. How many consular offices do turkey & mongolia have in each other countries. How many turkish tourists visit Mongolia each year & vice versa. What is the trade volume between the two countries. Do the citizens of turkey & mongolia need passports to go to each other's countries ? If they are brotherhood then they should not need one. Like India-Nepal or India - Bhutan
PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn
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Posts: 1919 		  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 10:19
don't mix turkey's populatin with turkic. There are turkmens(ethnic turks in anatolia were first called turkmens) with locals like laz kurds greeks assyran etc. and in the west lot of peoplefrom the balkan. I think you should look in the past. the turkic countries don't have time for other people they have there own problem.
 
We were in the mongol hordes and vice versa. Mongols were just another tribe back then.
 
 
btw you asked like what tuvas look well they look mongol not mongoloid but realy mongol  slight difference thow.
 
 
you should listen to HUUN HUUR TU rrealy good throat singing
 
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 00:34
And what about commerce between them etc.. Are they also related.
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Posts: 132 		  Quote Akskl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 11:36
Russian historian Rassadin thinks that language of the "Secret History" is much closer to Turkic than to Mongol one:

...язык "Сокровенного сказания..." стоит гораздо ближе к языку древних и средневековых тюрков, чем современные монгольские языки...

Translation:
...language of the "Secret History" is much closer to language of ancient and medieval Turks than modern Mongol languages...

http://www.philology.ru/linguistics4/rassadin-95.htm


Please read about Genghis Khan's so-called "Mongols" who all spoke TURKIC language (click on the right edge of the pages and read Chapter 1):

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0631189491/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-8945389-6424103#reader-link

Edited by Akskl - 17-Sep-2006 at 11:47
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Posts: 8595 		  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 11:40
Akskl, you have presented the link to that book before. Instead of reverting to the same old stuff, feel free to add more of your knowldge on the subject. Thanks.
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