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Indian Influences in World History

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YusakuJon3 View Drop Down
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  Quote YusakuJon3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Indian Influences in World History
    Posted: 10-Jul-2006 at 19:50
I've been reading John Keay's India: A History and have gone through some passages where it mentions the origins of Buddhism and its eventual spread across the Far East, and of the influence that Indian culture had on regions of Southeast Asia and Indonesia.  I'm curious as to when and how this influence began to wane, as it seems that India was well positioned to maintain its contacts with the trade routes across the Indian Ocean.  It seems that the decline in Indian dominance of the trade routes corresponds to the Muslim invasions and the arrival of the European powers.  At the same time, India has a history of regional (though not cultural) factionalism that contributed somewhat to its inability to project its influence.

Keay mentions Indic kingdoms in SE Asia (including the Khmer of Angkor-Wat fame) and Indonesia (of which one seems to have put up a minor maritime empire).  Yet these are now overshadowed by the modern Islamic and Indo-Chinese cultures.  Have the Indian influences managed to sustain themselves, or is it all gone now?
"There you go again!"

-- President Ronald W. Reagan (directed towards reporters at a White House press conference, mid-1980s)
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 09:18
Who says they're gone at all? I really don't think that they are.

"The loss of India would reduce Britian to the fate of a minor power" - Winston Churchill

EDIT: btw, there is no such thing as a Islamic culture


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 11-Jul-2006 at 09:19
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  Quote Digvijay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 16:20
Originally posted by YusakuJon3

I've been reading John Keay's India: A History and have gone through some passages where it mentions the origins of Buddhism and its eventual spread across the Far East, and of the influence that Indian culture had on regions of Southeast Asia and Indonesia.  I'm curious as to when and how this influence began to wane, as it seems that India was well positioned to maintain its contacts with the trade routes across the Indian Ocean.  It seems that the decline in Indian dominance of the trade routes corresponds to the Muslim invasions and the arrival of the European powers.  At the same time, India has a history of regional (though not cultural) factionalism that contributed somewhat to its inability to project its influence.

Keay mentions Indic kingdoms in SE Asia (including the Khmer of Angkor-Wat fame) and Indonesia (of which one seems to have put up a minor maritime empire).  Yet these are now overshadowed by the modern Islamic and Indo-Chinese cultures.  Have the Indian influences managed to sustain themselves, or is it all gone now?

YusakuJon,
 Keay is right on the money in saying that the influence of India did reduce because of invasions by muslims. Reasons are manifold:
a) Muslims burnt any books they could find in India after the invasions.  India had two major universities at Nalanda (Modern Bihar) and Taxila (Modern Pakistan). They both had extensive libraries which were burnt by Muslim invaders.
b) Architecture and building science of India was almost destroyed by the invaders.
c) Research in Mathematics, Philosophy, astronomy etc came to a grinding halt. Prior to Islamic invasions India produced great mathematicians, astronomers etc such as Brahmgupta, Bhaskara, Panini ... India did give the world the decimal number system, algebra (both of which are wrongly attributed to Arabs). This research was all prior to arrival of Islam in India.

Lastly Indian population was basically fighting to not get converted to the religion of Islam as Muslims tried to do in every land they went in. So the thousand years, from 700 A.D to about 1800 A.D, in India were the most bloody in the annals of world history.

In his Annals and Antiquities of Rajasthan James Tod captures this fact quite well:
"What nation on earth could have maintained the semblance of civilization, the spirit or the customs of their forefathers, during so many centuries of overwhelming depression, but one of such singular character as the Rajpoot? . . . Rajasthan exhibits the sole example in the history of mankind, of a people withstanding every outrage barbarity could inflict, or human nature sustain, from a foe (Muslims) whose religion commands annihilation; and bent to the earth, yet rising buoyant from the pressure, and making calamity a whetstone to courage. . . . Not an iota of their religion or customs have they lost. . . ".
 Also if you get a chance do read the following link which explains how Indians fought the islamic invaders in India for a thousand years and there bravery allowed India to remain a Hindu state unlike Iran/Iraq etc which became majority muslim state within a few decades.

http://hindurajput.blogspot.com/#Rajputs_and_Invasions_of_India

-Digs
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  Quote YusakuJon3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2006 at 07:07
I'm just now getting to the point in Keay's book where Islam is about to make its great push, just after the decline of the famous dynasty of the Cholas.  It seems that India around this time is a jumble of rival kingdoms who, like the Europeans after the fall of Rome, were more often at war with one another than not, in spite of having common cultural and religious ties.  Such was the case in the Punjab when the Ghaznis came barreling through the passes of the Hindu Kush.

At the point in Keay's book that I'm reading now, the Rajputs of whom you're speaking have just made their appearance and are basically the vanguard against the subsequent Islamic Incursion which followed in the wake of the rise of Seljuk Iran.  Given the slaughter and pillage which resulted, I'd have to belatedly commend the Rajputs on their spirit of resistance.  However, pillage and rapine seems not to have been unique to Muslim holy warriors, as the reported actions of the Chola invaders in Sri Lanka had demonstrated.

It was those same Chola dynasts who show hints of a rare instance where Indian kingdoms showed an inclination towards projecting their power in a manner similar to that which the European powers were more so often doing.


Edited by YusakuJon3 - 14-Jul-2006 at 07:09
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  Quote Digvijay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 07:45
Can you expand a bit on the Chola and Sri Lanka statment?

Thanks,
-Digs
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  Quote YusakuJon3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 21:16
Originally posted by Digvijay

Can you expand a bit on the Chola and Sri Lanka statment?
According to Keay's book, inscriptions and chronicles surviving from the era (10th and 11th Centuries CE) point to no less than two invasions of Sri Lanka by the Cholas.  The first under King Rajaraja I and the second under his successor Rajendra I.  Sri Lanka was apparently rather brutally pillaged, as they compared the Cholas to some sort of vampiric creature.  In many ways, you could compare it to the way in which the Crusaders from Western Europe would later pillage and occupy Constantinople en route to the Holy Land; the actions of the Cholas had that kind of feel to them.
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  Quote Digvijay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2006 at 07:18
Originally posted by YusakuJon3

Originally posted by Digvijay

Can you expand a bit on the Chola and Sri Lanka statment?
According to Keay's book, inscriptions and chronicles surviving from the era (10th and 11th Centuries CE) point to no less than two invasions of Sri Lanka by the Cholas.  The first under King Rajaraja I and the second under his successor Rajendra I.  Sri Lanka was apparently rather brutally pillaged, as they compared the Cholas to some sort of vampiric creature.  In many ways, you could compare it to the way in which the Crusaders from Western Europe would later pillage and occupy Constantinople en route to the Holy Land; the actions of the Cholas had that kind of feel to them.

Yusaku,
  Did you finish the book? I would recommend you read James Tod's "Annals and antiquities of Rajasthan" also.
-Digs
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  Quote Digvijay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2006 at 15:15
Originally posted by YusakuJon3

I've been reading John Keay's India: A History and have gone through some passages where it mentions the origins of Buddhism and its eventual spread across the Far East, and of the influence that Indian culture had on regions of Southeast Asia and Indonesia.  I'm curious as to when and how this influence began to wane, as it seems that India was well positioned to maintain its contacts with the trade routes across the Indian Ocean.  It seems that the decline in Indian dominance of the trade routes corresponds to the Muslim invasions and the arrival of the European powers.  At the same time, India has a history of regional (though not cultural) factionalism that contributed somewhat to its inability to project its influence.

Keay mentions Indic kingdoms in SE Asia (including the Khmer of Angkor-Wat fame) and Indonesia (of which one seems to have put up a minor maritime empire).  Yet these are now overshadowed by the modern Islamic and Indo-Chinese cultures.  Have the Indian influences managed to sustain themselves, or is it all gone now?

YusakuJon,
Interestingly, Basham's "Cultural History of India" reaches the same conclusion about Islam's influence on India: (Following excerpt from Page 193 of this book)
"The Turkish conquests of more then half India between 900 and 1300 A.D were perhaps the most destructive in human history. As Muslims, the conquerors aimed not only to destroy all other religions but also to abolish the secular culture. Their burning of libraries explains the large gaps in our knowledge of earlier literature......"

Arthur Llewellyn Basham (AL Basham) was a historian with the Australian National University in Canberra.  His most popular book is The Wonder That was India.
He joined the ANU in 1965 as Professor of Oriental (later Asian) Civilizations and retired in 1979. He died in Calcutta in India in 1986. An annual public lecture series is given at the ANU in his memory.


Edited by Digvijay - 17-Aug-2006 at 05:20
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  Quote Digvijay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2006 at 05:22
Originally posted by Digvijay

[QUOTE=YusakuJon3]I've been reading John Keay's India: A History and have gone through some passages where it mentions the origins of Buddhism and its eventual spread across the Far East, and of the influence that Indian culture had on regions of Southeast Asia and Indonesia.  I'm curious as to when and how this influence began to wane, as it seems that India was well positioned to maintain its contacts with the trade routes across the Indian Ocean.  It seems that the decline in Indian dominance of the trade routes corresponds to the Muslim invasions and the arrival of the European powers.  At the same time, India has a history of regional (though not cultural) factionalism that contributed somewhat to its inability to project its influence.

Keay mentions Indic kingdoms in SE Asia (including the Khmer of Angkor-Wat fame) and Indonesia (of which one seems to have put up a minor maritime empire).  Yet these are now overshadowed by the modern Islamic and Indo-Chinese cultures.  Have the Indian influences managed to sustain themselves, or is it all gone now?

Yusaku ,
Are you around?
-Digs
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  Quote mondweep Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2006 at 16:52
Guys,
 
This is my first post to the group. I have read through some of the old  threads. There is a lot of healthy discussion and debate and most commendable is that there is no personal attack as is there in many other groups. I am impressed with it and would definitely participate in the discussions here.
 
Cheers!
-Mondweep
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