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    Posted: 17-May-2006 at 12:58

i think the english longbow men of king richard have got to be the best archers but i was wondering who u guys think is the best i know that the huns archers on horse back were pretty good to

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  Quote Svantoretro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2006 at 17:55
Bernard Cornwell, the author of "Heretic", is obviously impressed by them.  "Heretic" would be an exciting read for anyone interested in English archers.  Those wicked, armor-piercing, "bodkin" arrows!
The Hungarian Magyars were supposedly very proficient in shooting arrows from horseback (much like Apache indians...).  It is rumored that they made a refreshing cocktail from the blood of their victims...Dead
(I gotta go hurl now...)


Edited by Svantoretro - 17-May-2006 at 17:59
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2006 at 02:39
Originally posted by fullplateman

i think the english longbow men of king richard have got to be the best archers but i was wondering who u guys think is the best i know that the huns archers on horse back were pretty good to



Those longbowmen, few as they were, would most likely have been Welsh. Also, they weren't the only archers used by Richard, at battles such as Jaffa he combined longbowmen with crossbowmen together to shoot at Saladin's forces behind a shield wall of armored infantry.

Different types of archers and bows worked best in different environment. Composite bow horse archery was great on the open steppes, but longbows could be highly effective in wet, forested hilly areas such as their place of origin (Wales).
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  Quote shurite7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2006 at 18:07
There is no recorded instance where Richard I used longbowmen.  At Jaffa Richard I used crossbowmen.  Militarily, the longbow did not become prominent until the 1300's.
 
 
Cheers

Chris
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  Quote Dampier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 14:02
Richard used the crossbow to surprise the Muslim horsemen with its long range. The only longbowmen at this time (though some were no doubt in the Holy Land as retinues to Welsh knights) were Welsh and were hired as mercenaries by border knights. Even by the 1300's longbowmen were not hugely accurate, in fact they were deliberately taught not to be accurate so as to stop poaching, instead they were trained to be the fastest. The Welsh retained their title as the best longbowmen. Richard also used Saracen Faris and other native archers with shortbows.
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2006 at 01:01
There were some longbowmen at Jaffa, but they were not the decisive and battle winning force which they were when the English redesigned their army after losing at Bannockburn.
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  Quote Dampier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2006 at 07:37
Were there really? Were they English and not just Welsh mercenaries/men at arms? Any information would be much appreciated. Thanks.
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2006 at 09:54
From what I remember reading they were Welshmen, but as they had to be mixed in with crossbowmen it is likely there were so few of them that they were not a decisive force on their own. It made more sense psychologically to have them deliver a single, powerful volley with the crossbowmen. Like musket carriers at a later date, the single powerful volley did more damage to enemy morale even if individual shooting might have resulted in more efficient killing.
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  Quote Dampier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2006 at 13:20
Thank you, I was sure it would be the Welsh. As you mention one big volley works but also using a light unit to snipe enemy officers/NCO's (thinking British Rifleman here) mixed with the volley provides even more descisive results.
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  Quote Maljkovic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 05:11
My fav is the Genoveese crossbowmen. They had better range then the longbow and greater precision. Only problem is they needed more time to reload, but they were efective in close quarters like say the heat of battle and not just while the enemy was charging an open field. And yes, they could pierce the chainmail just like the Welsh.
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  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 07:54
You know that the Welsh Longbowmen slaughtered the Genoveese during a battle in the Hundred Years War.

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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 08:09
That was Crecy wasn't it? The longbowmen can't take all the credit though, the Frankish cavalry killed plenty when they became impatient with the Genoese mercenaries, charging and trampling over the top of them without giving them time to withdraw. I guess that saves on paying the poor buggers Wink.
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  Quote Gavriel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 08:38
The majority of the Longbowmen at Crecy and in the hundreds year war in general were English not Welsh.
The English Kings used Welsh bowmen in there army's because the Welsh people had allways used the Bow in the villages and such,so there was a ready supply of big strong Archers.The English exploited this and drafted the village people of Wales into there army's.
However the English soon made it a law in England that all the peasentry children had to train with the Longbow,the Kings sent inspectors to the villages to make sure this was done (he even banned footbal!) and that the kids were progressing with higher draw weights depending on there age ,i believe the training started at 6 and you were ready for the wars at 16years old.
The Welsh men were still in the English army but by the time of Crecy there numbers had been overtaken by the English Archers.

Regardless,Welsh men and English men taught the French Knights a lesson at Crecy Big smile.
I dont think the French heeded the warning though,wasnt Poiters nearly iddentical to Crecy?

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  Quote Dampier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 09:36
Poitiers was identical to Crecy.
The destruction of the Geonese also was because of the incompeta\nce of the french generals who ordered them forwards without pavises and because of the rain.
And by the Hundred Years War most longbowmen were English.
@Maljkovic, the longbowmen were just as effective in combat, in fact more so as all carried short swords and long knives. After the volleys they would attack and loot the bodies, killing the wounded. They also became involved if there was no other choice or if they ran out of arrows. Longbows are effectoive at close quarters too, more so as its so quick to reload whereas the Geonese can only get off one shot before combat. Look at the Anglo-Welsh wars for examples. Longbows are just as precise, it depends on the quality of the bow, generally I believe the Geonese had better crossbows (as they were mercenaries)  than the part time longbowmen.
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  Quote Gavriel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 10:40
I was under the impression that the Archers in the English army were a fully professional force?there was no part timers involved they were a full time army.

The Genoise didnt have better quality weapons,the crossbow is different not better.The only advantage i can see to the crossbow is its range,the Longbows rate of fire makes up for that.Longbow's are only a one man job were as its a two man job to use the Crossbows effectively (one to hold the pavis).

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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 11:13
The crossbow had greater penetrating power and typically greater accuracy (although especially proficient longbow users could still shoot with admirable accuracy). The crossbow took little time to learn how to use, the longbows took many years of practice. So evident was this that the English government banned all sports on Sunday with the exception of archery. Archery tournaments were organised with substantial prizes awarded in some cases, somewhat egalitarian in an age where most men had to be high born to compete in the competitive jousting matches.
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  Quote Dampier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 12:53
Longbowmen were part time in the sense that they were not a standing force, more of a militia to call upon. They spent most of their lives as peasent and only fought when called under their feudal obligations.
 
Crossbows have greater penetration as well as range (not that its actually needed, studies have proven that longbow arrows could not penetrate plate armour but such was the kinetic energy built up they would liquify internal organs and cause massive internal damage). Accuracy is a toss up, as well made longbow is as good as awell amde crossbow but crossbows are generally more accurate as they take longer to build and are more of a professional weapon hence more work is put in.
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  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 12:56
Originally posted by Constantine XI

That was Crecy wasn't it? The longbowmen can't take all the credit though, the Frankish cavalry killed plenty when they became impatient with the Genoese mercenaries, charging and trampling over the top of them without giving them time to withdraw. I guess that saves on paying the poor buggers Wink.

Yes, the battle I was talking about was Crecy.

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  Quote Maljkovic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2006 at 05:43
The full plate armor was very expensive and therefore rare. The mainstay of knight cavalry had quilted chainmails, maybe a few plates in strategic places at best. Full plate was resistant to longbow arrows as well.
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  Quote Dampier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2006 at 08:37
Full Plate is resistant but the kinetic energy still kills. Chainmail is of course not resistant (hence shields). Depends on the period for the full plate.
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