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deadkenny
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Topic: Top 100 Generals Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 15:59 |
The French attack commenced at 2pm. Wellington was present, in command, by 3pm. The battle continued until about 9pm (this was a few days prior to the longest day of the year). So Orange was in command for the first hour of a 7 hour long battle. On that basis I do not see your characterization of Orange having been in command and Wellington being 'late' as particularly accurate.
Originally posted by antonioM
They can be called Russian and Austrian, because the majority of these armies were. You can't claim that the majority of Wellington's army was British because the Germans formed 45% of them. They also did most of the fighting along with Bluchers own troops. The British formed only 25-30% of Wellington's army. They are not in the majority so the army can't be called British. |
So now the British are down to as low as 25%? Even the source which you provided earlier gave them 'credit' for 35%. Regarding the composition of the other armies, do you have specific information on this, or are you just assuming? In particular, what percentage of the Austrian army was actually 'Austrian' (I.e. excluding Hungarians, Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenians, Croats, Serbs, Poles, Italians...)? In any case, the Dutch / German contingents were integrated into Wellington's army, so it is still legit to refer to the collective whole as the 'British army'. It was Britain's national contingent, regardless of what it was composed of. In contrast, Blucher's force was a distinct separate contingent from that of Wellington's. So it would not be appropriate to refer to the combined forces as either British or Prussian.
Originally posted by antonioM
Sigh, STOP REFERRING TO THE ARMY AS BRITISH. |
Only if / when you provide a compelling reason for me to do so.
Originally posted by antonioM
As I have said before countless times, that was not Wellington's objective. I will only repeat this one more time: His objective was to support Blucher. Because of Ney, he failed, so Ney won and he lost. I copied and pasted the relevant sections from the link above |
I still don't follow your logic here, beyond simply arguing that the website says the French 'won' so therefore they did. Ney's original force heavily outnumbered the original British force facing them. Ney, plus d'Erlon's I Corps outnumbered the total British force that was present at Quatre Bras by the end of the day. Wellington 'supported' Blucher by engaging a superior force, denying it the use of the lateral road to hit Blucher's forces at Ligny in the flank and preventing those French forces from engaging at Ligny at all. It just seems to me that you've set an impossible objective for the British to have achieved and then claim a French victory on the basis the British having failed to achieve that impossible objective. I have already agreed that in the manouevering up to June 15th, Napoleon had gained an advantageous position between the British and Prussians. Wellington himself admitted that 'Boney' had 'stole a march' on him. On the 16th the onus was on Napoleon to take advantage of that position. A true French victory on June 16th would have consisted of Ney gaining the crossroads and the use of the lateral road early, then sending forces, plus d'Erlons I Corps down the road to take Blucher in the flank. Since Ney did not gain the use of the lateral road during the 16th, failed to have any of his force or the bulk of d'Erlons I Corps engage at Ligny and failed to effectively 'defeat' Wellington I don't see that the French achieved any significant result at Quatre Bras that enhanced their chances in the overall campaign. They no doubt won a victory at Ligny, although not a total victory. However, the outcome at Quatre Bras did not assist in the outcome at Ligny, nor did it impair the ability of the British army to resist in the subsequent phase of the overall campaign.
Originally posted by antonioM
Ney had little to reproach himself for in the day's proceedings. Thrown into his command at the eleventh hour, with only three infantry divisions and small cavalry force, he had by skill and courage succeeded in fulfilling the intent of his original orders: he had prevented Wellington from aiding the Prussians for the whole of the 16th. At Ligny the Prussians stood alone and were crushed.
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You left off this part of the summary, from your own source:
American military historian, Colonel John Elting writes: "Had Davout, instead of Ney, commanded Napoleon's left wing, there can be little doubt that Quatre Bras would have been a French victory." (Elting - "Swords Around a Throne" p 644)
The 'would have been' appears to suggest that perhaps, as it was, the result was not such a clear cut French victory. Since Ney's original force heavily outnumbered the British army at Quatre Bras, there was practically no prospect for the British defeating Ney and then intervening on the battlefield at Ligny. As it was the British managed to tie up Ney's force all day, prevented Ney from reinforcing the French at Ligny and forced Ney to call upon d'Erlon's I Corps, which then prevented the bulk of that formation from intervening at Ligny either. As I mentioned before, there was no possibilty of Wellington positioning his entire force at Ligny, because that would then allow the French (Ney in particular) to position themselves on his LoC. What happened at Ligny was the result of the fight between the Prussians and the French forces there. With Ney's force, plus d'Erlon's I Corps not engaged at Ligny, there was no way for Wellington to intervene there. I admit there are plenty of websites that will 'score' Quatre Bras as a 'French victory'. However, in terms of the analysis of what happened and what impact it had on the subsequent campaign you've not made any argument (to paraphrase you've said 'it was a French victory because this website says so'). Given how heavily outnumbered the British were at the start of Quatre Bras, it was impossible for them to achieve what you've implied they needed to in order to consider the battle a British victory. In that case, the issue was already decided before the Battle of Quatre Bras was even fought, as a result of the manoeuvering that took place up to the 15th.
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"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
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DSMyers1
Colonel
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Joined: 09-Aug-2004
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Posts: 603
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Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 16:31 |
Version 7 Alpha:
Rank |
Name |
Died |
Country/People |
1 |
Alexander
the Great |
323
BC |
Macedonia |
2 |
Napoleon
Bonaparte |
1821 |
France |
3 |
Temujin
(Genghis Khan) |
1227 |
Mongols |
4 |
Hannibal
Barca |
183
BC |
Carthage |
5 |
John
Churchill (Duke of Marlborough) |
1722 |
England |
6 |
Aleksandr
Suvorov |
1800 |
Russia |
7 |
Jan
ika |
1424 |
Bohemia |
8 |
Belisarios |
565 |
Byzantines |
9 |
Timur |
1405 |
Turks |
10 |
Gustav
II Adolf |
1632 |
Sweden |
11 |
Scipio
Africanus the Older |
183
BC |
Rome |
12 |
Gaius
Julius Caesar |
44
BC |
Rome |
13 |
Subotai |
1248 |
Mongols |
14 |
Frederick
II of Prussia |
1786 |
Prussia |
15 |
Eugene
of Savoy |
1736 |
Austria |
16 |
Sir
Arthur Wellesley (Duke of Wellington) |
1852 |
England |
17 |
Khalid
ibn al-Walid |
642 |
Arabs |
18 |
Henri
de La Tour d'Auvergne de Turenne |
1675 |
France |
19 |
Heraclius |
641 |
Byzantines |
20 |
Cyrus
the Great |
529
BC |
Persia |
21 |
Maurice,
comte de Saxe |
1750 |
France |
22 |
Raimondo
Montecuccoli |
1680 |
Austria |
23 |
Philip
II of Macedon |
336
BC |
Macedonia |
24 |
Hn
Xn |
196
BC |
China |
25 |
Heinz
Wilhelm Guderian |
1954 |
Germany |
26 |
Selim
I |
1520 |
Ottomans |
27 |
Gaius
Marius |
86
BC |
Rome |
28 |
George
Kastrioti (Skanderbeg) |
1468 |
Albania |
29 |
Nadir Shah |
1747 |
Persia |
30 |
Robert Clive |
1774 |
England |
31 |
Erich
von Manstein |
1973 |
Germany |
32 |
Louis
Nicholas Davout |
1823 |
France |
33 |
Stefan
cel Mare (Stephen III) |
1504 |
Moldavia |
34 |
Gonzalo
Fernndez de Crdoba (El Gran Capitn) |
1515 |
Spain |
35 |
Robert
E. Lee |
1870 |
Confederate |
36 |
Helmuth
Karl Bernhard von Moltke |
1891 |
Prussia |
37 |
Chandragupta
Maurya |
298
BC |
India |
38 |
Maurice
of Nassau |
1625 |
Netherlands |
39 |
Louis
II de Bourbon, Prince de Cond |
1686 |
France |
40 |
Tiglath-Pileser
III |
727
BC |
Assyria |
41 |
Thutmose
III |
ca
1540 BC |
Egypt |
42 |
Trần
Hưng Đạo |
1300 |
Vietnam |
43 |
Shivaji
Bhosle |
1680 |
Maratha |
44 |
Winfield
Scott |
1866 |
United
States |
45 |
Lucius
Cornelius Sulla |
78
BC |
Rome |
46 |
Mehmed
II |
1481 |
Ottomans |
47 |
Yue Fei |
1142 |
China |
48 |
Babur |
1530 |
Mughal |
49 |
Tokugawa
Ieyasu |
1616 |
Japan |
50 |
Thomas
J. (Stonewall) Jackson |
1863 |
Confederate |
51 |
Janos
Hunyadi |
1456 |
Hungary |
52 |
Duke
of Parma (Alessandro Farnese) |
1592 |
Spain |
53 |
Leo
III the Isaurian |
741 |
Byzantines |
54 |
Hamilcar
Barca |
228
BC |
Carthage |
55 |
Suleiman
I |
1566 |
Ottomans |
56 |
Nurhaci |
1626 |
Manchu |
57 |
Paul
Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck |
1964 |
Germany |
58 |
Charles
XII |
1718 |
Sweden |
59 |
Oda
Nobunaga |
1582 |
Japan |
60 |
Francesco
I Sforza |
1466 |
Milan |
61 |
Stanisław
Koniecpolski |
1646 |
Poland |
62 |
Claude-Louis-Hector
de Villars |
1734 |
France |
63 |
Simeon
I the Great |
927 |
Bulgaria |
64 |
Louis Joseph de Bourbon, duc de
Vendme |
1712 |
France |
65 |
Aurelian
(Lucius Domitius Aurelianus) |
275 |
Rome |
66 |
Vo
Nguyen Giap |
|
Vietnam |
67 |
Epaminondas |
362
BC |
Greece |
68 |
Toyotomi
Hideyoshi |
1598 |
Japan |
69 |
Jan
III Sobieski |
1696 |
Poland |
70 |
Georgy
Zhukov |
1974 |
Russia |
71 |
Qi
Jiguang |
1588 |
China |
72 |
Alexius
I Komnenos |
1118 |
Byzantines |
73 |
Constantine
I the Great |
337 |
Rome |
74 |
Albrecht
Wallenstein |
1634 |
Austria |
75 |
Aleksandr
Vasilevsky |
1977 |
Russia |
76 |
Robert
Guiscard |
1085 |
Normandy |
77 |
Erwin
Rommel |
1944 |
Germany |
78 |
Emperor
Taizong of Tang (Lĭ ShMn) |
649 |
China |
79 |
Shaka
Zulu |
1828 |
Zulu |
80 |
Erich
Ludendorff |
1937 |
Germany |
81 |
Alp
Arslan |
1072 |
Turks |
82 |
Baibars |
1277 |
Mamluke |
83 |
Charlemagne |
814 |
France |
84 |
Franois Henri de
Montmorency-Bouteville (Luxembourg) |
1695 |
France |
85 |
Jebe |
1225 |
Mongols |
86 |
David |
965
BC |
Israel |
87 |
Lautaro
(toqui) |
1557 |
Mapuche |
88 |
Andr
Massna |
1817 |
France |
89 |
Ulysses
Simpson Grant |
1885 |
United
States |
90 |
Kangxi |
1722 |
China |
91 |
Carl
Gustav Mannerheim |
1951 |
Finland |
92 |
Flavius
Stilicho |
408 |
Rome |
93 |
Edmund
Allenby, 1st Viscount Allenby |
1936 |
England |
94 |
Xu Da |
1385 |
China |
95 |
Nguyen Hue |
1792 |
Vietnam |
96 |
Robert
the Bruce |
1329 |
Scotland |
97 |
James
Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose |
1650 |
England |
98 |
Mustafa
Kemal |
1938 |
Turkey |
99 |
Oliver
Cromwell |
1658 |
England |
100 |
Naresuan |
1605 |
Ayutthaya |
Edited by DSMyers1 - 05-Apr-2008 at 16:45
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DSMyers1
Colonel
Suspended
Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 603
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Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 16:43 |
Approximate to do list from version 6 to version 7:
Europa
Universalis Forums: |
|
Jan Smuts |
|
Napoleon Down |
No |
Turenne Down |
OK |
Alexander Down |
No |
Zhukov Up |
OK |
Grant Up |
No |
Sherman Up |
No |
Sun Tzu off |
OK |
Subotai Up |
OK |
Edward IV On |
Still on the list to do |
Arnold On |
No |
Patton Off |
OK |
Rommel Up (and Down) |
Whatever |
Constantine and Basil II Up |
1 up, 1 down |
Sforza Up |
OK |
Frederick above Wellington and Eugene |
OK |
Karl XII Up |
OK |
Shaka Up |
OK |
Mannerheim Up |
OK |
Hindenburg On |
No |
Aetius On |
No |
Ludendorf On |
OK |
Max Hoffmann On |
No |
Cao Cao On |
OK, sort of |
Xu Da On |
OK |
Wallace On |
No |
Bruce On |
OK |
Pachacuti On |
OK, sort of |
Quizquiz On |
OK, sort of |
|
|
AllEmpires Forums: |
|
Suvorov above Napoleon and Hannibal |
No |
Top 10 too Euro-centric |
Sorry |
Davout Down |
OK |
Manstein Down |
OK |
Mahmud of Ghazni Down |
Off |
Rundstedt Down |
OK |
Marlborough down |
No |
Wellington Up |
No |
Suvorov above Marlborough |
No |
suvorov Down |
No |
Baibars Up |
No |
Timur above Genghis (Genghis only
administrator) |
No |
Shivaji On (good) |
OK |
Nikphores > Basil II |
OK, but both off |
Alp Arslan On |
OK |
Allenby Off |
No, but down |
Ataturk On over Manstein |
On |
Need more Assyrians |
No |
Sher Shah Suri Off |
OK |
Nathanael Greene Off |
OK |
Sonni Ali Off |
OK |
Edward III Off |
OK |
Shaka Zulu Up |
OK |
Jebe On |
OK |
Alp Arslan Up |
OK |
Archduke Charles Up? |
No |
Pyrrhus Down |
OK |
Henry V Maybe off |
OK |
Tilly Up |
No |
Luxembourg Up |
OK |
David Off |
No |
Sun Tzu Off |
OK |
Bayan On? |
No |
Chormaqan On? |
No |
Louis William, Margrave of Baden,
TurkenLouis On |
Still on the list to do |
Archduke Charles Off |
OK |
Manstein Up |
No |
Ataturk ON |
OK |
Black Prince ON |
Still on the list to do |
Cromwell Above Edward, Henry |
OK |
Maha Thihathura On |
Still on the list to do |
Chakri Naruseun On |
Still on the list to do |
William Slim On |
No |
Ridgeway On |
No |
Marshall On |
Still on the list to do |
Ranjit Singh On |
Still on the list to do |
Moctezuma On |
Still on the list to do |
Bolivar ON |
Still on the list to do |
Baji Rao I On |
Still on the list to do |
Jose de San Martin On |
Still on the list to do |
Philip II Up |
OK |
Wellington > Frederick >
Marlborough |
No |
Charles V On |
Still on the list to do |
Vo Nguyen Giap On !!! |
OK!!! |
Thutmose III Down |
OK |
Manstein Down |
OK |
Allenby down |
OK |
Slim maybe 90s |
No |
Guru Gobind Singh On |
Still on the list to do |
de Saxe above Eugene of Savoy (to 16th
place) |
No, but Up |
Bagration into top 20 (!) |
No, but Up |
Edited by DSMyers1 - 05-Apr-2008 at 16:45
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Samara
Janissary
Joined: 26-Dec-2007
Location: Russian Federation
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
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Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 17:15 |
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"All is loose, just the honour"
Francis in the battle of Pavia
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deadkenny
General
Joined: 21-Aug-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 994
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Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 17:39 |
I believe I will continue my practice of not commenting directly on relative rankings. However I will gladly participate in the discussion of the merits (or lack thereof) of the various commanders being discussed. With the intro of Giap to the list, I would like to see more from his proponents, beyond simply that he 'defeated' the Americans. To what extent does he deserve 'credit' for the communist guerrila campaign in the south (Viet Cong)? I do not give him credit for 'brilliant' leadership in his 'conventional' offensives. For example:
Dien Bien Phu (1954) - the French took up a 'suicidal' position. Giap eventually crushed them, suffering massive losses in the process. Given the poor position the French were in, and the numerical advantage of the Vietnamese forces, I do not believe that the final outcome does Giap much credit. The final outcome was pretty much decided when the Vietnamese 'manhandled' their heavy guns over the mountains. After that it was pretty much just of question of what losses the French would be able to inflict on the Vietnamese, and the losses were heavy.
Tet Offensive (1968) - Military disaster for the Vietnamese communists. Unintended political 'win' in the US (unless someone wants to argue that the political consequences in the US were an objective from the start).
Easter Offensive (1972) - Miltary disaster for the Vietnamese communists. Given the more limited American engagement, and 'Vietnamesization' which left the south to do more of the fighting, the results were more favourable for the communists than was the case with Tet. Still, clearly not a military victory - resources for the North were not unlimited and sustaining such massive losses was not viable in the long run.
Ho Chi Minh Offensive (1975) - The only clearly successful conventional military campaign which does credit to Giap's reputation, IMHO. Somewhat 'discounted' by the fact that the relatively weak south had been practically left to their own devices by the US at this stage.
Edited by deadkenny - 05-Apr-2008 at 17:45
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"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
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Al Jassas
Arch Duke
Joined: 07-Aug-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1810
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Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 17:57 |
Giap doesn't deserve to be on the list. Leftist media made him the hero he isn't. If the US was really committed to distroying the north Vietnamese they would have done so. The French thought they were the only people who won WWII and sent a small force to.. Vietnam a mistake they didn't make in Algeria (where they had 400 thousand troops, 10 times more than the rebels).
I gave you suggestion DS what happened to them.
Also, Muhammad II should not be on the list either because he lost so many battles and failed to crush the rebellion of Kastrioti. He always had good field commanders and strategists and an overwhelming superiority in numbers. Murad IV should replace him.
Alp Arslan should be higher and Muhammad of Ghor should be included as well.
Zhukov should be higher, he faced a new enemy with innovative strategies and innovation should be key in determining a good general.
Al-Jassas
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DSMyers1
Colonel
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Joined: 09-Aug-2004
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Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 18:54 |
Originally posted by Al Jassas
Giap doesn't deserve to be on the list. Leftist media made him the hero he isn't. If the US was really committed to distroying the north Vietnamese they would have done so. The French thought they were the only people who won WWII and sent a small force to.. Vietnam a mistake they didn't make in Algeria (where they had 400 thousand troops, 10 times more than the rebels).
I gave you suggestion DS what happened to them.
Also, Muhammad II should not be on the list either because he lost so many battles and failed to crush the rebellion of Kastrioti. He always had good field commanders and strategists and an overwhelming superiority in numbers. Murad IV should replace him.
Alp Arslan should be higher and Muhammad of Ghor should be included as well.
Zhukov should be higher, he faced a new enemy with innovative strategies and innovation should be key in determining a good general.
Al-Jassas |
1. I think Giap did a very good job in the organization and strategy of the Vietnamese. Obviously, his conventional battles did not turn out so well, but he did win two wars against far superior foes--and credit must be given for that. I'll move him down, however. 2. The suggestions I've worked with were from before yours; in the final version 7 list they will be on. 3. Mehmed II off. Please, please, PLEASE give a comprehensive ranking of the Ottomans. I've needed one for a while. What I have now is:
26 |
Selim I |
1520 |
Ottomans |
46 |
Mehmed
II |
1481 |
Ottomans |
55 |
Suleiman
I |
1566 |
Ottomans |
I should probably have more. Please rank them! 4. Alp Arslan and Muhammad of Ghor: (Ghor=Ghazni?) Mahmud of Ghazni is at 101 right now. Alp Arslan is on the way up. 5. Zhukov higher? Are you sure? He's already #3 in WWII.
Edited by DSMyers1 - 05-Apr-2008 at 19:11
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DSMyers1
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Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 19:13 |
Originally posted by Samara
So american vision.
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The Paradox Forums are about as multinational as AllEmpires--but far more Euro-centric. There are more Europeans posting over there than Americans, I think.
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Al Jassas
Arch Duke
Joined: 07-Aug-2007
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Posts: 1810
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Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 20:34 |
Hello DS
Muhammad of Ghor is different than Mahmud of Ghazni, there is a 100 years interval between them:
He hailed from Ghor or Ghur, a province in Afghanistan. He distroyed the remnants of the Ghaznavids, took control of current day Pakistan and defeated the Khwarizmids. He reached as far as Bihar, much farther than what Mahmud reached, and defeated the Indian Rajputs. If he lived long enough he might have stopped the mongols because he left a powerful army that defeated them despite much less commanders were in charge.
If you want to rank the Ottomans, I suggest the next few general based on my opinion:
1- Selim I, he was the greatest Ottoman general without doubt.
2- Ghazi Evrenos, he was responsible for keeping Ottoman holdings in Europe and conquered many lands especially Greece and the Balkans and helped Muhammad I in regainin the throne.
3- Murad IV: He rebuilt the Ottoman army, defeated the Persians and rebels and was going to reform the army if he didn't die at an early age.
4- Sulaiman the magnificent.
There are others like zaganos pasha but I don't know much about them to decide.
Al-Jassas
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Cyrus Shahmiri
Administrator
King of Kings
Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240
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Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 20:51 |
Would you please tell me What makes Alexander greater than Shapur I?
Alexander just defeated a weak Persian king, more than it? He even couldn't kill or capture this king, could he?
Shapur, as a general, defeatd and killed one of the greatest Parthian kings and conquered Parthian Empire and as a king he overthrew Kushan Empire forever and captured Kashgar (western China), he also defeated Romans in all battles and killed or captured three Roman Emperors, in the north he conquered southern Russia and Georgia (Iberia) and in the south he captured the Mazun region of Arabia.
Part of an inscription of Shapur: "We attacked the Roman empire and we destroyed an army of 60,000 men at Barbalissus [in Syria]. Syria and its surrounding areas we burned, devastated and plundered. In this one campaign we captured of the Roman empire 37 cities, including Antioch, the capital of Syria, ..."
Was there really a general greater than Shapur?
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Paul
General
AE Immoderator
Joined: 21-Aug-2004
Location: Hyperborea
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Posts: 952
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Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 21:52 |
A few of the country names of generals are incorrect and others inconsistent.
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Jonathan4290
Pretorian
Joined: 03-Mar-2008
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 185
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Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 21:58 |
Originally posted by deadkenny
I believe I will continue my practice of not commenting directly on relative rankings. However I will gladly participate in the discussion of the merits (or lack thereof) of the various commanders being discussed. With the intro of Giap to the list, I would like to see more from his proponents, beyond simply that he 'defeated' the Americans. To what extent does he deserve 'credit' for the communist guerrila campaign in the south (Viet Cong)? |
A fair request. I will organize this post by conventional battle only because it is easiest, although not the most accurate presentation of Giap's abilities.
Dien Bien Phu (1954): The French did take up a suicidal position but only did so becasue Giap forced them to do so. The French General Navarre constantly tried to destroy Giap's forces but Giap withdrew whenever Navarre massed forces, harassed whenever possible, attacked when Navarre spread his forces and prusued when Navarre withdrew as Sun Tzu's work states. Navarre only struck at Dien Bien Phu after being frustrated this way and goaded into doing so. Giap responded by attacking French outposts in the four corners of Indochina, spreading Navarre's force thinner. It was only now that Giap massed his forces at Dien Bien Phu at such numerical superiority just like Napoleon always seems to have because he massed so effectively in overall campaigns. It is true that the humiliating French defeat here resulted in a cease-fire but its important to remember that for eight years before it, a small army led and built by Giap without a real nation resisted a large, highly developed and mechanized army of France.
Tet Offensive (1968): The strategy of the war as a whole was to win politically but conventionally, the Tet Offensive was a disaster for Giap who mistakenly believed that he could at that time conventionally defeat the US/South. Giap had undertaken the offensive with the intention of winning outright in a conventional way, but understood that even if he lost, he won although he underestimated how much of a political effect the offensive would have. When he did realize this a few months into the offensive, his flexibility allowed him to shift from military targets to media and poltiical targets in phase 2 of the offensive which underlined to the American public that the war wasn't over and even when the military said it almost was, it wasn't. Giap fought the war with the mindset that it didn't matter how long it lasted so the four years necessary to husband his strength, for the most part either avoiding battle altogether or harassing ambushes.
Easter Offensive (1972): Again, the offensive was premature but things had been learned from Tet: this offensive was intended to further erode American support of war at a time when Paris Peace talks were underway. This resulted in concessions for both sides although the North obviously didn't intend to keep its word.
Ho Chi Minh Offensive (1975): This was the only successful conventional campaign in the Vietnam War but Giap only needed to win big one to win the war. By this time Giap took little responsibility in planning conventional operations as his only goal was building the North's Army in order to defeat the well-equipped, although now numerically inferior, South Army.
In conclusion, I would point out that if going only by Giap's conventional skills he would be considered a solid general but definitely not worthy of being on the list. However, Giap fought and won a different kind of war. He obviously didn't invent this new form of warfare, only applied it highly effectively based on Mao's Three Phase Insurgency Model much like Guderian did with BH Liddell Hart's ideas (among others). I believe 60-70 to be a fair ranking for Giap.
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DSMyers1
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Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 22:07 |
Originally posted by Paul
A few of the country names of generals are incorrect and others inconsistent. |
Yes, I know. I did it as a method of grouping generals from the same approximate area/culture so I could compare them against each other.
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DSMyers1
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Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 22:22 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
Would you please tell me What makes Alexander greater than Shapur I?
Alexander just defeated a weak Persian king, more than it? He even couldn't kill or capture this king, could he?
Shapur, as a general, defeatd and killed one of the greatest Parthian kings and conquered Parthian Empire and as a king he overthrew Kushan Empire forever and captured Kashgar (western China), he also defeated Romans in all battles and killed or captured three Roman Emperors, in the north he conquered southern Russia and Georgia (Iberia) and in the south he captured the Mazun region of Arabia.
Part of an inscription of Shapur: "We attacked the Roman empire and we destroyed an army of 60,000 men at Barbalissus [in Syria]. Syria and its surrounding areas we burned, devastated and plundered. In this one campaign we captured of the Roman empire 37 cities, including Antioch, the capital of Syria, ..."
Was there really a general greater than Shapur? |
Alexander's opponents weren't great, but he, with a far smaller nation, conquered most of the known world. In addition, he invented/perfected many, many new tactics/methods. His was the first truly combined-arms army (light+heavy infantry+cavalry). (It can be attributed to his father, though... I'm no expert. Somebody else will have to reply more fully. In the meantime, Shapur I climbs the list.
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DSMyers1
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Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 22:26 |
Version 7 Alpha 2 No, Al Jassas, I haven't put in all of the Arabs yet. I did incorporate the Ottoman changes.
Ver 6 |
Rank |
Name |
1 |
1 |
Alexander
the Great |
2 |
2 |
Napoleon
Bonaparte |
3 |
3 |
Temujin
(Genghis Khan) |
4 |
4 |
Hannibal
Barca |
5 |
5 |
John
Churchill (Duke of Marlborough) |
6 |
6 |
Aleksandr
Suvorov |
7 |
7 |
Jan
ika |
8 |
8 |
Belisarios |
9 |
9 |
Timur |
10 |
10 |
Gustav
II Adolf |
11 |
11 |
Scipio
Africanus the Older |
12 |
12 |
Gaius
Julius Caesar |
15 |
13 |
Subotai |
18 |
14 |
Frederick
II of Prussia |
14 |
15 |
Eugene
of Savoy |
17 |
16 |
Sir
Arthur Wellesley (Duke of Wellington) |
19 |
17 |
Khalid
ibn al-Walid |
13 |
18 |
Henri
de La Tour d'Auvergne de Turenne |
16 |
19 |
Heraclius |
23 |
20 |
Cyrus
the Great |
24 |
21 |
Maurice,
comte de Saxe |
21 |
22 |
Raimondo
Montecuccoli |
30 |
23 |
Philip
II of Macedon |
31 |
24 |
Hn
Xn |
29 |
25 |
Selim
I |
28 |
26 |
Heinz
Wilhelm Guderian |
22 |
27 |
Gaius
Marius |
34 |
28 |
George
Kastrioti (Skanderbeg) |
35 |
29 |
Nadir Shah |
25 |
30 |
Robert Clive |
26 |
31 |
Erich
von Manstein |
20 |
32 |
Louis
Nicholas Davout |
36 |
33 |
Stefan
cel Mare (Stephen III) |
40 |
34 |
Gonzalo
Fernndez de Crdoba (El Gran Capitn) |
42 |
35 |
Robert
E. Lee |
46 |
36 |
Helmuth
Karl Bernhard von Moltke |
89 |
37 |
Shapur
I |
43 |
38 |
Chandragupta
Maurya |
32 |
39 |
Maurice
of Nassau |
33 |
40 |
Louis
II de Bourbon, Prince de Cond |
51 |
41 |
Tiglath-Pileser
III |
27 |
42 |
Thutmose
III |
37 |
43 |
Trần
Hưng Đạo |
38 |
44 |
Shivaji
Bhosle |
39 |
45 |
Winfield
Scott |
44 |
46 |
Lucius
Cornelius Sulla |
50 |
47 |
Yue Fei |
52 |
48 |
Babur |
49 |
49 |
Tokugawa
Ieyasu |
56 |
50 |
Thomas
J. (Stonewall) Jackson |
54 |
51 |
Janos
Hunyadi |
55 |
52 |
Duke
of Parma (Alessandro Farnese) |
48 |
53 |
Leo
III the Isaurian |
45 |
54 |
Hamilcar
Barca |
|
55 |
Gazi
Evrenos |
63 |
56 |
Nurhaci |
64 |
57 |
Paul
Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck |
69 |
58 |
Charles
XII |
58 |
59 |
Oda
Nobunaga |
65 |
60 |
Francesco
I Sforza |
59 |
61 |
Stanisław
Koniecpolski |
67 |
62 |
Claude-Louis-Hector
de Villars |
75 |
63 |
Simeon
I the Great |
60 |
64 |
Louis Joseph de Bourbon, duc de
Vendme |
73 |
65 |
Georgy Zhukov |
61 |
66 |
Aurelian
(Lucius Domitius Aurelianus) |
41 |
67 |
Epaminondas |
70 |
68 |
Toyotomi
Hideyoshi |
72 |
69 |
Jan
III Sobieski |
103 |
70 |
Alp
Arslan |
74 |
71 |
Qi
Jiguang |
66 |
72 |
Alexius
I Komnenos |
98 |
73 |
Constantine
I the Great |
|
74 |
Murad
IV |
71 |
75 |
Albrecht
Wallenstein |
68 |
76 |
Aleksandr
Vasilevsky |
78 |
77 |
Robert
Guiscard |
79 |
78 |
Erwin
Rommel |
80 |
79 |
Emperor
Taizong of Tang (Lĭ ShMn) |
|
80 |
Muhammad
of Ghor |
62 |
81 |
Suleiman
I |
93 |
82 |
Shaka
Zulu |
|
83 |
Vo
Nguyen Giap |
|
84 |
Erich
Ludendorff |
81 |
85 |
Baibars |
85 |
86 |
Charlemagne |
95 |
87 |
Franois Henri de
Montmorency-Bouteville (Luxembourg) |
117 |
88 |
Jebe |
96 |
89 |
David |
83 |
90 |
Lautaro
(toqui) |
77 |
91 |
Andr
Massna |
86 |
92 |
Ulysses
Simpson Grant |
87 |
93 |
Kangxi |
132 |
94 |
Carl
Gustav Mannerheim |
53 |
95 |
Edmund
Allenby, 1st Viscount Allenby |
|
96 |
Xu Da |
88 |
97 |
Nguyen Hue |
136 |
98 |
Robert
the Bruce |
118 |
99 |
James
Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose |
150 |
100 |
Mustafa
Kemal |
82 |
101 |
Flavius Stilicho |
130 |
102 |
Naresuan |
143 |
103 |
Oliver
Cromwell |
110 |
104 |
Mahmud
of Ghazni |
104 |
105 |
Wolter
von Plettenberg |
108 |
106 |
Alexander
Nevsky |
129 |
107 |
Pyotr
Bagration |
105 |
108 |
Hernn
Corts |
47 |
109 |
Mehmed II |
97 |
110 |
Nikephoros II Phokas |
76 |
111 |
Basil II |
94 |
112 |
Johan t'Serclaes, Count
of Tilly |
91 |
113 |
Samudragupta |
100 |
114 |
Sonni Ali |
92 |
115 |
Marcus Claudius Marcellus |
|
116 |
Giuseppe
Garibaldi |
101 |
117 |
Gotthard
Heinrici |
102 |
118 |
Andreas
Prokop (Prokop the Great) |
90 |
119 |
Henry V |
106 |
120 |
Bayinnaung |
|
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deadkenny
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Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 22:56 |
A couple comments on a couple German commanders. No Guderian? Is a 'case' actually required to be made? Ludendorff - a good commander in the context of WWI. But what did he really accomplish? He got credit for Tannenberg, although the plan was already in motion before Ludendorff showed up. He managed one really effective offensive on the eastern front (Gorlice-Tarnow) after getting substantial German forces shifted to the east. His conduct of the 1918 offensive on the western front does not count to his credit. His 'panic' in the wake of the successful Allied counterattacks in 1918, practically 'forcing' the government to 'surrender' ('laying down' your arms as a condition for an armistice is not really an armistice) count very much to his discredit. I would like to see more from his proponents before I'm convinced.
Edited by deadkenny - 05-Apr-2008 at 22:56
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"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
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DSMyers1
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Posted: 06-Apr-2008 at 01:53 |
Originally posted by deadkenny
A couple comments on a couple German commanders. No Guderian? Is a 'case' actually required to be made? Ludendorff - a good commander in the context of WWI. But what did he really accomplish? He got credit for Tannenberg, although the plan was already in motion before Ludendorff showed up. He managed one really effective offensive on the eastern front (Gorlice-Tarnow) after getting substantial German forces shifted to the east. His conduct of the 1918 offensive on the western front does not count to his credit. His 'panic' in the wake of the successful Allied counterattacks in 1918, practically 'forcing' the government to 'surrender' ('laying down' your arms as a condition for an armistice is not really an armistice) count very much to his discredit. I would like to see more from his proponents before I'm convinced. |
Look higher-- Guderian is #26! I'm thinking about replacing Ludendorff with Max Hoffmann. What do you think? Is Allenby the only WWI commander worthy?
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deadkenny
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Posted: 06-Apr-2008 at 02:29 |
Originally posted by DSMyers1
Look higher-- Guderian is #26! |
Quite right, sorry.
Originally posted by DSMyers1
I'm thinking about replacing Ludendorff with Max Hoffmann. What do you think? Is Allenby the only WWI commander worthy?
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Hoffmann probably deserves more 'credit' for Tannenberg than he gets. On the other hand he acted more purely as a Staff Officer. Ludendorff had much better opportunity than Hoffmann to demonstrate his command abilities. However, IMHO, Ludendoff's failure in 1918, his 'panic' in reaction to the Allies' counteroffensive even more so than the failure of his own attack, diminishes his reputation. Contrast that with the 'sang-froid' demonstrated by Joffre after the crushing defeat suffered by the French in the Battle of the Frontiers in 1914.
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"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
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antonioM
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Posted: 06-Apr-2008 at 03:44 |
Typically, an army is called by the nationality of the top of the staff
and more importantly the one who's paying the soldiers. Would you not
call a mercenary army by the name of the country that had hired them?
It's who they're working for that counts, not the nationality of the
soldier. As far as I've seen, that's always the way it is done.
Weren't the British the ones paying the soldiers in Wellington's Army,
and it was commanded by an Englishman? So call it a British army.
It's just semantics anyway.
Bad semantics.
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antonioM
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Posted: 06-Apr-2008 at 03:57 |
Maybe you need 3 more columns added to the list, one the reasoning behind the claim and secondly the possible weaknesses in claim. Also a total of battles fought.
EG:
6 Aleksandr Suvarov 1729-1800 Imperial Russia 50+ Undefeated Quality of OppositionI think that is a very good idea. Someone should do the" numbers of battle" and "quality of Opponent defeated" on Marlborough. Then that person should question why he is in the Top Ten considering that he fought in far fewer battles than Suvarov and yet still ranks higher than him. He only participated in four big battles and three of them with the assistance of the brilliant Eugene of Savoy. None of Marlborough's battles had to be fought against incredible odds. I ask you again, why does Marlborough deserve to be in the Top Ten, let alone the Top Five?
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