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    Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 15:59
 

Originally posted by antonioM

see this link:
http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/BATTLE_OF_QUATRE_BRAS.htm#battleofquatrebras1

 

The French attack commenced at 2pm.  Wellington was present, in command, by 3pm.  The battle continued until about 9pm (this was a few days prior to the longest day of the year).  So Orange was in command for the first hour of a 7 hour long battle.  On that basis I do not see your characterization of Orange having been in command and Wellington being 'late' as particularly accurate.


Originally posted by antonioM

They can be called Russian and Austrian, because the majority of these armies were. You can't claim that the majority of Wellington's army was British because the Germans formed 45% of them. They also did most of the fighting along with Bluchers own troops. The British formed only 25-30% of Wellington's army. They are not in the majority so the army can't be called British.

 

So now the British are down to as low as 25%? Even the source which you provided earlier gave them 'credit' for 35%. Regarding the composition of the other armies, do you have specific information on this, or are you just assuming? In particular, what percentage of the Austrian army was actually 'Austrian' (I.e. excluding Hungarians, Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenians, Croats, Serbs, Poles, Italians...)? In any case, the Dutch / German contingents were integrated into Wellington's army, so it is still legit to refer to the collective whole as the 'British army'. It was Britain's national contingent, regardless of what it was composed of. In contrast, Blucher's force was a distinct separate contingent from that of Wellington's. So it would not be appropriate to refer to the combined forces as either British or Prussian.
 

Originally posted by antonioM


Sigh, STOP REFERRING TO THE ARMY AS BRITISH.

 

Only if / when you provide a compelling reason for me to do so.


Originally posted by antonioM


As I have said before countless times, that was not Wellington's objective. I will only repeat this one more time: His objective was to support Blucher. Because of Ney, he failed, so Ney won and he lost. I copied and pasted the relevant sections from the link above


I still don't follow your logic here, beyond simply arguing that the website says the French 'won' so therefore they did. Ney's original force heavily outnumbered the original British force facing them. Ney, plus d'Erlon's I Corps outnumbered the total British force that was present at Quatre Bras by the end of the day. Wellington 'supported' Blucher by engaging a superior force, denying it the use of the lateral road to hit Blucher's forces at Ligny in the flank and preventing those French forces from engaging at Ligny at all. It just seems to me that you've set an impossible objective for the British to have achieved and then claim a French victory on the basis the British having failed to achieve that impossible objective. I have already agreed that in the manouevering up to June 15th, Napoleon had gained an advantageous position between the British and Prussians. Wellington himself admitted that 'Boney' had 'stole a march' on him. On the 16th the onus was on Napoleon to take advantage of that position. A true French victory on June 16th would have consisted of Ney gaining the crossroads and the use of the lateral road early, then sending forces, plus d'Erlons I Corps down the road to take Blucher in the flank. Since Ney did not gain the use of the lateral road during the 16th, failed to have any of his force or the bulk of d'Erlons I Corps engage at Ligny and failed to effectively 'defeat' Wellington I don't see that the French achieved any significant result at Quatre Bras that enhanced their chances in the overall campaign. They no doubt won a victory at Ligny, although not a total victory. However, the outcome at Quatre Bras did not assist in the outcome at Ligny, nor did it impair the ability of the British army to resist in the subsequent phase of the overall campaign.


 

Originally posted by antonioM


Ney had little to reproach himself for in the day's proceedings. Thrown into his command at the eleventh hour, with only three infantry divisions and small cavalry force, he had by skill and courage succeeded in fulfilling the intent of his original orders: he had prevented Wellington from aiding the Prussians for the whole of the 16th. At Ligny the Prussians stood alone and were crushed.

 

You left off this part of the summary, from your own source:

 

American military historian, Colonel John Elting writes: "Had Davout, instead of Ney, commanded Napoleon's left wing, there can be little doubt that Quatre Bras would have been a French victory."  (Elting - "Swords Around a Throne" p 644)

 

The 'would have been' appears to suggest that perhaps, as it was, the result was not such a clear cut French victory.  Since Ney's original force heavily outnumbered the British army at Quatre Bras, there was practically no prospect for the British defeating Ney and then intervening on the battlefield at Ligny.  As it was the British managed to tie up Ney's force all day, prevented Ney from reinforcing the French at Ligny and forced Ney to call upon d'Erlon's I Corps, which then prevented the bulk of that formation from intervening at Ligny either.  As I mentioned before, there was no possibilty of Wellington positioning his entire force at Ligny, because that would then allow the French (Ney in particular) to position themselves on his LoC.  What happened at Ligny was the result of the fight between the Prussians and the French forces there.  With Ney's force, plus d'Erlon's I Corps not engaged at Ligny, there was no way for Wellington to intervene there.  I admit there are plenty of websites that will 'score' Quatre Bras as a 'French victory'.  However, in terms of the analysis of what happened and what impact it had on the subsequent campaign you've not made any argument (to paraphrase you've said 'it was a French victory because this website says so').  Given how heavily outnumbered the British were at the start of Quatre Bras, it was impossible for them to achieve what you've implied they needed to in order to consider the battle a British victory.  In that case, the issue was already decided before the Battle of Quatre Bras was even fought, as a result of the manoeuvering that took place up to the 15th.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
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  Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 16:31
Version 7 Alpha:
Rank Name Died Country/People
1 Alexander the Great 323 BC Macedonia
2 Napoleon Bonaparte 1821 France
3 Temujin (Genghis Khan) 1227 Mongols
4 Hannibal Barca 183 BC Carthage
5 John Churchill (Duke of Marlborough) 1722 England
6 Aleksandr Suvorov 1800 Russia
7 Jan ika 1424 Bohemia
8 Belisarios 565 Byzantines
9 Timur 1405 Turks
10 Gustav II Adolf 1632 Sweden
11 Scipio Africanus the Older 183 BC Rome
12 Gaius Julius Caesar 44 BC Rome
13 Subotai 1248 Mongols
14 Frederick II of Prussia 1786 Prussia
15 Eugene of Savoy 1736 Austria
16 Sir Arthur Wellesley (Duke of Wellington) 1852 England
17 Khalid ibn al-Walid 642 Arabs
18 Henri de La Tour d'Auvergne de Turenne 1675 France
19 Heraclius 641 Byzantines
20 Cyrus the Great 529 BC Persia
21 Maurice, comte de Saxe 1750 France
22 Raimondo Montecuccoli 1680 Austria
23 Philip II of Macedon 336 BC Macedonia
24 Hn Xn 196 BC China
25 Heinz Wilhelm Guderian 1954 Germany
26 Selim I 1520 Ottomans
27 Gaius Marius 86 BC Rome
28 George Kastrioti (Skanderbeg) 1468 Albania
29 Nadir Shah 1747 Persia
30 Robert Clive 1774 England
31 Erich von Manstein 1973 Germany
32 Louis Nicholas Davout 1823 France
33 Stefan cel Mare (Stephen III) 1504 Moldavia
34 Gonzalo Fernndez de Crdoba (El Gran Capitn) 1515 Spain
35 Robert E. Lee 1870 Confederate
36 Helmuth Karl Bernhard von Moltke 1891 Prussia
37 Chandragupta Maurya 298 BC India
38 Maurice of Nassau 1625 Netherlands
39 Louis II de Bourbon, Prince de Cond 1686 France
40 Tiglath-Pileser III 727 BC Assyria
41 Thutmose III ca 1540 BC Egypt
42 Trần Hưng Đạo 1300 Vietnam
43 Shivaji Bhosle 1680 Maratha
44 Winfield Scott 1866 United States
45 Lucius Cornelius Sulla 78 BC Rome
46 Mehmed II 1481 Ottomans
47 Yue Fei 1142 China
48 Babur 1530 Mughal
49 Tokugawa Ieyasu 1616 Japan
50 Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson 1863 Confederate
51 Janos Hunyadi 1456 Hungary
52 Duke of Parma (Alessandro Farnese) 1592 Spain
53 Leo III the Isaurian 741 Byzantines
54 Hamilcar Barca 228 BC Carthage
55 Suleiman I 1566 Ottomans
56 Nurhaci 1626 Manchu
57 Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck 1964 Germany
58 Charles XII 1718 Sweden
59 Oda Nobunaga 1582 Japan
60 Francesco I Sforza 1466 Milan
61 Stanisław Koniecpolski 1646 Poland
62 Claude-Louis-Hector de Villars 1734 France
63 Simeon I the Great 927 Bulgaria
64 Louis Joseph de Bourbon, duc de Vendme 1712 France
65 Aurelian (Lucius Domitius Aurelianus) 275 Rome
66 Vo Nguyen Giap   Vietnam
67 Epaminondas 362 BC Greece
68 Toyotomi Hideyoshi 1598 Japan
69 Jan III Sobieski 1696 Poland
70 Georgy Zhukov 1974 Russia
71 Qi Jiguang 1588 China
72 Alexius I Komnenos 1118 Byzantines
73 Constantine I the Great 337 Rome
74 Albrecht Wallenstein 1634 Austria
75 Aleksandr Vasilevsky 1977 Russia
76 Robert Guiscard 1085 Normandy
77 Erwin Rommel 1944 Germany
78 Emperor Taizong of Tang (Lĭ ShMn) 649 China
79 Shaka Zulu 1828 Zulu
80 Erich Ludendorff 1937 Germany
81 Alp Arslan 1072 Turks
82 Baibars 1277 Mamluke
83 Charlemagne 814 France
84 Franois Henri de Montmorency-Bouteville (Luxembourg) 1695 France
85 Jebe 1225 Mongols
86 David 965 BC Israel
87 Lautaro (toqui) 1557 Mapuche
88 Andr Massna 1817 France
89 Ulysses Simpson Grant 1885 United States
90 Kangxi 1722 China
91 Carl Gustav Mannerheim 1951 Finland
92 Flavius Stilicho 408 Rome
93 Edmund Allenby, 1st Viscount Allenby 1936 England
94 Xu Da 1385 China
95 Nguyen Hue 1792 Vietnam
96 Robert the Bruce 1329 Scotland
97 James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose 1650 England
98 Mustafa Kemal 1938 Turkey
99 Oliver Cromwell 1658 England
100 Naresuan 1605 Ayutthaya



Edited by DSMyers1 - 05-Apr-2008 at 16:45
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  Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 16:43
Approximate to do list from version 6 to version 7:

Europa Universalis Forums:
Jan Smuts
Napoleon Down No
Turenne Down OK
Alexander Down No
Zhukov Up OK
Grant Up No
Sherman Up No
Sun Tzu off OK
Subotai Up OK
Edward IV On Still on the list to do
Arnold On No
Patton Off OK
Rommel Up (and Down) Whatever
Constantine and Basil II Up 1 up, 1 down
Sforza Up OK
Frederick above Wellington and Eugene OK
Karl XII Up OK
Shaka Up OK
Mannerheim Up OK
Hindenburg On No
Aetius On No
Ludendorf On OK
Max Hoffmann On No
Cao Cao On OK, sort of
Xu Da On OK
Wallace On No
Bruce On OK
Pachacuti On OK, sort of
Quizquiz On OK, sort of


AllEmpires Forums:
Suvorov above Napoleon and Hannibal No
Top 10 too Euro-centric Sorry
Davout Down OK
Manstein Down OK
Mahmud of Ghazni Down Off
Rundstedt Down OK
Marlborough down No
Wellington Up No
Suvorov above Marlborough No
suvorov Down No
Baibars Up No
Timur above Genghis (Genghis only administrator) No
Shivaji On (good) OK
Nikphores > Basil II OK, but both off
Alp Arslan On OK
Allenby Off No, but down
Ataturk On over Manstein On
Need more Assyrians No
Sher Shah Suri Off OK
Nathanael Greene Off OK
Sonni Ali Off OK
Edward III Off OK
Shaka Zulu Up OK
Jebe On OK
Alp Arslan Up OK
Archduke Charles Up? No
Pyrrhus Down OK
Henry V Maybe off OK
Tilly Up No
Luxembourg Up OK
David Off No
Sun Tzu Off OK
Bayan On? No
Chormaqan On? No
Louis William, Margrave of Baden, TurkenLouis On Still on the list to do
Archduke Charles Off OK
Manstein Up No
Ataturk ON OK
Black Prince ON Still on the list to do
Cromwell Above Edward, Henry OK
Maha Thihathura On Still on the list to do
Chakri Naruseun On Still on the list to do
William Slim On No
Ridgeway On No
Marshall On Still on the list to do
Ranjit Singh On Still on the list to do
Moctezuma On Still on the list to do
Bolivar ON Still on the list to do
Baji Rao I On Still on the list to do
Jose de San Martin On Still on the list to do
Philip II Up OK
Wellington > Frederick > Marlborough No
Charles V On Still on the list to do
Vo Nguyen Giap On !!! OK!!!
Thutmose III Down OK
Manstein Down OK
Allenby down OK
Slim maybe 90s No
Guru Gobind Singh On Still on the list to do
de Saxe above Eugene of Savoy (to 16th place) No, but Up
Bagration into top 20 (!) No, but Up



Edited by DSMyers1 - 05-Apr-2008 at 16:45
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  Quote Samara Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 17:15
Originally posted by DSMyers1

Approximate to do list from version 6 to version 7:

Europa Universalis Forums:
Jan Smuts
Napoleon Down No
Turenne Down OK
Alexander Down No
Zhukov Up OK
Grant Up No
Sherman Up No
Sun Tzu off OK
Subotai Up OK
Edward IV On Still on the list to do
Arnold On No
Patton Off OK
Rommel Up (and Down) Whatever
Constantine and Basil II Up 1 up, 1 down
Sforza Up OK
Frederick above Wellington and Eugene OK
Karl XII Up OK
Shaka Up OK
Mannerheim Up OK
Hindenburg On No
Aetius On No
Ludendorf On OK
Max Hoffmann On No
Cao Cao On OK, sort of
Xu Da On OK
Wallace On No
Bruce On OK
Pachacuti On OK, sort of
Quizquiz On OK, sort of



LOL






























































































































LOLSo american vision.
LOL
"All is loose, just the honour"

Francis in the battle of Pavia
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  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 17:39
I believe I will continue my practice of not commenting directly on relative rankings.  However I will gladly participate in the discussion of the merits (or lack thereof) of the various commanders being discussed.  With the intro of Giap to the list, I would like to see more from his proponents, beyond simply that he 'defeated' the Americans.  To what extent does he deserve 'credit' for the communist guerrila campaign in the south (Viet Cong)?  I do not give him credit for 'brilliant' leadership in his 'conventional' offensives.  For example:
 
Dien Bien Phu (1954) - the French took up a 'suicidal' position.  Giap eventually crushed them, suffering massive losses in the process.  Given the poor position the French were in, and the numerical advantage of the Vietnamese forces, I do not believe that the final outcome does Giap much credit.  The final outcome was pretty much decided when the Vietnamese 'manhandled' their heavy guns over the mountains.  After that it was pretty much just of question of what losses the French would be able to inflict on the Vietnamese, and the losses were heavy.
 
Tet Offensive (1968) -  Military disaster for the Vietnamese communists.  Unintended political 'win' in the US (unless someone wants to argue that the political consequences in the US were an objective from the start).
 
Easter Offensive (1972) - Miltary disaster for the Vietnamese communists.  Given the more limited American engagement, and 'Vietnamesization' which left the south to do more of the fighting, the results were more favourable for the communists than was the case with Tet.  Still, clearly not a military victory - resources for the North were not unlimited and sustaining such massive losses was not viable in the long run.

Ho Chi Minh Offensive (1975) -  The only clearly successful conventional military campaign which does credit to Giap's reputation, IMHO.  Somewhat 'discounted' by the fact that the relatively weak south had been practically left to their own devices by the US at this stage. 
 


Edited by deadkenny - 05-Apr-2008 at 17:45
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 17:57

Giap doesn't deserve to be on the list. Leftist media made him the hero he isn't. If the US was really committed to distroying the north Vietnamese they would have done so. The French thought they were the only people who won WWII and sent a small force to.. Vietnam a mistake they didn't make in Algeria (where they had 400 thousand troops, 10 times more than the rebels).

I gave you suggestion DS what happened to them.
 
Also, Muhammad II should not be on the list either because he lost so many battles and failed to crush the rebellion of Kastrioti. He always had good field commanders and strategists and an overwhelming superiority in numbers. Murad IV should replace him.
 
Alp Arslan should be higher and Muhammad of Ghor should be included as well.
 
Zhukov should be higher, he faced a new enemy with innovative strategies and innovation should be key in determining a good general.
 
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  Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 18:54
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Giap doesn't deserve to be on the list. Leftist media made him the hero he isn't. If the US was really committed to distroying the north Vietnamese they would have done so. The French thought they were the only people who won WWII and sent a small force to.. Vietnam a mistake they didn't make in Algeria (where they had 400 thousand troops, 10 times more than the rebels).

I gave you suggestion DS what happened to them.
 
Also, Muhammad II should not be on the list either because he lost so many battles and failed to crush the rebellion of Kastrioti. He always had good field commanders and strategists and an overwhelming superiority in numbers. Murad IV should replace him.
 
Alp Arslan should be higher and Muhammad of Ghor should be included as well.
 
Zhukov should be higher, he faced a new enemy with innovative strategies and innovation should be key in determining a good general.
 
Al-Jassas

1. I think Giap did a very good job in the organization and strategy of the Vietnamese.  Obviously, his conventional battles did not turn out so well, but he did win two wars against far superior foes--and credit must be given for that.  I'll move him down, however.

2. The suggestions I've worked with were from before yours; in the final version 7 list they will be on.

3. Mehmed II off.  Please, please, PLEASE give a comprehensive ranking of the Ottomans.  I've needed one for a while.  What I have now is:
26 Selim I 1520 Ottomans
46 Mehmed II 1481 Ottomans
55 Suleiman I 1566 Ottomans
I should probably have more.  Please rank them!

4. Alp Arslan and Muhammad of Ghor: (Ghor=Ghazni?) Mahmud of Ghazni is at 101 right now.  Alp Arslan is on the way up.

5.  Zhukov higher?  Are you sure?  He's already #3 in WWII.


Edited by DSMyers1 - 05-Apr-2008 at 19:11
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  Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 19:13
Originally posted by Samara


LOLSo american vision.
LOL


The Paradox Forums are about as multinational as AllEmpires--but far more Euro-centric.  There are more Europeans posting over there than Americans, I think.
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 20:34
Hello DS
 
Muhammad of Ghor is different than Mahmud of Ghazni, there is a 100 years interval between them:
He hailed from Ghor or Ghur, a province in Afghanistan. He distroyed the remnants of the Ghaznavids, took control of current day Pakistan and defeated the Khwarizmids. He reached as far as Bihar, much farther than what Mahmud reached, and defeated the Indian Rajputs. If he lived long enough he might have stopped the mongols because he left a powerful army that defeated them despite much less commanders were in charge.
 
If you want to rank the Ottomans, I suggest the next few general based on my opinion:
 
1- Selim I, he was the greatest Ottoman general without doubt.
2- Ghazi Evrenos, he was responsible for keeping Ottoman holdings in Europe and conquered many lands especially Greece and the Balkans and helped Muhammad I in regainin the throne.
3- Murad IV: He rebuilt the Ottoman army, defeated the Persians and rebels and was going to reform the army if he didn't die at an early age.
4- Sulaiman the magnificent.
There are others like zaganos pasha but I don't know much about them to decide.
 
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 20:51

Would you please tell me What makes Alexander greater than Shapur I?

Alexander just defeated a weak Persian king, more than it? He even couldn't kill or capture this king, could he?

Shapur, as a general, defeatd and killed one of the greatest Parthian kings and conquered Parthian Empire and as a king he overthrew Kushan Empire forever and captured Kashgar (western China), he also defeated Romans in all battles and killed or captured three Roman Emperors, in the north he conquered southern Russia and Georgia (Iberia) and in the south he captured the Mazun region of Arabia.

Part of an inscription of Shapur: "We attacked the Roman empire and we destroyed an army of 60,000 men at Barbalissus [in Syria]. Syria and its surrounding areas we burned, devastated and plundered. In this one campaign we captured of the Roman empire 37 cities, including Antioch, the capital of Syria, ..."

Was there really a general greater than Shapur?

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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 21:52
A few of the country names of generals are incorrect and others inconsistent.
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  Quote Jonathan4290 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 21:58
Originally posted by deadkenny

I believe I will continue my practice of not commenting directly on relative rankings.  However I will gladly participate in the discussion of the merits (or lack thereof) of the various commanders being discussed.  With the intro of Giap to the list, I would like to see more from his proponents, beyond simply that he 'defeated' the Americans.  To what extent does he deserve 'credit' for the communist guerrila campaign in the south (Viet Cong)?  
 
A fair request. I will organize this post by conventional battle only because it is easiest, although not the most accurate presentation of Giap's abilities.
 
Dien Bien Phu (1954): The French did take up a suicidal position but only did so becasue Giap forced them to do so. The French General Navarre constantly tried to destroy Giap's forces but Giap withdrew whenever Navarre massed forces, harassed whenever possible, attacked when Navarre spread his forces and prusued when Navarre withdrew as Sun Tzu's work states. Navarre only struck at Dien Bien Phu after being frustrated this way and goaded into doing so. Giap responded by attacking French outposts in the four corners of Indochina, spreading Navarre's force thinner. It was only now that Giap massed his forces at Dien Bien Phu at such numerical superiority just like Napoleon always seems to have because he massed so effectively in overall campaigns. It is true that the humiliating French defeat here resulted in a cease-fire but its important to remember that for eight years before it, a small army led and built by Giap without a real nation resisted a large, highly developed and mechanized army of France.
 
Tet Offensive (1968): The strategy of the war as a whole was to win politically but conventionally, the Tet Offensive was a disaster for Giap who mistakenly believed that he could at that time conventionally defeat the US/South. Giap had undertaken the offensive with the intention of winning outright in a conventional way, but understood that even if he lost, he won although he underestimated how much of a political effect the offensive would have. When he did realize this a few months into the offensive, his flexibility allowed him to shift from military targets to media and poltiical targets in phase 2 of the offensive which underlined to the American public that the war wasn't over and even when the military said it almost was, it wasn't. Giap fought the war with the mindset that it didn't matter how long it lasted so the four years necessary to husband his strength, for the most part either avoiding battle altogether or harassing ambushes.
 
Easter Offensive (1972): Again, the offensive was premature but things had been learned from Tet: this offensive was intended to further erode American support of war at a time when Paris Peace talks were underway. This resulted in concessions for both sides although the North obviously didn't intend to keep its word.
 
Ho Chi Minh Offensive (1975): This was the only successful conventional campaign in the Vietnam War but Giap only needed to win big one to win the war. By this time Giap took little responsibility in planning conventional operations as his only goal was building the North's Army in order to defeat the well-equipped, although now numerically inferior, South Army.
 
In conclusion, I would point out that if going only by Giap's conventional skills he would be considered a solid general but definitely not worthy of being on the list. However, Giap fought and won a different kind of war. He obviously didn't invent this new form of warfare, only applied it highly effectively  based on Mao's Three Phase Insurgency Model much like Guderian did with BH Liddell Hart's ideas (among others). I believe 60-70 to be a fair ranking for Giap.
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  Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 22:07
Originally posted by Paul

A few of the country names of generals are incorrect and others inconsistent.


Yes, I know.  I did it as a method of grouping generals from the same approximate area/culture so I could compare them against each other.
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  Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 22:22
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Would you please tell me What makes Alexander greater than Shapur I?

Alexander just defeated a weak Persian king, more than it? He even couldn't kill or capture this king, could he?

Shapur, as a general, defeatd and killed one of the greatest Parthian kings and conquered Parthian Empire and as a king he overthrew Kushan Empire forever and captured Kashgar (western China), he also defeated Romans in all battles and killed or captured three Roman Emperors, in the north he conquered southern Russia and Georgia (Iberia) and in the south he captured the Mazun region of Arabia.

Part of an inscription of Shapur: "We attacked the Roman empire and we destroyed an army of 60,000 men at Barbalissus [in Syria]. Syria and its surrounding areas we burned, devastated and plundered. In this one campaign we captured of the Roman empire 37 cities, including Antioch, the capital of Syria, ..."

Was there really a general greater than Shapur?



Alexander's opponents weren't great, but he, with a far smaller nation, conquered most of the known world.  In addition, he invented/perfected many, many new tactics/methods.  His was the first truly combined-arms army (light+heavy infantry+cavalry).  (It can be attributed to his father, though...  I'm no expert.  Somebody else will have to reply more fully.  In the meantime, Shapur I climbs the list.
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  Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 22:26
Version 7 Alpha 2
No, Al Jassas, I haven't put in all of the Arabs yet.  I did incorporate the Ottoman changes.
Ver 6 Rank Name
1 1 Alexander the Great
2 2 Napoleon Bonaparte
3 3 Temujin (Genghis Khan)
4 4 Hannibal Barca
5 5 John Churchill (Duke of Marlborough)
6 6 Aleksandr Suvorov
7 7 Jan ika
8 8 Belisarios
9 9 Timur
10 10 Gustav II Adolf
11 11 Scipio Africanus the Older
12 12 Gaius Julius Caesar
15 13 Subotai
18 14 Frederick II of Prussia
14 15 Eugene of Savoy
17 16 Sir Arthur Wellesley (Duke of Wellington)
19 17 Khalid ibn al-Walid
13 18 Henri de La Tour d'Auvergne de Turenne
16 19 Heraclius
23 20 Cyrus the Great
24 21 Maurice, comte de Saxe
21 22 Raimondo Montecuccoli
30 23 Philip II of Macedon
31 24 Hn Xn
29 25 Selim I
28 26 Heinz Wilhelm Guderian
22 27 Gaius Marius
34 28 George Kastrioti (Skanderbeg)
35 29 Nadir Shah
25 30 Robert Clive
26 31 Erich von Manstein
20 32 Louis Nicholas Davout
36 33 Stefan cel Mare (Stephen III)
40 34 Gonzalo Fernndez de Crdoba (El Gran Capitn)
42 35 Robert E. Lee
46 36 Helmuth Karl Bernhard von Moltke
89 37 Shapur I
43 38 Chandragupta Maurya
32 39 Maurice of Nassau
33 40 Louis II de Bourbon, Prince de Cond
51 41 Tiglath-Pileser III
27 42 Thutmose III
37 43 Trần Hưng Đạo
38 44 Shivaji Bhosle
39 45 Winfield Scott
44 46 Lucius Cornelius Sulla
50 47 Yue Fei
52 48 Babur
49 49 Tokugawa Ieyasu
56 50 Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson
54 51 Janos Hunyadi
55 52 Duke of Parma (Alessandro Farnese)
48 53 Leo III the Isaurian
45 54 Hamilcar Barca
  55 Gazi Evrenos
63 56 Nurhaci
64 57 Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck
69 58 Charles XII
58 59 Oda Nobunaga
65 60 Francesco I Sforza
59 61 Stanisław Koniecpolski
67 62 Claude-Louis-Hector de Villars
75 63 Simeon I the Great
60 64 Louis Joseph de Bourbon, duc de Vendme
73 65 Georgy Zhukov
61 66 Aurelian (Lucius Domitius Aurelianus)
41 67 Epaminondas
70 68 Toyotomi Hideyoshi
72 69 Jan III Sobieski
103 70 Alp Arslan
74 71 Qi Jiguang
66 72 Alexius I Komnenos
98 73 Constantine I the Great
  74 Murad IV
71 75 Albrecht Wallenstein
68 76 Aleksandr Vasilevsky
78 77 Robert Guiscard
79 78 Erwin Rommel
80 79 Emperor Taizong of Tang (Lĭ ShMn)
  80 Muhammad of Ghor
62 81 Suleiman I
93 82 Shaka Zulu
  83 Vo Nguyen Giap
  84 Erich Ludendorff
81 85 Baibars
85 86 Charlemagne
95 87 Franois Henri de Montmorency-Bouteville (Luxembourg)
117 88 Jebe
96 89 David
83 90 Lautaro (toqui)
77 91 Andr Massna
86 92 Ulysses Simpson Grant
87 93 Kangxi
132 94 Carl Gustav Mannerheim
53 95 Edmund Allenby, 1st Viscount Allenby
  96 Xu Da
88 97 Nguyen Hue
136 98 Robert the Bruce
118 99 James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
150 100 Mustafa Kemal
82 101 Flavius Stilicho
130 102 Naresuan
143 103 Oliver Cromwell
110 104 Mahmud of Ghazni
104 105 Wolter von Plettenberg
108 106 Alexander Nevsky
129 107 Pyotr Bagration
105 108 Hernn Corts
47 109 Mehmed II
97 110 Nikephoros II Phokas
76 111 Basil II
94 112 Johan t'Serclaes, Count of Tilly
91 113 Samudragupta
100 114 Sonni Ali
92 115 Marcus Claudius Marcellus
  116 Giuseppe Garibaldi
101 117 Gotthard Heinrici
102 118 Andreas Prokop (Prokop the Great)
90 119 Henry V
106 120 Bayinnaung

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  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 22:56
A couple comments on a couple German commanders.  No Guderian?  Is a 'case' actually required to be made?  Ludendorff - a good commander in the context of WWI.  But what did he really accomplish?  He got credit for Tannenberg, although the plan was already in motion before Ludendorff showed up.  He managed one really effective offensive on the eastern front (Gorlice-Tarnow) after getting substantial German forces shifted to the east.  His conduct of the 1918 offensive on the western front does not count to his credit.  His 'panic' in the wake of the successful Allied counterattacks in 1918, practically 'forcing' the government to 'surrender' ('laying down' your arms as a condition for an armistice is not really an armistice) count very much to his discredit.  I would like to see more from his proponents before I'm convinced.

Edited by deadkenny - 05-Apr-2008 at 22:56
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
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  Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2008 at 01:53
Originally posted by deadkenny

A couple comments on a couple German commanders.  No Guderian?  Is a 'case' actually required to be made?  Ludendorff - a good commander in the context of WWI.  But what did he really accomplish?  He got credit for Tannenberg, although the plan was already in motion before Ludendorff showed up.  He managed one really effective offensive on the eastern front (Gorlice-Tarnow) after getting substantial German forces shifted to the east.  His conduct of the 1918 offensive on the western front does not count to his credit.  His 'panic' in the wake of the successful Allied counterattacks in 1918, practically 'forcing' the government to 'surrender' ('laying down' your arms as a condition for an armistice is not really an armistice) count very much to his discredit.  I would like to see more from his proponents before I'm convinced.


Look higher-- Guderian is #26!

I'm thinking about replacing Ludendorff with Max Hoffmann.  What do you think?  Is Allenby the only WWI commander worthy?
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  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2008 at 02:29
Originally posted by DSMyers1


Look higher-- Guderian is #26!
 
Quite right, sorry.
 
Originally posted by DSMyers1


I'm thinking about replacing Ludendorff with Max Hoffmann.  What do you think?  Is Allenby the only WWI commander worthy?
 
Hoffmann probably deserves more 'credit' for Tannenberg than he gets.  On the other hand he acted more purely as a Staff Officer.  Ludendorff had much better opportunity than Hoffmann to demonstrate his command abilities.  However, IMHO, Ludendoff's failure in 1918, his 'panic' in reaction to the Allies' counteroffensive even more so than the failure of his own attack, diminishes his reputation.  Contrast that with the 'sang-froid' demonstrated by Joffre after the crushing defeat suffered by the French in the Battle of the Frontiers in 1914.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
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  Quote antonioM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2008 at 03:44
Typically, an army is called by the nationality of the top of the staff and more importantly the one who's paying the soldiers.  Would you not call a mercenary army by the name of the country that had hired them?  It's who they're working for that counts, not the nationality of the soldier.  As far as I've seen, that's always the way it is done.  Weren't the British the ones paying the soldiers in Wellington's Army, and it was commanded by an Englishman?  So call it a British army.  It's just semantics anyway.

Bad semantics.
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  Quote antonioM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2008 at 03:57
Maybe you need 3 more columns added to the list, one the reasoning behind the claim and secondly the possible weaknesses in claim. Also a total of battles fought.
 
 
EG:
 
6 Aleksandr Suvarov    1729-1800    Imperial   Russia    50+   Undefeated   Quality of Opposition


I think that is a very good idea. Someone should do the" numbers of battle" and "quality of Opponent defeated" on Marlborough. Then that person should question why he is in the Top Ten considering that he fought in far fewer battles than Suvarov and yet still ranks higher than him.

He only participated in four big battles and three of them with the assistance of the brilliant Eugene of Savoy. None of Marlborough's battles had to be fought against incredible odds.

I ask you again, why does Marlborough deserve to be in the Top Ten, let alone the Top Five?
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