Atheists/Agnostics/Pagans/Kaffirs are better human beings

Originally posted by Tobodai Because all organized religions are against free will.  They say that because you can do anything you have free will, but if you say that beleiving something else condemns you to hell but you can still do it is basically saying, no debate, no introspection just beleive or die.  Tends to stifle self examnination and questioning of authority, which are two traits I find absolutely essential in the making of a smart, indipendant human being.

Choices have consequences, whether they be in the here or the hereafter. We can freely choose to try and better ourselves; likewise, we can freely choose to do evil. As for death, it is an inevitability.

Once again, how does Christian morality stifle self-examination any more than any other belief system? Much to the contrary it gives us a proper context in which to examine ourselves. It also gives us a proper check against false authority. Since all human beings have belief systems, and indeed all recognize authority (even if they recognize themselves), I fail to see how the Christian interpretation of free-will either precludes freedom of choice or hinders self-examination.

-Akolouthos

Originally posted by Pieinsky And communism counts as a religion Loknar.  Ive seen Mao's tomb and how he is worshipped.  The communist movement has prophets, blind followers and everything else.  Indeed, politics is a religion of sorts which is why I say never trust anyone with an non practical ideology.

 

Then what doesn't count as a religion? Who is to decide? What is the difference between the practical and the non-practical. I believe this treads dangerously close to relativism, which is, in itself, a form of absolutism in this context.

 

Yea exactly, they get you when you�re a little lamb, right when you see adults as wise knower of the world and when you lack a substantial amount of concepts to see their ideology flaws.

 

Addressed in a previous post.

 

-Akolouthos

"Choices have consequences, whether they be in the here or the hereafter. We can freely choose to try and better ourselves; likewise, we can freely choose to do evil. As for death, it is an inevitability."

And God knows we are faulty, christians make faults, atheists make faults, maybe even chimpanzees make faults, and still God watches us suffer and make faults just like we did 2,000 or 6,000 or more years ago. Nothing has changed before or after christianity - God seems more and more like a massochist as he knows already by logical conclusion that it is impossible for a man to change. The experiment has lasted for millenias and millenias, we are still the same as we ever were, dieing, raping, murdering, mutilating, molesting children, committing genocide. You could actually say that genocide is a pretty new thing on large scale so we are deteriorating. God could just pull the plug if he/it had any mercy. When you look at life past the white picket fence where being a christian is a very, very comfortable habit, you'll see that redemption is going further and further on extreme levels.

"Once again, how does Christian morality stifle self-examination any more than any other belief system?"

I don't know about you, but God made me this way, i can't change my way of being or thoughts. I can't ruin Gods work.

I was actually referring to the point by point post on the first page, but this will do as well.

Originally posted by Kalevipoeg The experiment has lasted for millenias and millenias, we are still the same as we ever were, dieing, raping, murdering, mutilating, molesting children, committing genocide. You could actually say that genocide is a pretty new thing on large scale so we are deteriorating. God could just pull the plug if he/it had any mercy. When you look at life past the white picket fence where being a christian is a very, very comfortable habit, you'll see that redemption is going further and further on extreme levels.

And when you create a universe you may govern it as you will.

Seriously though, you do raise some very important issues. Why doesn't God always intervene on behalf of the oppressed? Part of it is as a consequence of the fall and the continuing disobedience of man--insofar as that is the cause of suffering, etc. Part of it is simply incomprehensible, for God Himself is incomprehensible.

An early Church Father once asked an Angel why some were wealthy, some poor, some strong, others weak. The angel replied that the answers the monk sought belonged to the incomprehensible ways of God, and that it was not to the monks profit to learn of them. I realize this seems unsatisfactory to the uninitiated, but I think it may give you some idea how we Christians can make it through a day without killing ourselves.

Originally posted by Kalevipoeg I don't know about you, but God made me this way, i can't change my way of being or thoughts. I can't ruin Gods work.

I think you should probably read the rest of the post you cited and the post I wrote in response to your initial assertions. Part of your creation was the gift of free-will, which you apply every day. I do take your point though (or at least I hope it was your point): When misinterpreted, the Christian doctrine of free-will can lead to fatalism and a shirking of responsibility.

Originally posted by Kalevipoeg The official Bible is a piece of literature of parts which were selected by random people after Jesus' death and from which many parts were left out because these apostels were prejudiced to some writings.

You actually seem to have a more tolerant view toward the canon than many atheists I have encountered. Most believe that it was a simple set of political goals that inspired the formation of the Canon.

The true basis for the Canon lies in Christ's promise of the Holy Spirit, which was to lead the Church into truth in all things.

Originally posted by Kalevipoeg So the lottery might be that only about ten people end up in heaven. Gods ways are mysterious.

Aptly put. A sobering thought, is it not? Still, we know for sure that Enoch and Elijah are there...and there were twelve apostles.

-Akolouthos

Originally posted by Sherzod -CHRISTTIANITY HAS MANY FAULTS(CAUSE IT HAS BEEN CHANGED AND NOT THE ORIGINAL VERSION, AND ALSO IT IS OUTDATED)

A mischaracterization. Not quite sure how to have the "Christianity is not final revelation/not pure in form --VS.-- Islam is a Christian compound heresy" debate without it degenerating into an inevitable flame war, however. So I will simply refer to the sentence immediately preceeding this one, which states the two points of view.

-Akolouthos

Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa Every religion is illogical, as it presents not one shred of evidence to support it.

I think you have a point, but am a bit worried by the semantics.

Firstly, there is evidence to support religious systems of belief (and not just my own). They are the Scriptures, miracles, traditions, and tales of religious groups all over the world. It is up for each individual to decide whether or not to accept this evidence. If you had inserted the word "scientific" in front of evidence, I would have no problem with it. Sorry about the nitpickyness, but I do feel these issues are very important.

I also don't feel that it is entirely accurate to say that religion is illogical. True some of the Christian belief contravenes logic, but to say that it is illogical--implying that it is devoid of, or does not observe the principles of logic--I feel, is too strong. After all, much of the Trinitarian and Christological debates, as well as issues of Church governance, sacramental theology, etc. is steeped in logic. I think where we disagree is the degree to which logic can be helpful to us. Thus, I feel illogical is too strong a term.

-Akolouthos

Edited by Akolouthos

Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa Sorry, I will add scientific evidence.

I agree with you.

-Akolouthos

Why worry about hell, being fettered and tied to an irrational and inflexible artificial structure during ones life would be punishment enough. 

 

who knows? maybe you'll find out why to worry about hell, when you will be taken there?

but, unfortunately your findings would be too little, too late by then!

Fellas fellas please, nobody is right and nobody is wrong. What we as indivduals concieve to be real, is real for each and everyone of us. Sherzod believes there is a hell, red clay believes there is no hell. You can both be right. It is just simple faith that guides us in the end. Faith in God, or faith that only you can decide for yourself if there is or is not a higher being.

 

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