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Atheists/Agnostics/Pagans/Kaffirs are better human beings

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  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Atheists/Agnostics/Pagans/Kaffirs are better human beings
    Posted: 12-May-2006 at 22:00
Ahh, you would have to hold the tomatoes on that sandwhich.

As for "Atheists/Agnostics/Pagans/Kaffirs are better human beings" as a title is concerned, I do not believe it to be true. It is just an opinion (if not a narrow one) and I can perfectly say that i know good samaritins who are christians

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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2006 at 22:00

Originally posted by Sherzod

even if you are right and I am wrong(which is not true), I still after death have more chance of being better off than you do! that's as simple as this!

Is that what religion is really about, being afraid to go to Hell? I don't mind going to hell if it means not seeing all these self-righteous people self-congratulating themselves that somehow they've "made it" (by blindly obeying all those man-made laws and committing all sorts of crimes against other human beings in the name of religion) and sneering at those who don't. Above all, I don't want to meet this so-called "god" creature that is stupid, jealous, hateful, unjust, revengeful, etc.

So bring it on.



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  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2006 at 22:18
Originally posted by Sherzod

Why worry about hell, being fettered and tied to an irrational and inflexible artificial structure during ones life would be punishment enough. 

 

who knows? maybe you'll find out why to worry about hell, when you will be taken there?

but, unfortunately your findings would be too little, too late by then!


Why should I be taken to "hell". I am a good human being, that is much nicer than much of the religious that will go to heaven. Again, why should I worry about hell? Why should I worry about something that has no scientific or logical evidence. What kind of a just creator could do that? You obviously have given into fear. Myself, as an agnostic, has not given into fear because I do not need to worry about such illogical things.

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  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2006 at 22:20
Originally posted by flyingzone

Originally posted by Sherzod

even if you are right and I am wrong(which is not true), I still after death have more chance of being better off than you do! that's as simple as this!

Is that what religion is really about, being afraid to go to Hell? I don't mind going to hell if it means not seeing all these self-righteous people self-congratulating themselves that somehow they've "made it" (by blindly obeying all those man-made laws and committing all sorts of crimes against other human beings in the name of religion) and sneering at those who don't. Above all, I don't want to meet this so-called "god" creature that is stupid, jealous, hateful, unjust, revengeful, etc.

So bring it on.


Nice post Eaglecap. I agree, bring it on!



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  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2006 at 22:23
Originally posted by Sherzod

even if you are right and I am wrong(which is not true), I still after death have more chance of being better off than you do! that's as simple as this!

I would rather go to hell than believe in such illogical and irrational things as you have posted. You religious claim to be "moral", yet you here are saying that practically everybody in this thread deserves eternal torture. Very moral!

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  Quote Sherzod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2006 at 22:35

Is this an atheist web forum or what??? never met so many of you at once! which scares me, reminding about the apocalypsis!

The holy Quran clearly states, if you reach the meaning carefully, that this current life (passing life) is a test for us, the humans(though, it does not mean a struggle, it all depends on you). Accordingly, how you pass this test, will decide your real future (eternal life) after your death. And all those negative experiences that you might come up to during this passing life are also  a part of the test, though testing your real level of faith.

You just do not know what heaven or hell is, that is easy for you now just speak all what you want. But, the reality is that hell - imagine a place which is worse than you can't even imagine(in other words unimiganably bad place JAHANNAM).

at the other extreme, imagine a place which is better than you can't even imagine (simply, unimiganably good JANNAH)

no 3rd option (you cant stay on earth, its not up to you)

So, every believer should keep in mind that Allah the creator has given him the chance to live, to be a human being, the right to choose (imagine Allah initially made you a stone or even worse has not created you), and plus to this priceless gift he is offering you the eternal good life for you.

He only asks us people, to do those little things for him that he wrote in Quran.

He gives as the chance of experiencing eternal paradise just only if we sacrificy only a bit of our time within that blink of an eye!  

every Muslim should fear Jahannam and aim only at Jannah, because every believer truly understands the greatness of meaning of these extremes. and it is true that everybody streams towards getting to Jannah. and Allah only wants you to give him a little part , alittle effort during that that blink of an eye, in exchange for eternal Jannah!?

Isn't this a fair trade?  

"Power is in fairness...!" - Amir Temur (1336-1405)
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  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2006 at 22:43
It would be a fair trade if it was actually true. How do you know it is true? Because when you were a young child you were told it was true? You have no scientific evidence. Your religion even contradicts itself. It is just sad that you are not able to question any of the stuff that you were taught. Besides, for reference, I'm an agnostic, not an athiest.

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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2006 at 22:46
Originally posted by Sherzod

The holy Quran clearly states (blah blah blah)

What Quran? I don't know no Quran. I do like reading those Japanese manga, though. Are they the same? Are those manga "holy" too??? I definitely think so.

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2006 at 23:00

The amount of atheists on this forum has to do with the level of intelligence of the forum members.  Though I am not sure if I would cassify myself as atheist because I never rule anything out completely, but I do know that if god does exist his followers are so despicable that I would still wage furious resistence against him.

But Sherzod brings up an excellent point I wanted to touch on.  Fear.  Fear is the basis of religion.  That is why so many people are religious, because most humans are cowardly beings.  When I die its like a broken machine, and thus I will simply cease to be sentient and my body will break down in decay.  SO waht?  I see no reason why there should even be such a thing as a soul but lets say there is for sake of argument.  So? theres a soul? Of all the infinite possibilities why is Islam or Christianity somehow correct?  Your prophet told you so? Well some people considered david Koresh a prophet and some people believe in scientology.  Doesnt mean any of that is any more or less preposterous.

Even if you could prove to me that your one narrow dogmatic religion is somehow correct I would still think it would be ethically wrong to go with such a system of opression with a proven track record of failure on the grounds that it would be morally wrong to sell out to such a system just because it was established.  It would be like being a Frenchmen who joins the Vichy government because the Germans rule the country.

Apparently, for all my cyniscm with people, on a philosophical level I have more hope for humanity than religious nuts who want to bring about forced conversions, torture, and the apocalypse so that they can have a greater sense of security like rats hiding in a hole.  I think people can do well enough by dooing it their own way and that they will make a much better world if people figure out whats best for all of us rather than for the imiginary hippy/buddha/genie in the sky.


 

"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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  Quote Sherzod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2006 at 23:15

HANG ON! WHY IS IT ME, WHO SHOULD CONVINCE YOU THAT GOD EXISTS AND ISLAM IS CORRECT? WHY ME? I KNOW FOR MY PART THAT I AM CORRECT, IF I HAD THE WILL THEN MAYBE I WOULD EVEN BRING THE ARGUMENTS. BUT, LOOKING AT YOUR VIEWPOINTS I GIVE THE QUESTION TO MYSELF - WHY SHOULD I HELP THESE PEOPLE? WHO ARE EVEN ALLOWING THEMSELVES TO TEASE THE CREATOR HIMSELF AND HIS RELIGION? WHY SHOULD I SAVE THEM FROM BURNING IN HELL?

THE ANSWER IS - BECAUSE ALLAH NOMATTER WHAT YOU DO IS MERCIFULL, AND I AS THIS IS GODS WILL CHALLENGING YOU IN YOUR MISTAKEN VIEWPOINTS.

JUST TELL ME, WHY SHOULDN'T HE EXIST? 

"Power is in fairness...!" - Amir Temur (1336-1405)
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2006 at 23:32

Abrahamic faiths r to humans what carrot and stick are to donkeys. Just an observation.

Why shouldnt he exist?

Only a stupid person would try to answer that.

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  Quote Sherzod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2006 at 23:38
gosh, another atheist?
"Power is in fairness...!" - Amir Temur (1336-1405)
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2006 at 23:41

 

       I'll not challenge you on that. It doesn't matter.  What my point is, you believe this and that's fine.  These ideas work for you, great, and I'm not being sarcastic, I respect that.

       My belief system doesn't include these concepts, I have my own and they work for me, and I ask that you respect that as well.   

"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
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  Quote Sherzod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2006 at 00:00
Originally posted by red clay

 

       I'll not challenge you on that. It doesn't matter.  What my point is, you believe this and that's fine.  These ideas work for you, great, and I'm not being sarcastic, I respect that.

       My belief system doesn't include these concepts, I have my own and they work for me, and I ask that you respect that as well.   

I accept that, but I can not repect that! Because what you see at me is - a naive guy, who "even" beleives in the existance of God! (I am not losing anything)

but I see in you - a person who is in a mistaken path which contradicts to what Allah has teached, thus a person who needs help before it is too late. My debates, in no means are of value for me, but you should consider them as a value for you, because the only things I am saing is I am trying to help

"Power is in fairness...!" - Amir Temur (1336-1405)
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2006 at 00:06
Originally posted by Sherzod

but I see in you - a person who is in a mistaken path which contradicts to what Allah has teached, thus a person who needs help before it is too late. My debates, in no means are of value for me, but you should consider them as a value for you, because the only things I am saing is I am trying to help

Why do you think we need your so-called "help"???? Such arrogance and self-righteousness ....

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  Quote Sherzod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2006 at 00:24
Originally posted by flyingzone

Originally posted by Sherzod

but I see in you - a person who is in a mistaken path which contradicts to what Allah has teached, thus a person who needs help before it is too late. My debates, in no means are of value for me, but you should consider them as a value for you, because the only things I am saing is I am trying to help

Why do you think we need your so-called "help"???? Such arrogance and self-righteousness ....

BECAUSE: ALLAH IS THE ALMIGHTY CREATOR

BECAUSE: ISLAM IS HIS RELIGION

BECAUSE: QURAN IS HIS BOOK

BECAUSE: MUHAMMAD IS HIS PROPHET

NOBODY IN THE WORLD CAN RECONVINCE ME IN THIS!!!

 

PS

read more acurately, maybe some more meanings are due to come out for you! I said accordind to my view point! 

"Power is in fairness...!" - Amir Temur (1336-1405)
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  Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2006 at 00:45
People who adhere to almost all religions, but in particular, Abrahamic religions are invariably corrupt, they believe that no matter what sin they opt to commit, simply repenting will redeem them in the eyes of the almighty and they will inevitably go to heaven!


What's being better human beings... What moral principles are the criterion of being better human beings...

Whether we are believers or not, our brains are all formatted by Abrahamic religions. Religions don't only say who will go heaven and other who will go hell, but also say what's true and what's wrong, which is common-sense today. I am afraid, those who are better human being than others must be someone like the "good person" definition of Abrahamic religions. And those who are evil must be one of the evils of Abrahamic religions. So If just those who don't believe in Abrahamic religions are capable of the moral principles of Abrahamic religions, I would only say that what terrible paradox it is.

I think an atheist should be able to disagree with all the Abrahamic principles of right and wrong. So an atheist should be able to say that injured or ill people must be killed for benefits of state, like Aristotle said. (source: sevivon) for example.
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  Quote Loknar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2006 at 03:00

flyingzone

I would ask you the same thing....why do you atheists pity us worshippers?

And personally, I dont pity atheists. Of course I think they are wrong just as you think I am wrong nothi8ng wrong with believing that. It just shows you have confidence in your beliefs.



Edited by Loknar
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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2006 at 03:40
I know the topic was started with an intentional generalisation but there is no need to continue in that manner.

As far as religions go, I only really know the Christian well enough.
But to treat the whole spectrum of Christianity as one monolithic block, with out paying attention to the myriads of variation in the content of the beliefs of Christian Churches and Sects or, as relevant here, to the great diversifications in their moral codici, is extremely superficial.
To equate the ethics of a group as the Cathars, to name a well known medieval "heresy", with those of contemporary fundamentalist Baptist Churches in the American Bible Belt, is sheer nonsense. Not to mention modern exponents of "Liberation theology" that have nothing in common with the clowns that populate TBN ("Trinity Broadcasting Network"- Evangelist TV station), but a very vague common reference to the founders of Christian religions.
How you all can judge Christianity ( or all Abrahamic religions for that matter) in one big swoop, without firtsly analysing their tremendous variations and secondly investigating the historical background( economic, social, political, cultural) on which they developed, is beyond me.
And I'm sure, what is said here about Christianity alone is also valid for any other major religion, or for those non-religious belief systems, as atheism or agnosticism.

Edited by Komnenos
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2006 at 06:07
Originally posted by Zagros

People who adhere to almost all religions, but in particular, Abrahamic religions are invariably corrupt, they believe that no matter what sin they opt to commit, simply repenting will redeem them in the eyes of the almighty and they will inevitably go to heaven!  The most evil people today are religious zealots, utter hypocrites from the likes of Iran's political mollahs to Western politicians like George Bush and his ilk to corrupt and/or perverted paedophilic priests, ministers, rabbis and emams.

Discuss.

Some are, that's true. So, I guess I disagree with the invariably part but agree with the rest. Most people adhere to some or other ideology, not necessarily religious.

Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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