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The Friendly dictators

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Friendly dictators
    Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 09:19
Leftist dictatorships call AI fascist, rightwing dictatorships call AI communist, which is the best evidence that AI is objective.
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 14:12
Originally posted by R_AK47

Amnesty International is a very biased originization with information that is not to be trusted.  Most of the propaganda they dream up are complete lies.
 
Yes, and aliens are controlling the government. Very simple is it, just living in denial.

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  Quote R_AK47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 09:16
Amnesty International is a very biased originization with information that is not to be trusted.  Most of the propaganda they dream up are complete lies.
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 03:55
http://asvdh.net/english/new-petition/
 
 
Just google "political prisoners morocco", and you get plenty of hits.
 
No-one deserves to be treated sub-human. No-one, but you obyiously do not understand the term 'political prisoner'. A political prisoner is locked up because he differs from opinion with the government or because he opposes the government. These are people being punished for having an opinion of their own in a country that has no freedom of speech. Imagine Bush locking up all who disagree with him without proper trial. Would you accept that as normal?


Edited by Aelfgifu - 10-Aug-2006 at 04:03

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  Quote R_AK47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 00:44
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Originally posted by Tobodai

 
Personal privacy and democracy are completely incompatable because the will of the people is always trite and conformist.  The current King of Morrocco is a far more benevolent ruler than most elected ones.   
 
 
 
I wonder if all those political prisoners rotting away in sub-human conditions in prisons in Morocco agree. I very seriously doubt it.
 
 
 
What political prisoners?  Do you have proof of any political prisoners being held in Morocco?  If there are any, there are probably many good reasons why they are locked up in "sub-human" conditions.  They are criminals and enemies of the state.  What else are they supposed to do with them?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2006 at 10:20
I was referring to the Thirty-Year's War in Europe, which finally put an end to the Netherland theater Eighty-Year's War in 1648, with the treaty of Westphalia and establishment of the independent Dutch Republic, as opposed to netherland prinvinces in the Spanish Empire,  in the same year.
 
The Dutch were always ahead their time, often through learning from other people's mistakes.  It just took a lot of bloodshed to convince those in political power, like the Spanish absolutist monarchs . . . as unfortunately usually the case in human history.     
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2006 at 09:30

The second time by the Dutch, only after decades of mutual slaughter between Protestants and Catholics. 

A war between a Catholic and a Protestant country does not automatically make a religious war. The Spanish king wanted the Dutch catholic, the Dutch wanted freedom of choice.

 
But I agree with a lot in your post. Very intelligent remarks. Thanks.


Edited by Aelfgifu - 07-Aug-2006 at 09:32

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2006 at 09:20

Like Pakistan under Musharaf vs. next-door Iran under the mullah's.

Pakistan under Musharaf is currently a secular military dictatorship . . . a relatively benign one at it.  Next-door Iran is an Islamic Republic where Democracy as in "majority rule" is practiced, much to the detriment of the unprotected minority.
 
In an idealized world, non-denominational representative republic (like the US) or even with a titular monarch (like the Netherlands) are probably the most conducive to personal freedom and ecomic prosperity.  However, for much of the world, such a choice is not viable yet . . . just look at what a mess Iraq has turned into under the tutelage of "liberals mugged by reality" (Carl Rove's definition of "neoconservative") yet forgot all that mugging altogether and back in their social engineering dreamland.  For places like that, including much of middleast, the realistic choice really is between dictatorship vs. dictatorship by mullahs under the disguise of democracy.
 
Let's not forget, religious freedom was put into large scale practice only twice in world history.  The first time was under the Mongol military dictatorship, in order to rule their polyglot land empire.  The second time by the Dutch (and subsequently the rest of West), only after decades of mutual slaughter between Protestants and Catholics. 


Edited by brightness - 07-Aug-2006 at 10:27
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  Quote bagelofdoom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2006 at 00:37
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

In theory, yes, America is a democracy. my point is, that in practice, it is not. Can you name one American president who did not come from a very rich and influential family?



Abraham Lincoln's parent's couldn't even read.  He was born in a one room log cabin on a farm on the frontier. 

Andrew Jackson was born to Scots-Irish immigrants in backwoods South Carolina.

in more recent history, Bill Clinton's father was a traveling salesman and his stepfather owned a car dealership. 

Look at the histories of some US presidents.  Not all pulled a Kennedy or a Bush and got the job based on familial connections.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2006 at 00:01
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

America is, for all purposes, an oligarchy. And Bush jr. is all the proof one could ever possibly need to see that birth and money are very bad criteria for leadership indeed.
 
I was thinking about this myself actually, and I wondered whether the people living in the Roman Republic in the 2nd and 1st centuries BC actually believed they were living in a democracy, certainly residents of city states in the Italica peninsula didn't (as the Social Wars show), but did residents of Rome actually believe they were?
 
My best guess would be yes, for the most part the Roman people - for better or for worse largely bought into the the quasi-altruistic Ciceronian rhetoric regarding 'our allies being attacked' and so forth (as there was very rarely inter-class violence in Rome - despite events that could be confused for it, and the poor analysis of several communist historians) that served as pretexts for war, on top of this they also bought into the rhetoric of the res publica itself being threatened (numerous Roman leaders used this as pretexts for various things).
 
But in actuality, Rome was not a democracy, and you will find very, very few Historians who will conclude that the input of the people had any real tangible effect. While the facade of elections etc were kept up, the real power lay with the landed or business owning aristocratic families and with the Senate as they wielded the apparatus of Government (as well as the Army - but the point is moot as Generals were largely Senators anyway). And it does not need to be said that the divergence in opinion was pretty minimal, even the Optimates and the Populares still believed in Elites governing things, it was just that the Optimates believed in doing it under the cover of a supposedly civically-reactive republic. The irony is of course that the majority of 'working class' (if i can use the term) Romans viewed the dissasemblage of the Republic by successive Emperors in the first century AD as a method of empowerment.
 
It is interesting to draw parralels to America, not just in the propagandistic rhetoric, but in WHO actually governs the country - I mean, look at the Reagan era, the US Government basically functioned without a Chief Executive for 8 years, things were basically run by big business interests, especially in the case of Latin American foreign policy (anyone who has studied case examples like Nicaragua will know what I'm talking about).
 
I think issues such as this highlight just why History is so important, it gives us the benefit of foresight when looking at the present because of past examples.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2006 at 23:43
Originally posted by R_AK47

There is nothing wrong with the USA supporting friendly dictators.  Many dictators are fair rulers and if they support American policy then we (the USA) should support them as well, particularly in the global struggle against communism.
 
So you wouldn't mind then, in a hypothetical situation, if a superpower Greece decided to instate a Greek backed Military dictatorship in Washington?
 
The world can no longer be held hostage to the never-ending and regenerative fear that the American people suffer from in general.
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  Quote QueenCleopatra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2006 at 15:56
Friendly dictator?
 
Not exactly a word I'd have used to describe Saddam. Or Hitler. Or Stalin. Name me one good selfless  thing each of these did for their people? And don't tell they improved infrastructure or gave them running water because a dictator onyl does these things to win support for himself.
 
And why on earth should we alter  our views to please the yanks? Its not as if they'd do that for any of us. Since when do they hold sway of the earth?
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2006 at 04:42
Originally posted by Tobodai

 
Personal privacy and democracy are completely incompatable because the will of the people is always trite and conformist.  The current King of Morrocco is a far more benevolent ruler than most elected ones.   
 
 
 
I wonder if all those political prisoners rotting away in sub-human conditions in prisons in Morocco agree. I very seriously doubt it.
 
Anyway, that about personal privicy is of course crap. Personal priviacy is not bigger in countries where you are not allowed to have your own thoughts, and there are plenty of European countries where personal privacy is protected and valued. In fact, I keep hearing complaints in the news here that people do not know their neighbours anymore, which is true. Mine dont spy on me. Why would they? They dont give a crap for what I'm doing.
And here, the police is still not allowed to ask for a ID unless they have a proper reason (which is only when you are breaking the law).

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2006 at 01:07

But Bush's re-election shows the true horror of democracy, after 4 years of failure and a possibly fake original election the average joe america actually voted this guy in for a second term!  They saw the failure and decided it was not as important as preventing same gender mairriages.  Its nonsensical, and non sensical things happen when  any idiot gets a say in politics.

 
 
 
I would have to agree. The first time around, It seemed that the U.S mind control device ( Fox News ) appealed to the tabloid reader in middle America by focusing the nation on President Clinton's personal life rather than the amazing thing he accomplished in terms of foreign policy ( with the exception of Somalia ). I believe that cost Al Gore the election. It is a shame because although he may be a dull person, He is a smart one who had good ideas. Now he focuses on the ever growing problem of Global Warming while President Bush continues to violate peoples basic rights here and abroad. Sometimes i think that if this happend in the 60's, there would be protests and such. Now everyone is wating " Date My Mom ' on MTV. I am quite depressed at the United States current relations abroad. Anyway, enough babbling.
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  Quote Gloval Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 20:29
Brezhnev would be proud to find a rival in Bush, why the incompetence they both exude in their decisions is impressive to say the least.

I can say this about american presidents, they were once humble, but super powerdem can change that. I think maybe Carter was the last president not from a rich family, idk. Abraham lincoln however is well known for having been born dirt poor, whatever happend to modesty. Anyway, the american people don't usually vote in strange ways because they're not presented with madness. Gay marriages are just to elicit conservative support and nothing else. The whole war in Iraq was undertaken because it was easy to attack a weak iraq and presumably get away with it. There are so many things i can mention that are debilitating to our government but it's depressing to go on. All i can say is that it wasn't always like this, so maybe the american people will revert back to sanity once bush and his cronies leave the white house. I think he was being told what to do the whole time he's been around and the man can barely think for himself, he's just an image, nothing more.

Interesting to note though, individual states have all sorts of different attitudes and problems that people often neglect the national problems until it's voting time. That's what happens when you live in such a large and diverse country.

PS what can i say, this really isn't saving any face. We just all have to wait until Iraq cools down and people aren't crazy in their politics.
You don't spread democracy through the barrel of a gun.
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 18:39
But Bush's re-election shows the true horror of democracy, after 4 years of failure and a possibly fake original election the average joe america actually voted this guy in for a second term!  They saw the failure and decided it was not as important as preventing same gender mairriages.  Its nonsensical, and non sensical things happen when  any idiot gets a say in politics.
 
Personal privacy and democracy are completely incompatable because the will of the people is always trite and conformist.  The current King of Morrocco is a far more benevolent ruler than most elected ones.  Look at freedoms and rights granted in the US, they are usually made by the oligarchic courts and then the backlash comes from the populace. 
 
All those senators are idiots because they dont need to earn their position, instead they pander to the lowest common denominator: the people.
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 16:42
Originally posted by Giannis

 
The USA constitution doesn't agree with you.
 
Article 1, Section 1
No person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the age of twenty five years, and been seven years a citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an inhabitant of that state in which he shall be chosen.
 
Article 1, Section 3
No person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the age of thirty years, and been nine years a citizen of the United States and who shall not, when elected, be an inhabitant of that state for which he shall be chosen.
 
Article 2, Section 1
No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States. 
That's not what I meant. It's not unreasonable to bar children or foreigners from being elected. What I mean is that the vast majority of the people who are legally allowed to be elected, won't have the slightest chance to get actually elected. And that's not democratic. Of course to a certain extent that is true for all elective democracies, but in the United States it's stronger than in most Western European countries.
 
One may even argue that selecting leaders by lot is more democratic than selecting them by election.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 16:39
A recount was supposed to take place due to lost ballots and all sorts of strange things happening out in Florida. War broke out instead. Im still not too sure on why the recount never happend though.
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 09:54
And those first election were very dodgy... There were lost of stories of people being banned from voting without proper reasons and of voting billiets being made too complicated on purpose to confuse poor democratic voters. They might not be all true, but some probably are.

I heard that happened in the second too.
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  Quote Giannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 09:33

No, but I can name you numerous candidates who didn't come from a rich and influential families.

People, feel more safe to vote for a person who can recognize and that he has some fortune. They, believe that if he can manage his factory, well then maybe he can manage the country too.
 
But, that doesn't make the system oligarchic. The people votes, the people has the chance to change everything.
 
 
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