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Ishkhan
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Topic: The lost Muslims of Yerevan Posted: 29-Apr-2006 at 17:41 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
So what in your opinion was the number of Muslim residents in Yerevan province before the Russian agression? |
The Muslim presence, like the Christian presence was small, since Yerevan was just a village back then. Alexandropol, Baku and Tiflis were the major Transcaucasian cities.
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 29-Apr-2006 at 18:19 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
You can clearly see the instrumental role Armenians played in the
Russian expansion into the region. It was a century marked by defeat
after defeat for the Muslims forces.
Hundreds of thousands of muslims were displaced and flocking towards
the lands that were still under Muslim control. The distrust against
the Armenians was rising. |
Armenians
were subjected to Ottoman and Russian rule, and had to follow the
orders of their respective empires regardless of what they really
wanted to do. Plus, what you mentioned are just military campaigns, not an expulsion of Muslims from the Caucasus.
Originally posted by bg_turk
Russians were nothing but expansionist agressors following their
imperialist interests. |
Um, what do you call the Turkish and Persian states during this time? Ottomans,
an empire, were not expansionist aggressors, but stateless Armenia was
responsible for what happened to all the Muslims in the Caucasus,
right? (not to mention on the OTHER SIDE of the Caucasus mtns).
In August the Persians, led by Prince Abbas Mirza, arrived at the
plains of Yerevan in an attempt to force the Russians to end their
siege, but were defeated in battle near the city of Astarah. Finally,
on October 2, the garrison of Yerevan, consisting of 4,000 men and 50
canons, surrendered. Volunteer Armenian infantrymen and
cavalrymen participated during the entire campaign and fought side by
side with the Russian soldiers. |
The battle took place in Armenia, of course there are going to be
a group of rebels who were ready to join anyone who would help them
overthrow Persian occupation. I don't see how this, or any of the other
instances you mentioned, constitutes as Armenian aggression. The fact
that there are SOME Armenian volunteers for the Russian army just means
Armenia is a country just like any other, with a small group of rebels
who will join any invader to overthrow their current rulers.
You're turning an economic issue into a religious and ethnic one.
Many of the Armenians who wanted to overthrow Muslim rule were sick of
paying
excessive taxes for being non-Muslims in an Islamic empire. Under the
Russians this ridiculous tax didn't exist. God knows how many
financially poor Armenians became Muslims during this time because of
this stupid "Islamic" law.
Also, Armenians have been politically divided for millenia. For
every Armenian who wanted to overthrow Muslim rule, there were
many more Armenians who wanted to stay under their current rulers, since
many
Armenians in both Persian and Turkish empires were economically very
successful for centuries. This doesn't mean there weren't any poor
Armenians, but we don't know much about them, since many of them
converted to Islam and disappeared from the Armenian community
completely.
Edited by ArmenianSurvival
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Artaxiad
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Posted: 29-Apr-2006 at 18:27 |
There may have been numerous Turks in the Russian province of Yerevan (roughly corresponding to the modern day Republic of Armenia). That doesn't mean anything, though. In the Russian archives, it is said that in the early 1820s, Armenians formed a majority in Tiflis. That doesn't mean anything either because we know that Tiflis isn't part of Armenia.
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Bulldog
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Posted: 19-May-2006 at 09:17 |
This is know secret, the Turkic rulers governed the area for over 1000 years and Armenians were a minority population in the provinces.
Yes more double standards and hypocrisy, if this had been done by the other side it would have been called genocide however, when its done by Armenia its a laughing matter and cause for celebration.
This is the prime reason I stopped being duped by the Armenian thesis, from a Non-Turk/Non-Armenian viewpoint it was clearly a war both side's suffered claiming a systematic genocide occured as response to war-time defeat is shamefull and ridiculous.
Hundreds of thousands of Brittish troops were killed by Turks fighting in WW1, just because we lost that particular part of the war it doesn't give me any right what-so-ever to then later claim that the only reason we lost is because the Turks miraculously comitted a genocide against us.
Nothing of the sort, face it, these Turks were very brave and died protecting their homelands ie they were on the defensive fighting against the Brittish, French, Russians 3 super powers and then the Greeks and Armenians, now to battle against all at the same time take's real courage and heroism so I'm sorry but these guys deserve respect for this.
Its like German's blaming us for defending Britain and fighting for our homeland in the war, are we meant to feel sorry for the Germans who decided Britain would be a nice extenstion of their land? PLEASE.........
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mamikon
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Posted: 19-May-2006 at 15:01 |
"This is know secret, the Turkic rulers governed the area for over 1000 years and Armenians were a minority population in the provinces."
which 1000 years were these?
with regards to the rest of article.
Even though I would love to go in detail about the Genocide, I cant because of the forum rules...but I see the rules don't apply to you.
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Bulldog
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Posted: 19-May-2006 at 15:06 |
So who ruled in the region for past 1000 years huh? or is this an Armenian version of history which we never got to hear
Everyone's heard your thesis for 90 years, were still not convinced, now it would be good if we could hear the Turkish thesis and argument which has been supressed in the West.
I only found out a few years ago and from an objective viewpoint its very clear about what happened ie what you claim happened the G word canot be applied, ofcourse as your an Armenian you'll refuse to accept this till the cows come home but that's your problem, deal with it.
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Albert Pine
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mamikon
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Posted: 19-May-2006 at 17:23 |
again...I am not going to discuss the genocide, because its against the forum rules.
And once again, your post is noting but opinions.
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Bulldog
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Posted: 20-May-2006 at 10:56 |
Its all it ever is "opinions" and their's so many and not many hardcore facts so................
About the main topic, where did all these people of Yerevan go? there seems to have been a very large population, will there be any move's towards a re-location to rebuild friendship and ties?
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 20-May-2006 at 19:01 |
Originally posted by Bulldog
This is know secret, the Turkic rulers governed the area for over 1000
years and Armenians were a minority population in the provinces. |
Also, Turks didn't rule eastern Armenia for a significant period
of time (which is what comprises the modern Republic of Armenia).
Originally posted by Bulldog
About the main topic, where did all these people of Yerevan go? there
seems to have been a very large population, will there be any move's
towards a re-location to rebuild friendship and ties? |
The Azeris fled Armenia during the 1988-1994 conflict with
Azerbaijan (similar numbers of Armenians left Azerbaijan prior to the
conflict because of government pogroms, which is what started the
conflict).
Also, Yerevan prior to Soviet rule was a town
of tens of thousands. It wasn't even industrialized prior to Soviet
occupation. Hardly a major city even for its time.
Edited by ArmenianSurvival - 20-May-2006 at 19:02
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bg_turk
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Posted: 20-May-2006 at 19:19 |
Survival,
can you please provide a source for your map? and which year it is? boundaries which it shows on the Balkans are wrong - in 1915 I believe Western Thrace was Bulgarian, and there were a few Armenians in Dedeagac too whcih is not shown on the map (I know that from a BulgaroArmenian refugee who was deported in the population exchange between Greece and Bulgaria). Western Thrace was not Greek until after the end of WW1.
Also I think the only population counts of the time were those of the Ottomans and as far as I know they divided the people into Muslims and Non-muslims and usually counted families rather than individuals, since that was the only information needed for the tax collection purpose.
Is that map based on such a census? If so how does it distinguish between Armenian and the other christians in the region - Assyrians and Pontians?
If it is just some kind of a "projection" I would say it is highly uncertain, especially since it comes from a French source (judging from the writing) since during WW1 the French were at war with the Ottomans and they had an interest to carve out an Armenian state from the empire.
I will try to dig out more sources on the ottoman population data for the Erivan province and Eastern Turkey.
Edited by bg_turk - 20-May-2006 at 19:36
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bg_turk
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Posted: 20-May-2006 at 19:41 |
Also if you compare with your previous map which shows the distribution of the Armenians before the Azeri-Armenian war, you will see that areas in Georgia and Azerbaijan which are shown with Armenian majority on this one are not shown as such on the previous one - notably the region to the North-West of Nagorno-Karabakh and the region around Akhaltska - unless Georgia and Azerbaijan also performed ethnic cleansing prior to the collapse of the Soviets I do not know how would you explain this discrepancy? Wouldn't you expect actually the areas populated by armenians after 1920 to increase, and not decrease as your maps show, since quite a few Armenians were expelled from the West and had to settle in territories under Russian control?
Edited by bg_turk - 20-May-2006 at 19:42
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 21-May-2006 at 00:52 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
Survival,
can you please provide a source for your map? and which year it
is? boundaries which it shows on the Balkans are wrong - in 1915 I
believe Western Thrace was Bulgarian, and there were a few Armenians in
Dedeagac too whcih is not shown on the map (I know that from a
BulgaroArmenian refugee who was deported in the population exchange
between Greece and Bulgaria). Western Thrace was not Greek until after
the end of WW1. |
I actually got the source from one of your posts (it was a map of
the Treaty of Sevres). Here is the bibliography for the information on
the site (it doesn't specify what that particular map is based on):
http://www.imprescriptible.fr/bibliographie2.htm
Originally posted by bg_turk
Also if you compare with your previous map which shows the distribution
of the Armenians before the Azeri-Armenian war, you will see that areas
in Georgia and Azerbaijan which are shown with Armenian majority on
this one are not shown as such on the previous one - notably the region
to the North-West of Nagorno-Karabakh and the region around Akhaltska -
unless Georgia and Azerbaijan also performed ethnic cleansing prior to
the collapse of the Soviets I do not know how would you explain this
discrepancy? Wouldn't you expect actually the areas populated by
armenians after 1920 to increase, and not decrease as your maps
show, since quite a few Armenians were expelled from the West and had
to settle in territories under Russian control? |
The Ottoman army marched all the way to Baku. They killed
Armenians in Baku and many parts of Azerbaijan, and eradicated the
Armenian population of Nakhichevan (which is precisely why there are 0
Armenians remaining in Nakhichevan today, even though it was not part of the Ottoman Empire). The Ottoman army even
penetrated Persia, killing the Armenians around Lake Urmia, and also
Chaldean Christians.
Also another thing that might be throwing you off is that the map
doesn't show population density. The city of Yerevan, in the period
that the map shows, was a town of tens of thousands (with an absolute
Armenian majority). Under Soviet rule it became industrialized and it
is now a city of over 1 million people (with an absolute Armenian
majority...so it would look the same on the map when in actuality there
was a huge change in population). Also if you look closely many
Georgian urban centers have relative or absolute Armenian majorities.
Many of them went to Yerevan after the first Armenian republic was
established (1918), and after the Soviets took over, they moved Armenians from
many parts of the USSR back to Armenia. So in a nutshell part of the
Armenian population in Azerbaijan shown on this map were either killed
or driven out by the Ottoman army, and the ones in Georgia were moved
to Armenia by the Soviets after 1920.
Edited by ArmenianSurvival - 21-May-2006 at 00:56
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Bashibozuk
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Posted: 21-May-2006 at 06:49 |
Armenians were never a majority in Northeastern Cilicia (Kozan/Sis, Kadirli, Dortyol) and never a majority in Marash (today Kahraman Marash, gifted the title "hero" after Turkish War of Independence). Actually, Kahramanmarash was one of the most nationalistic cities of Turkey ever, the local liberation gangs, just by themselves, kicked the French out. Artvin (in the northeast) was also not mainly inhabited by Armenians.
killing the Armenians around Lake Urmia, and also Chaldean Christians. |
Chaldeans weren't slaughtered by Ottomans.
Edited by Bashibozuk - 07-Jul-2006 at 04:29
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Hastayim, derdime verem diyorlar,
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bg_turk
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Posted: 21-May-2006 at 15:16 |
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
The Ottoman army marched all the way to Baku. |
Really? I thought the Ottoman army was halted at Yerevan?
According to armenica.org
During the months of September and October the Armenian army in the north held off the advance of the Turks. On October 14, the Armenian army in Novoslibili began a counteroffensive which would determine the outcome of the war. After an initial victory, the Armenian army could no longer immobilise the progress of the enemy. Over the following days, the Turkish army approached Kars and on October 30, following a swift manoeuvre of its right flank, took the fortress of the city. The remaining Armenian forces in the north retreated towards Alexandrapol. The Turks entered the city on November 7 and continued their advance towards Gharakilisa (Vanadzor). The eighth regiment of the Armenian army put up a heroic defence in the mountainous passage at Jarjour, the last glimmer of Armenian heroism along with the victorious defence of southern Yerevan, in the midst of the darkness of war in 1920, which rampaged for five years.
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 21-May-2006 at 15:49 |
With his credibility
battered at home Enver nevertheless recovered ground with the defeat of the
Allied expedition to the
Dardanelles in 1915-16. Russia's withdrawal
from the war, and the February Revolution of 1917, presented Enver with the
opportunity to lead the Ottoman forces that occupied Baku in 1918. |
http://www.firstworldwar.com/bio/enver.htm
In 1916 the fighting between Russian and Ottoman forces to the north of the country had spilt
down into Iran; Russia gained the advantage until most of her armies collapsed in the wake of the Russian Revolution of 1917. This left the Caucasus unprotected, and the Caucasian and Persian civilians starving after years of war
and deprivation. |
http://www.answers.com/topic/persia
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mamikon
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Posted: 21-May-2006 at 15:49 |
"
Armenians were never a majority in Northeastern Cilicia"
Even when there was an Armenian Kingdom in Cilicia?
" Let's just think about it before claiming this, who'd have the purpose to erase Assyrians, and more importantly, why?"
What was the purpose of killing Jews in Nazi Germany?
"Really? I thought the Ottoman army was halted at Yerevan?"
Nope, they went through Georgia, reached Baku. They also entered
Karabakh and northern Iran. The army was headed by Enver Pasha (once
again) and was called the Army of Islam.
Only one of the Ottoman regiments that headed straight for Yereven were halted...
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bg_turk
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Posted: 21-May-2006 at 17:56 |
So Enver occupied Baku in 1918?
This was just around the time when the Russian advance into Eastern Turkey had halted and major cities such as Van, Erzurum, Erzinjan,Trabzon, Kars etc, were under Armenian control. It is really surprising that Enver was all the way to Baku at a time when half of Anatolia was under Armenian control.
What happened to Enver's units then? Did he try to advance on Armenian units from the East?
Edited by bg_turk - 21-May-2006 at 17:57
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 21-May-2006 at 18:46 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
So Enver occupied Baku in 1918? This was just around the time when the Russian advance into Eastern
Turkey had halted... |
In 1918 the Russian army was long gone, retreated all the way back
into Russia in 1917 because of the Russian Revolution. Thats how Enver
was able to march to Baku.
Originally posted by bg_turk
...and major cities such as Van, Erzurum,
Erzinjan,Trabzon, Kars etc, were under Armenian control. It is really
surprising that Enver was all the way to Baku at a time when half
of Anatolia was under Armenian control. |
It is more surprising how half of Anatolia could be under
Armenian control when in 1918 there were no Armenians there and the
Russian army was nowhere in sight for a good year by then.
Originally posted by bg_turk
What happened to Enver's units then? Did he try to
advance on Armenian units from the East? |
He went to Central Asia and fought in wars there to get the
central Asian Turkic republics their independence. He even died in a
battle which took place in Central Asia.
Edited by ArmenianSurvival - 21-May-2006 at 18:48
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bg_turk
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Posted: 21-May-2006 at 19:08 |
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
It is more surprising how half of Anatolia could be under Armenian control when in 1918 there were no Armenians there and the Russian army was nowhere in sight for a good year by then. |
Please Survival stop denying that! Eastern Turkey was under Armenian control until the early months of 1918. The map below shows how far the Russians had reached before they had haulted, when they left due to the Bolshevik Revolution. Armenians were in control of the territories for 2 whole years between 1916-1918.
Armenian forced mounted a stiff defense of the territories but left alone they were defeated by Ottoman forces , and by March the Ottoman Army had captured Trebizond, Erzurum, Kars, Van and Batumi. Enver reached Baku on September 1918, but he had never entered Yerevan because Armenian forces defeated him at Sarikamish.
Edited by bg_turk - 21-May-2006 at 19:11
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 21-May-2006 at 19:55 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
Please Survival stop denying that! Eastern Turkey was under Armenian
control until the early months of 1918. The map below shows how far
the Russians had reached before they had haulted, when they left due to
the Bolshevik Revolution. Armenians were in control of the territories
for 2 whole years between 1916-1918. Armenian forced mounted a stiff defense of the territories but left
alone they were defeated by Ottoman forces , and by March the Ottoman
Army had captured Trebizond, Erzurum, Kars, Van and Batumi. |
It was under Russian control. There was no independent Armenia
until the First Republic of Armenia was established in 1918
(territories of the Russian province of Erivan, created only due to the Russian retreat and a failed invasion of Yerevan by Enver's troops).
While the Russians were there, there was no independent-anything. It
was all part of the Russian Empire. It was only after the Russian army
left in 1917 that a power vaccuum was created in the region, with the
remaining Armenian deportees left in the middle, forced to take up
whatever arms they could find, in order to hold off Ottoman troops whom
they knew were out to "deport" them. The Ottomans used these acts of
self-defense (as well as other
instances) as propaganda to say "look, the Armenians are resisting our
rule" (just like how the Nazis called the Warsaw ghetto uprisings
"revolts"). The Armenians who held off the Ottomans near Yerevan in
1918 barely carried the day. It was only after this victory in 1918
that an independent Armenia was created out of the former Russian
province of Erivan (which, as I said, Enver tried to take but failed).
Originally posted by bg_turk
Enver reached Baku on September 1918, but he had never
entered Yerevan because Armenian forces defeated him at Sarikamish.
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He sent a force to take Yerevan, but they were defeated (barely).
Also, I have only heard the Young Turks say that the Armenians were to
blame for their defeat at Sarikamish. They used this as justification
to carry out their plans for deportation. In reality the Ottomans lost
at Sarikamish because of the Russian army (which had Armenian units from Russian Armenia in
it, but if we're using this logic, we might as well blame the Ukranians
for the Ottoman defeat at Sarikamish). After the Russians left I don't
think Enver feared the Armenians so much, especially when he attacked
them everywhere else, and then went all the way to Central Asia to
fight.
Edited by ArmenianSurvival - 21-May-2006 at 19:59
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