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Omar al Hashim
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Topic: Are Christians more tolerant than Muslims Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 03:57 |
Originally posted by Illuminati
He did say that, but everyone here knows that Iraq isn't about spreading Christianity or defending it. |
Originally posted by Genghis
The word crusade is often used without a religious connotation in the United States at least. If you take up any sort of struggle for what you believe is a noble cause, you could call it a crusade. |
Same is true for the word Jihad.
Originally posted by Illuminati
I will say that when it comes to the public-relations issue, Muslims are far behind Christians when it comes to being seen as fanatical. |
That is definitely true.
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Kapikulu
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Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 09:56 |
I believe the question is rotten from its roots.Such a generalisation can't be made...
Tolerance of a person depends on the individual himself/herself...His/her growth,past life, life style, education, mentality etc and can't be bound by religions.
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We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;
A Strange Orhan Veli
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Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 14:23 |
Originally posted by Kapikulu
I believe the question is rotten from its roots.Such a generalisation can't be made...
Tolerance of a person depends on the individual himself/herself...His/her growth,past life, life style, education, mentality etc and can't be bound by religions. |
here speaks a man after my own heart and probably not of my faith...hence my hat is off to the poster..with only one minor caveat...that a 'religion' might help ...if it's treated with and espoused... in the spirit of humanism ie..the good of it.....not the evil and or twisted representations of it...... to serve an agenda that was never intended.......
Edited by Wulfher ap Clun - 06-Jun-2006 at 14:24
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Arbr Z
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Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 21:28 |
Are christians toleranter than muslims????? Strange question, but anyway here is my reply; It depends on who's the christian and who's the muslim. No generalisation can work, and historicism wont help us, as the question aims to compare modern believers (not religious dogma)
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Artaxiad
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Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 09:47 |
In recent years, only Muslims have used religion as a pretext to kill. Christians have left their Crusade mentality a long time ago.
The Armenians and other Christians did use terrorism in the past, but only for nationalist purposes.
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Arbr Z
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Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 12:55 |
Yes, there are no more crussades, but what about the IRA, the incidents between the protestants and the catholics, or what about the conflicts between serbs, croats and bosnians (i m not considering Kosova, because that might be considered as a nationalistic conflist)
Serbs, Croats and Bosnians spoke the same language, and the only thing which distinguished the ones from the others was the religion. A catholic Serb is a Croat, a muslim one is a Bosnian. And they didnt mind fighting each other.
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Dampier
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Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 13:51 |
IRA and Black and Tans conflict is bloody sad. It's still true today, if Britian were to pull out now, well it wouldnt go well. But by now the actual IRA arentso much Catholic Irishmen as common criminals.
Ona more general note I think Christian leaders are more tolerant than Islamic ones. Thats just because Christian leaders are much less mainstream and that some of the Islamic leaders are militant. A Christian person is usually just as tolerant as a Christian person.
Edited by Dampier - 11-Jun-2006 at 13:53
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Menumorut
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Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 14:18 |
Could be called "Christian leaders" the European leaders? What do they have in common with Christianism?
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Loknar
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Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 21:50 |
Of course I see forum members holding their blleeding hearts in their handsweeping.
Let talk in general.
In general, if you insult Christianity, there is no major problem. In general, if you insult Islam, you get this:
30 Sept: Danish paper Jyllands-Posten publishes cartoons 20 Oct: Muslim ambassadors in Denmark complain to Danish PM 10 Jan: Norwegian publication reprints cartoons 26 Jan: Saudi Arabia recalls its ambassador 30 Jan: Gunmen raid EU's Gaza office 31 Jan: Danish paper apologises 1 Feb: Papers in France, Germany
1989: Iranian spiritual leader Ayatollah Khomeini calls on Muslims to kill British author Salman Rushdie for alleged blasphemy in his book The Satanic Verses 2002: Nigerian journalist Isioma Daniel's article about Prophet and Miss World contestants sparks deadly riots 2004: Dutch film maker Theo van Gogh killed after release of his documentary about violence against Muslim women 2005: London's Tate Britain museum cancels plans to display sculpture by John Latham for fear of offending Muslims after July bombings
BBC world news
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As well as some nice photographs of Muslims holding up sighs that say Europe youre 9-11 is next and wait until the real holocaust
Does anybody recall when Newsweek published a false story about American troops in Guantanimo Bay flushing the Koran down the toilet? Rioters in Pakistan and Afghanistan ended killing about 15 people? Do you see this in the west?
Muslims will never blend in with western society. This is not a bigoted view it is my own conclusion from the tests Muslims in the west have faced. In Europe especially they seem to expect respect for their faith or theyll burn the whole continent to the ground.
Here is a thoughtand I know the liberal minded (I dont like the conservative move movement either) wont like itin a pot of soup, if you add chicken, seasoning ect its a good pot, but when you do something crazy and add dish soap, you are only mixing something toxic.
In the here and now, in general Christians in general are more tolerant.
Edited by Loknar - 11-Jun-2006 at 21:52
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Maziar
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Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 22:13 |
Thanks Loknar, at least has sombody said the point, for which i am waiting from the begin on.
Yes, if you insult Christianity, there is no major problem. In general, if you insult Islam, you get to fear for your life.
But what is the reason? what makes christians more tolerant than Muslims?
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mamikon
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Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 22:29 |
I think most muslims are "modern" in their thoughts and do not resort
to senseless killings, riots, death threats to anyone who "insults"
Islam. Moreover I think there are as many fanatical christians as there
are fanatical muslim, or maybe just a little less. However those
fanatical christians live in a society that will throw them in jail for
life, should they resort to violence. Whereas most muslim governments,
religious leaders more or less encourage this kind of behavior. Thus
you have 1% of the population giving the other 99% a bad name.
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Roadkill
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Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 22:45 |
Reform, reform, reform..... -Christianity has undergone many reforms, such as the one instigated by Martin Luther. There are so many christian fractions with their own interpretations of the bible that tolerance is necessitated as these people live close to each other. Meanwhile, Islam has not undergone any reforms and is still stuck in the dark ages. -Significant proof that proximity creates tolerance can be found where muslims and christians are or have been neighbours, in the balkans for instance, or Spain. Under Ottoman rule the balkan areas where christians and muslims crossed paths there was no hostility between them, the same goes for Spain until the reconquista. -The lack of reform within Islam and the distancing from muslims by the west has lead to a closed society and these always stagnate. Take the USA for instance, it has a relatively large muslim population yet there were few real protests against the Muhammed cartoons. That is not to say that they were not offended but they had more respect for democratic ideals. In Norway it was pretty much the same(Though some elements, mostly recent immigrants, called for the desruction of the west), peaceful protests and respect for other's opinions. -If more "westerners" were to move to the middle east and merge with the population then slowly moderation would evolve and mutual respect(Of opinions and faith) begin to emerge. Sadly, the unstable countries, the discriminating laws and human rights violations generally discourage this. There's a reason why muslims are moving to Europe . Jordan and Lebanon are very moderate countries though.
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"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
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Dampier
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Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 06:36 |
Originally posted by Menumorut
Could be called "Christian leaders" the European leaders? What do they have in common with Christianism? |
Some European leaders are Christian but not all. An example of a Christian leader in the West would be Tony Blair.
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Digenis
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Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 07:57 |
Originally posted by Maziar
Thanks Loknar, at least has sombody said the point, for which i am waiting from the begin on.
Yes, if you insult Christianity, there is no major problem. In general, if you insult Islam, you get to fear for your life.
But what is the reason? what makes christians more tolerant than Muslims? |
For me 2 main reasons: 1.The Gospels and the Koran. Totally different spirit of the text. (For not being misunderstood ,i am not really practising religion) 2.Also ,we cannot make comparisons between Western and Middle Eastern societies,judging by religion. Religion's effect in the West in 2006,has nothing to do with the religion's effect in Middle Eastern populations.
Edited by Digenis - 12-Jun-2006 at 07:59
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Arbr Z
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Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 08:08 |
The British Salman Rushdie, how come he blended so fast with the west???
And about the rioters, the assasins or the kamikaze attentators. Most of those islamic countries you mentioned are living in poverty. Those areas could be called gettoes of the modern globe. There are some dictators who pretend to be spiritual leaders and use the religion to opress the mostly ignorant and mostly starving masses. And what happens, the westerners go there to intervene saying they will help people, but instead of this they just change the dictators, and confirm the OIL POWER. How come the western christian politicians supported most of the authoritarian governments in midlle east (with commerce or military etc). How come Saudi Arabia is regarded as a peaceful countrie, and nobody cares of its people?How come Bin Laden was trained by the americans?etc etc.
Poor people are ignorant, ignorant people are untollerant. It is true, in todays world the christians are tolleranter than the muslims, and the nonreligious tolleranter than the christians (but only in general, and we should think about the reasons). Both religions are built on intollerant dogma (the others are being watched as infidels who deserve hell, and need to convert etc etc). In different times of history both religions were spread by the sword!
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 20:45 |
Originally posted by Arber Z
In different times of history both religions were spread by the sword! |
It is a historical fact that no muslim population has ever been converted by force. Islam has never been spread by the sword.
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Maziar
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Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 23:16 |
Omar please read the history of Iran, Iranian were converted by sword in Islam.
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Maziar
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Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 23:28 |
Originally posted by Digenis
2.Also ,we cannot make comparisons between Western and Middle Eastern societies,judging by religion. Religion's effect in the West in 2006,has nothing to do with the religion's effect in Middle Eastern populations |
Yes for sure not, but we could compare the christian and muslim societies without religion too. The problem is not only the religion i think and no matter how educated a society is, they could be inrolerant in many points(not only in religion, but also in politic too). So education alone doesn't make you tolerant. As Roadkill says what they need is:
Originally posted by Roadkill
Reform, reform, refom |
and not only in religion, but also in the society, politics , economy etc.
Edited by Maziar - 12-Jun-2006 at 23:29
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 23:34 |
Maziar, Either the arabs are particularly bad a forcing people to do something or it didn't happen. It took centuaries for Iran to become majority muslim, and shia islam was around in large numbers (it didn't become dominant until Safavid times). If the Arabs had forced Iran to become muslim, it would've been quick and sunni. Neither would you have minorities of Parsees, Jews, Chrisitians or Hindus in Iran. EDIT:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism In the 7th century, the Sassanid dynasty was overthrown by the Arabs.
Although some of the later rulers had Zoroastrian shrines destroyed, or
prohibited Zoroastrian worship*, initially Zoroastrians were included as
People of the Book
and allowed to practice their religion freely. Mass conversions to
Islam were neither desired nor allowed, in accordance with Islamic law.
There was a slow but steady movement of the population of Persia toward
Islam. The nobility and city-dwellers were the first to convert. Islam
spread more slowly among the peasantry and the dihqans, or landed
gentry. Later, the jizya, a poll tax imposed on non-muslims, probably accelerated the process. |
Adding more as I find them... *That was the Safavids, in the 15th centuary. Iran was already majority muslim.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabization_and_Islamicization_in_post-conquest_Iran Islamicization in post-conquest Iran, a long process by which Islam was gradually adopted by the majority population, occurred as a result of the Islamic conquest of Persia. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_conquest_of_Persia
Muhammad, the Islamic prophet, had made it clear that the "People of the Book", Jews
and Christians, were to be tolerated so long as they submitted to
Muslim rule. It was at first unclear as to whether or not the Sassanid
state religion, Zoroastrianism,
was entitled to the same tolerance. Many Arab commanders destroyed
Zoroastrian shrines and prohibited Zoroastrian worship; yet, others may
have tolerated this native Persian religion. After some disputes, Zoroastrians were accepted as People of the Book.
Before the conquest, the Persians had been mainly Zoroastrian, however, there were also large and thriving Christian and Jewish
communities. Adherents of all three faiths were allowed to practice
their faith under the restrictions imposed by the Arab conquerors.
However, there was a slow but steady movement of the population toward Islam. The nobility and city-dwellers were the first to convert; Islam spread more slowly among the peasantry and the dihqans, or landed gentry. By the late 10th century, the majority of Persians had become Muslim. Most Persian Muslims were Sunni Muslims. Though Iran is known today as a stronghold of the Shi'a Muslim faith, it did not become so until much later around the 15th century.
In this new sect of Islam, the Shi'as projected many of their own
Persian moral and ethical values that predates Islam into the religion,
while recognizing the prophet`s son in law, Ali as an enduring symbol of justice. |
http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=58 Therefore, we should ask ourselves first,
before we are asked by anyone else, what is the truth? Did Muslims
really force others to convert to Islam? Is there any evidence for
consistent forcible conversion throughout Islamic history? As a matter
of fact, there is no such evidence anywhere in the history of Islam.
Many distinguised Western historians have attested this fact-- foremost
among whom is Sir Thomas W. Arnold in his book, "The Preaching of Islam". Also there is Marshall G. Hodgson in his book, "The Venture of Islam", Albert Hourani in his book, "A History of the Arab People", Ira Lapidus in his book, "History of Islamic Societies", L.S. Starorianos in his book, "A Global Hisotry, the Human Heritage" and many others. In fact, there is substantial evidence to the contrary. |
Edited by Omar al Hashim - 12-Jun-2006 at 23:55
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mico5bei
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Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 23:53 |
What about the Afgan afew months ago who was going to be sentenced to
death for conversion to Christianity, only foriegn intervention saved
him. I belive many muslims are still living in a medieval mindset, and
on this question i would have to say Christians are more tolerant.
Thats not to say however that there is not exceptions on both sides.
Also maybe the fact that Christians are more tolerant now is to do with
that fact that they are less and less faithful and most don't care
about what the pope or other religious leaders say anymore. However
Muslims are still very faithful when compared with Christians.
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