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Iranian41ife View Drop Down
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Posts: 1832 		  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Iran ready to attack Turkey
    Posted: 28-Apr-2006 at 22:37
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Iranian41ife:

A few comments:

There are many official, and unofficial, web resources dealing with defence matters that can be checked.  Iran's army and air force are rated below those of Iraq in 1991.  In technology and operational readiness, there is little to compare with any NATO forces.  I can't address morale, and that can't be quantified, but the morale of Turkish military forces rates very high.  Air superiority of Turkish military would be quickly attained.  They are well aware of, and integrated into NATO operational doctrine.

what does navy forces have to do with this? neither side would use their navies for anything.

secondly, the turkish airforce is superior in numbers and technology, but dont mistake the f-16's the US has with the f-16's they sell turkey.

and irans shahab missiles will make up for what iran doesnt have in airforce.

the majority of the iranian army wont fight for the mullahs, but they will fight against an invading force.

Originally posted by pikeshot1600

As to NATO not supporting a NATO member attacked by Iran, please give that some more thought.  Those contingencies will also have been serioulsy looked at.

ok, if turkey decides to join the USA in a war that the rest of NATO wont support, then they wouldnt support it if iran attacks the invading forces.

do you understand? technically, NATO should have gone into iraq with the US, but they didnt.

Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Record oil prices - hmmmmm.  It seems we already have those.  In the case of our scenario here, Iran loses much access to oil from the Caspian, and that falls more securely under Russian influence - which they will be reluctant to surrender again.  The Gulf they lose completely, and who knows when they get that back?  Who do you think gets it in the neck more?

Of course, none of this is going to happen.

lol, i know that the $80 bucks every week is already coming down hard on your budget, imagine if it was $100 dollars a week, just to fill up your car.

 

 
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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Posts: 949 		  Quote Illuminati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2006 at 23:14
and irans shahab missiles will make up for what iran doesnt have in airforce.

 Iran can't protect it's communication and air defense networks against cruies missile strikes and stealth bombers. The US and Turkey (or even just the US by itself) would have air superiority within a few days. Iranian Air defense wouldn't be as formidable as you make it out to be. If the US did attack, air defense positions will eb the first things hit by stealth bombers, so conventional planes would be able to come in and bomb other targets.

Iran would have the missile sites that the US didn't see, but there aren't enough of those to force the US air force to retreat.

Iran has a poor air force, and it is small in numbers. With the US having air superiority, the Organized Iranian army is pretty much doomed. Iran's only hope is to conduct guerilla warfare. Good tanks and vehicles mean squat when you're being pounded from the air. Take a look at how badly the Iraqi armor faired in 1991 against NATO air forces. It doesn't matter that they had weaker tanks, they were completely crushed from the air.

Without air cover, Iranian forces would gradually lose ground. They wouldn't be able to hold any strategic positions. Mountainous fighting would be intense, but without the ability to concentrate their forces in strategic areas, Iran couldn't stop the invading forces.

now, if we're discussing just Turkey and Iran...Turkey would eventually gain ari superiority, but it'd take a long time. THey'd have no stealth planes with which to sneak in and take out air defense networks. However, they would know the location of air defense networks, so thier success would depend on their ability to launch a surprise assault.


Edited by Illuminati
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Posts: 1832 		  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2006 at 00:01
are we talking about iran vs. turkey or iran vs. USA, you seem to be either mixing the two or talking about iran vs. USA.
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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Posts: 1832 		  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2006 at 00:03

Originally posted by Illuminati



now, if we're discussing just Turkey and Iran...Turkey would eventually gain ari superiority, but it'd take a long time. THey'd have no stealth planes with which to sneak in and take out air defense networks. However, they would know the location of air defense networks, so thier success would depend on their ability to launch a surprise assault.

i just said, iran can attack turkey's infrastructure with the need for an airforce using missiles.

both would technically have air superiority, iran would attack with missiles, turkey would attack with planes.

but planes are eaisier to shoot down than missiles, and with the new anti aircraft systems iran is getting from russia, the inferior f-16's (compared to the US or western Europes) wont stand much of a chance in the air.

an iran turkey war would end up the same as the iran iraq war. turkey would get tons of support from the west, iran would get 0, and the war will end in a stalemate.
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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Posts: 921 		  Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2006 at 00:20
Originally posted by Iranian41ife

what does navy forces have to do with this? neither side would use their navies for anything.
before stating something with this confidence I would rather search for some info first. to my knowledge US has navy bases in Bahrain and Qatar (with the estimated expenditure of $800 million). I would guess there are also military bases of US 3rd army in Kuwait, Oman, UAE, and probably Saudi arabia (There should be a military pact between 5 Arab states and the US.)
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2006 at 11:07
Iran vs turkey, would end in a stalemate. No one can attack the other and win. No matter how strong turkey is, it wont last inside Iran. Iran hasnt got much in attacking strength outside of those very expensive (and limited numbers) of ballistic missiles. Since i dont think either side could do more than attack the other in a limited way, there can never be a outright 'winner' in such a scenerio.

on a technical point.

Turkish F16's are getting upgraded to a rather advanced state. 117 kits (with options for more) are ment to be ordered to create a new common standard for the rest of the fleet. The Blk 40/50's will be upgraded with blk52/52+ avionics which would make them in this way, equal to what greece has currently ordered and only inferior to UAE and Isreal (i supsect singapore) not the USA. Nothing in western europe (maybe the polish) is as good as what the greeks have ordered, or what the turks are upgrading to. The USA aircraft are in general older and have some key avionics that isnt exported. They do not always have the latest Blk avionics or designs built in.

Also many turkish jets have SEADs capability, and the turks have Isreali weapons, including popeyes (and harpy drones which can hunt down those SAM's around the border). In saying all of that, the F16 is not designed as a proper strike aircraft and hasn't the size to cover Iran well. Your safe in balochistan.

Do not underestimate each other.



Edited by Leonidas
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Posts: 1832 		  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2006 at 11:31

Originally posted by ramin

Originally posted by Iranian41ife

what does navy forces have to do with this? neither side would use their navies for anything.
before stating something with this confidence I would rather search for some info first. to my knowledge US has navy bases in Bahrain and Qatar (with the estimated expenditure of $800 million). I would guess there are also military bases of US 3rd army in Kuwait, Oman, UAE, and probably Saudi arabia (There should be a military pact between 5 Arab states and the US.)

i am talking about turkey and iran. after all, this subject is about turkey and iran. pikeshot is just mixing up turkey and the USA, sometimes he talks about turkey, sometimes he talks about USA.

i am talking about turkey and iran.
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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Posts: 4221 		  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2006 at 12:11
Originally posted by Iranian41ife

Originally posted by ramin

Originally posted by Iranian41ife

what does navy forces have to do with this? neither side would use their navies for anything.
before stating something with this confidence I would rather search for some info first. to my knowledge US has navy bases in Bahrain and Qatar (with the estimated expenditure of $800 million). I would guess there are also military bases of US 3rd army in Kuwait, Oman, UAE, and probably Saudi arabia (There should be a military pact between 5 Arab states and the US.)

i am talking about turkey and iran. after all, this subject is about turkey and iran. pikeshot is just mixing up turkey and the USA, sometimes he talks about turkey, sometimes he talks about USA.

i am talking about turkey and iran.

For purposes of this scenario, Turkey and the United States are both members of NATO.  Certainly they both have their own national interests, but in the case of "an IRI attack on Turkey" they become obligated under treaty.

These types of contingencies will have been extensively discussed between them, and with other NATO members.

 
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Posts: 1355 		  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2006 at 12:55

Turkish military is superior to the Iranian one on paper, but not nearly strong enough to walk to Tahran. I agree with Zagros, Iran would be able to check Turkish advance in the mountains, and it would become a war of attrition.

One thing you armchair generals missed is that if America atacks Iran, it will do so from the West, from Iraq, from the East from Afghanistan, as well as from the Gulf in the South. Still, America alone won't be able to invade Iran, it will have similar problems in the mountains.

In case of NATO vs Iran, as in Turkey + USA attacking Iran from everywhere, yeah, Iran would fold. But the aftermath may make Iraq look like a picnic.

Anyway, this is mostly speculation, since Turkey won't fight Iran because America wants so. Turkey is American client, but not American puppet. Unless, of course, Iran acts really really stupidly and gives a real pretext for NATO response. Turkey won't even allow Americans to use its bases to bomb Iran. If the government allows this, it won't survive.

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Posts: 1832 		  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2006 at 13:26
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Originally posted by Iranian41ife

Originally posted by ramin

Originally posted by Iranian41ife

what does navy forces have to do with this? neither side would use their navies for anything.
before stating something with this confidence I would rather search for some info first. to my knowledge US has navy bases in Bahrain and Qatar (with the estimated expenditure of $800 million). I would guess there are also military bases of US 3rd army in Kuwait, Oman, UAE, and probably Saudi arabia (There should be a military pact between 5 Arab states and the US.)

i am talking about turkey and iran. after all, this subject is about turkey and iran. pikeshot is just mixing up turkey and the USA, sometimes he talks about turkey, sometimes he talks about USA.

i am talking about turkey and iran.

For purposes of this scenario, Turkey and the United States are both members of NATO.  Certainly they both have their own national interests, but in the case of "an IRI attack on Turkey" they become obligated under treaty.

These types of contingencies will have been extensively discussed between them, and with other NATO members.

 

pikeshot, read the first post in this thread, the article.

it says that if hte USA attacks from turkey, then iran will retaliate by attacking those bases in turkey.

you are assuming that iran is the aggressor. NATO will not join a war in which one of its members, USA, decides to start.

Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Turkish military is superior to the Iranian one on paper, but not nearly strong enough to walk to Tahran. I agree with Zagros, Iran would be able to check Turkish advance in the mountains, and it would become a war of attrition.

One thing you armchair generals missed is that if America atacks Iran, it will do so from the West, from Iraq, from the East from Afghanistan, as well as from the Gulf in the South. Still, America alone won't be able to invade Iran, it will have similar problems in the mountains.

In case of NATO vs Iran, as in Turkey + USA attacking Iran from everywhere, yeah, Iran would fold. But the aftermath may make Iraq look like a picnic.

Anyway, this is mostly speculation, since Turkey won't fight Iran because America wants so. Turkey is American client, but not American puppet. Unless, of course, Iran acts really really stupidly and gives a real pretext for NATO response. Turkey won't even allow Americans to use its bases to bomb Iran. If the government allows this, it won't survive.

ofcourse, the US alone can crush iran, any other ally would just be icing on top of the cake.

the US doesnt really need any help.



Edited by Iranian41ife
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Apr-2006 at 09:29
Originally posted by Iranian41ife

ofcourse, the US alone can crush iran, any other ally would just be icing on top of the cake.

the US doesnt really need any help.


I hope you typed that wrong. No way, the USA cannot crush Iran. It can only bomb the crap out of it. thats a big difference. Hitler bombed the crap out of england for a while but did not defeat or crush it. Take heart. You can only crush Iran when you have crushed its people, which bombing alone cannot do. I dont think iranians will flinch enough to give the USA any hope even when it starts bombing them.



Edited by Leonidas
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Posts: 1832 		  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Apr-2006 at 10:38

i meant militarily.....
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Apr-2006 at 11:08
My bad, in a convential sense that should be true.

Edited by Leonidas
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