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The lost Muslims of Yerevan

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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The lost Muslims of Yerevan
    Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 07:34

We all know how Armenians have been forced away from Eastern Turkey, and the region today is virtually free of Armenians, i.e. by the modern definition it is ethnically cleansed.

What is little known in the West is that the Turks and Tatars of the terriories of modern Armenia have met a similar faith.

Yerevan, the capital of modern Armenia, was once a thriving muslim city with an overwhelming muslimg majority until the year 1914. Some 260,000 Turko-Tatars lives in Yerevan around 1830. By 1921 the muslim population had dwindled to 89,000 people. Today the town is virtually free of Muslims, but the traces of the lost community can still be found if one looks carefully enough:

For instance I came accross an interesting blog:

http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2005/12/18/living-in-a-mosque/

Kond is all that is left of old Yerevan from the time in the 19th Century when the Armenian capital was a predominently Moslem village. Even the local secondary school still displays old photographs of minarets towering over the district, and a careful search can still yield discoveries testifying to Konds Islamic past.

Indeed, one of the mosques still stands, albeit stripped of its minarets. Since the 1920s, when the last Azerbaijani Moslems left Kond, it has been used for housing by [Christian] Armenian families that still live there, inhabiting the rooms that surround the mosques inner courtyard.

Another landmark testifying to Yerevan's islamic past is the only remaining mosque today - the Blue Mosque:

 



Edited by bg_turk
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  Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 07:37
well... i think Bg Turk your dream is a turkish state from Bulgaria to Armenia,
so the poor millions of Turks that expelled can go back home
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  Quote Bashibozuk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 11:13

so the poor millions of Turks that expelled can go back home

When Turks are deported, this means "liberation", but when Turks deport the others, that means "genocide". This mentality is the cause of the ideology which still continues shaping western point of view. This is rewriting history, or simply taking out the parts which conflict your myths, or your norms of neighborship.

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Asli'mi el almis, harem diyorlar.
Hastayim, derdime verem diyorlar,
Marasli Seyhoglu Satilmis'im ben.
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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 12:15
     You forgot to mention the 150-200,000 Azeris who fled Armenia because of the Karabagh conflict (they were replaced by a similar number of Armenians who fled from Azerbaijan just prior to the conflict).

     I'm curious, where did you get those population figures? I'm not denying what you're saying about Muslims being there, but personally the only people I've heard who say that 20th century-Yervan was majority Muslim are Azeri nationalists who openly use the term "Greater Azerbaijan" (which now includes the Republic of Azerbaijan, northern Iran, and the entire Republic of Armenia ).
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 13:10

Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

     You forgot to mention the 150-200,000 Azeris who fled Armenia because of the Karabagh conflict (they were replaced by a similar number of Armenians who fled from Azerbaijan just prior to the conflict).

Which part of Armenia did the Azerbaijanis live before the conflict?

The total number of Azeri refugees, which apart from those from Armenia, also includes those from NK and surrounding territory is around a million.


 I'm curious, where did you get those population figures? I'm not denying what you're saying about Muslims being there,

Kemal Karpat, Justin McCarthy - I think they base their numbers on the Ottoman census.

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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 18:17
Originally posted by bg_turk

Which part of Armenia did the Azerbaijanis live before the conflict?


     Here are two ethnic maps, one prior to the conflict and one after. I'm assuming one is prior to the conflict because it actually shows Azeris inhabiting Armenia and Armenians inhabiting Azerbaijan. Both minorities fled.







     The maps don't show it but substantial Armenian communities in Baku were completely displaced, and I have to assume that there were some Azeris living in Yerevan that are no longer there. But you can generally see how both countries "exchanged" their populations.


Originally posted by bg_turk

The total number of Azeri refugees, which apart from those from Armenia, also includes those from NK and surrounding territory is around a million.


     The 1 million Azeri refugee estimate is by Azerbaijan's government. The reality is there were 1 million refugees on BOTH sides. The UN put the Azeri refugees at around 700-750,000, while there were over 350,000 Armenian refugees. Most of the Azeri refugees were living in the lands between Karabagh and the Republic of Armenia, and these lands in between were occupied so that Karabagh is not isolated by being surrounded by Azerbaijan (since they would have closed all the borders). I don't know whether they fled due to what they had heard about the Armenian forces, but there were no civilian deaths in these areas (only in Khojaly, which is inside Karabagh itself).


Originally posted by bg_turk

Kemal Karpat, Justin McCarthy - I think they base their numbers on the Ottoman census.


     Don't blame me if I don't trust the Ottoman census, which also claimed a maximum of 600,000 Armenians died during WW1. Their claims have been subsequently disproven by nearly every single academic study. It doesn't mean what you're saying is automatically wrong, but theres definitely doubt surrounding anything those sources mention.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

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  Quote Artaxiad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 18:39
It's true that there were a lot of Muslims in Yerevan. However, there weren't 260,000 Turks/Tatars there, because it was just a small town back then. Maybe you mean that there were 260,000 Muslims in the Russian Empire's province of Erevan.

Don't forget that the Russian province of Erevan also included Nakhichevan, which is now a part of Azerbaijan.

Also, note that Turks weren't the only Muslims in the province of Erevan. There were Kurds too, and others.

Yerevan in 1796:


Edited by Artaxiad
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 20:49

Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival


     Don't blame me if I don't trust the Ottoman census, which also claimed a maximum of 600,000 Armenians died during WW1. Their claims have been subsequently disproven by nearly every single academic study. It doesn't mean what you're saying is automatically wrong, but theres definitely doubt surrounding anything those sources mention.

Thanks for the map.

Concerning the figures of muslim inhabitants, I do not know on what basis you dispute the results of the Ottoman census, do you have more reliable figures?

I believe the Ottoman census is the primary source for the number of muslims. Unless you claim there was doublecounting I do not see how it is an overestimate. If anythink it is an underestimate since it is possible some muslims were simply not on the official record.

Also the ottoman census of armenians is a lower bound, not an upper bound as you claim. many armenians were simply not counted, and usually only the head of the family was included.

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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 20:51

Originally posted by Artaxiad

It's true that there were a lot of Muslims in Yerevan. However, there weren't 260,000 Turks/Tatars there, because it was just a small town back then. Maybe you mean that there were 260,000 Muslims in the Russian Empire's province of Erevan.

Yes, probably you are right.



Don't forget that the Russian province of Erevan also included Nakhichevan, which is now a part of Azerbaijan.

Also, note that Turks weren't the only Muslims in the province of Erevan. There were Kurds too, and others.

Yerevan in 1796:

A nice picture.

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  Quote Artaxiad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 21:25
Around 50,000 Kurds still exist in Armenia, and they enjoy rights as Kurdish citizens of the country...
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 21:29

Kurds of the Yezidi sect - they are not muslims.

Armenia is virtually free of muslims nowadays. Who uses that mosque in Yerevan? Do you know?

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  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 01:21
Iranians and Indians

with regards to the Ottoman Archives...Yerevan belonged to Russia...not the Ottoman Empire, and if the Ottomans couldnt get  a decent count in their own country, how are they going to get one in another?


Edited by mamikon
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 09:39

sorry, the thing about the ottoman census was my own speculation. You are right Yerevan was occupied by the Russians in 1828. I do not know what Prof. Karpat bases his estimates upon (maybe a previous census, just before the occupation?), but in any case if you believe the figures are inaccurate, I would be interested to hear what the correct number of muslims in the province was according to you?

 

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  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 11:37
How would I know what the number is...but because I dont know, doesn't make  Karpat's  numbers correct.

Just wondering, why have you not noticed, while reading the book (I am assuming you have read a book by Karpat or McCarthy before posting, can I know what book it was btw?) that Yerevan was not an Ottoman province?

no offense, bg_Turk, that whatever you are trying to prove, in most of your threads you say "Ottoman archives this and Ottoman archives that"...I am starting to wonder if you really have seen what the Ottoman Archives say or you are just saying that...
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 12:06

I know that Yerevan was occupied by Russia by the beginning of the 20th century. I simply did not know what the exact date was.

By the way I took the numbers from the sources that I pasted before:

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10040&am p;PN=3

Concerning the Ottoman archives it is very easy to check what they say  as long as you speak turkish. Many documents pertaining to the Russian agression during and after 1915 can be accessed online at

http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/

Some of them have english translations too.

 

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  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2006 at 23:35
I dont understand: why do you call it russian agression? Ottoman Empire declared war, and Ottoman Empire attacked. How is it that the Russians were the agressors?

and that review I have seen before...oh yeah, thats the book that says Armenian, Greeks and Russians killed 6,000,000 Turks...the clause of mutual genocide...
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  Quote Ishkhan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2006 at 00:56
Originally posted by bg_turk

Kurds of the Yezidi sect - they are not muslims.

Armenia is virtually free of muslims nowadays. Who uses that mosque in Yerevan? Do you know?


Nobody uses the Gk-Jami or Blue Mosque of Yerevan. It was actually quite dilapidated and downtrodden until the Iranian government supplied Armenia with funds to renovate it. Today, it serves as a museum.
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2006 at 11:25

Originally posted by mamikon

...oh yeah, thats the book that says Armenian, Greeks and Russians killed 6,000,000 Turks...the clause of mutual genocide...

It is 5.5 million and it is not the number killed, but also inclues those that have died from disease and starvation as a result of the forced migration from the lost provinces of the ottoman empire. But anyway that is not relevant to the topic.

So what in your opinion was the number of Muslim residents in Yerevan province before the Russian agression?



Edited by bg_turk
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2006 at 12:01

Originally posted by mamikon

I dont understand: why do you call it russian agression? Ottoman Empire declared war, and Ottoman Empire attacked. How is it that the Russians were the agressors?

Concerning the period under consideration, i.e. the fall of Yerevan - Russians were nothing but expansionist agressors following their imperialist interests.

During the fall of Yerevan the agression was not against the Ottoman Empire, but against Persia.

Here, from an Armenian source:

These provinces were conquered by the Russians during the fourth Russian-Persian war, between 1826 and 1827. This war was initiated by the rapid advance of the indefatigable Prince Abbas Mirzas forces, numbering around 35,000 men, who made a lightning attack on the cities of Gyumri (Alexandrapol) and Ganja (Elisavetpol). These two cities fell almost immediately into the hands of the Persian forces. The wind of danger blew towards Tbilisi and the city was expected to fall at any moment. But the tables were turned after six weeks of intensive and courageous defence of the fortress in -Shushi, where the Armenians in the city, together with the garrison of the city which was limited to only 350 men under the leadership of colonel Reout, withstood the Persian army. 17 The resistance was reinforced with the brilliant victory in September 2, 1826, in Shamkhor, masterminded by General Madatian. This Armenian general defeated the 10,000 strong Persian army with his 2,000 men and retook the city of Ganja. 20

 Then, General Paskevitch, who had been appointed chief commander of the Russian army instead of old Yermolov, and his 8,000 men joined the Armenian forces of Madatian. The new commander attacked the forces of Yerevan and defeated them in the vicinity of Ganja.

One year later, in 1827, Paskevitch occupied the city of Etchmiadzin and besieged Yerevan. He subsequently marched towards Nakhichevan and took the province in June. In August the Persians, led by Prince Abbas Mirza, arrived at the plains of Yerevan in an attempt to force the Russians to end their siege, but were defeated in battle near the city of Astarah. Finally, on October 2, the garrison of Yerevan, consisting of 4,000 men and 50 canons, surrendered. Volunteer Armenian infantrymen and cavalrymen participated during the entire campaign and fought side by side with the Russian soldiers. 22

and it continues

The Russian conquests in the Caucasus and Eastern Armenia from Persia brought her in direct contact with the Ottoman Empire in Asia.

The Bosporus still attracted Russian attention in regard to the Orient, and Armenia was naturally part of this concern. From this moment on an Armenian Question was created between Russia and the Ottoman Empire, a question which for a long time had remained hidden and unclear, but which eventually was forced into the light. 26

In addition, the new border between Russia and the Ottoman Empire which ran through Armenia, resulted in the 19th century in a war in Armenia alongside the chief Russian-Ottoman war in the Balkans and Crimea.

The first Russian-Ottoman war during the 19th century (not taking into account the war between 1808 and 1812) was ignited between 1828 and 1829. The basis for this war was the Russian involvement in the Greek revolt against the sultan. This war finished in a Russian victory in the Balkans which forced the sultan to sign a peace treaty and officially recognize an independent Greece, and was followed by yet another brilliant coup in Armenia where Marshal Paskevitch led the Caucasian forces, in which the Armenian units participated, to victory. 27

The Russian chief commander, who led an army of 25,000 men (leaving behind 15,000 men in the Caucasus for the defence against an eventual Persian assault), started from Gyumri and took the city of Kars. He then went north and conquered the cities of Akhaltsikh and Ardahan.

During the Crimea War (1855-1856) Armenia once again became the second stage of war between Russia and the Ottoman Empire. A Russian army of 6 000 men, led by the Armenian General Behboudian, achieved its first victory on November 14, 1853, by the Arpa River, near Gyumri, crushing the 12 000 strong Turkish army which was led by Ahmed Pasha.

Through a circling offensive of his left flank, led by Lazarian, he surrounded the right flank of Mokhtar Pasha and defeated it by the shores of Arpa River. THus Loris Melikian was able to rapidly retake the Kars fortress, which fell during the night of November 18 to the Russian attack. For this he received the St Georges Cross from the Russian tsar and the Order of Merit from the German Kaiser Wilhelm I. The battle ended with the conquest of Erzurum.

As a result of the negotiations in San Stefano and Berlin, Russia received Kars, Ardahan and Batum among its conquests in the Ottoman Empire

Reference:

http://www.armenica.org/cgi-bin/history/en/getHistory.cgi?1= 999=224=999==1=3=A

You can clearly see the instrumental role Armenians played in the Russian expansion into the region. It was a century marked by defeat after defeat for the Muslims forces.

Hundreds of thousands of muslims were displaced and flocking towards the lands that were still under Muslim control. The distrust against the Armenians was rising.

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  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2006 at 16:19
thats 1827...we  are talking about Russian agression of WWI arent we?

Originally posted by bg_turk


Concerning the Ottoman archives it is very easy to check what they say  as long as you speak turkish. Many documents pertaining to the Russian agression during and after 1915 can be accessed online at


the Russian expansion was not Armenia vs. Ottoman Empire, or Armenia vs. Persia....It was Russia against both of them...you see Russian gains in the Balkans, Georgia, Crimea....no Armenians there...

Russian expansion absolutely has nothing to do with Armenia...Armenians were just another subjects of Russia empire...not better than any other subjects.

And did you expect the 6000 Armenians fight with the Ottoman side? they were Eastern Armenians...why would they help the Ottomans? They were Russian subjects.

While Armenians in the western Armenia were not allowed to help the Ottoman Empire, since they were not allowed to join the Army...



Edited by mamikon
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