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bg_turk
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Topic: The lost Muslims of Yerevan Posted: 29-Apr-2006 at 11:25 |
Originally posted by mamikon
...oh yeah, thats the book that says Armenian, Greeks and Russians killed 6,000,000 Turks...the clause of mutual genocide...
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It is 5.5 million and it is not the number killed, but also inclues those that have died from disease and starvation as a result of the forced migration from the lost provinces of the ottoman empire. But anyway that is not relevant to the topic.
So what in your opinion was the number of Muslim residents in Yerevan province before the Russian agression?
Edited by bg_turk
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Ishkhan
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Posted: 29-Apr-2006 at 00:56 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
Kurds of the Yezidi sect - they are not muslims.
Armenia is virtually free of muslims nowadays. Who uses that mosque in Yerevan? Do you know? |
Nobody uses the Gk-Jami or Blue Mosque of Yerevan. It was actually quite dilapidated and downtrodden until the Iranian government supplied Armenia with funds to renovate it. Today, it serves as a museum.
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mamikon
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Posted: 28-Apr-2006 at 23:35 |
I dont understand: why do you call it russian agression? Ottoman Empire
declared war, and Ottoman Empire attacked. How is it that the Russians
were the agressors?
and that review I have seen before...oh yeah, thats the book that says
Armenian, Greeks and Russians killed 6,000,000 Turks...the clause of
mutual genocide...
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bg_turk
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Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 12:06 |
I know that Yerevan was occupied by Russia by the beginning of the 20th century. I simply did not know what the exact date was.
By the way I took the numbers from the sources that I pasted before:
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10040&am p;PN=3
Concerning the Ottoman archives it is very easy to check what they say as long as you speak turkish. Many documents pertaining to the Russian agression during and after 1915 can be accessed online at
http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/
Some of them have english translations too.
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mamikon
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Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 11:37 |
How would I know what the number is...but because I dont know, doesn't make Karpat's numbers correct.
Just wondering, why have you not noticed, while reading the book (I am
assuming you have read a book by Karpat or McCarthy before posting, can
I know what book it was btw?) that Yerevan was not an Ottoman province?
no offense, bg_Turk, that whatever you are trying to prove, in most of
your threads you say "Ottoman archives this and Ottoman archives
that"...I am starting to wonder if you really have seen what the
Ottoman Archives say or you are just saying that...
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bg_turk
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Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 09:39 |
sorry, the thing about the ottoman census was my own speculation. You are right Yerevan was occupied by the Russians in 1828. I do not know what Prof. Karpat bases his estimates upon (maybe a previous census, just before the occupation?), but in any case if you believe the figures are inaccurate, I would be interested to hear what the correct number of muslims in the province was according to you?
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mamikon
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Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 01:21 |
Iranians and Indians
with regards to the Ottoman Archives...Yerevan belonged to Russia...not
the Ottoman Empire, and if the Ottomans couldnt get a decent
count in their own country, how are they going to get one in another?
Edited by mamikon
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bg_turk
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Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 21:29 |
Kurds of the Yezidi sect - they are not muslims.
Armenia is virtually free of muslims nowadays. Who uses that mosque in Yerevan? Do you know?
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Artaxiad
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Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 21:25 |
Around 50,000 Kurds still exist in Armenia, and they enjoy rights as Kurdish citizens of the country...
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bg_turk
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Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 20:51 |
Originally posted by Artaxiad
It's true that there were a lot of Muslims in Yerevan. However, there weren't 260,000 Turks/Tatars there, because it was just a small town back then. Maybe you mean that there were 260,000 Muslims in the Russian Empire's province of Erevan.
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Yes, probably you are right.
Don't forget that the Russian province of Erevan also included Nakhichevan, which is now a part of Azerbaijan.
Also, note that Turks weren't the only Muslims in the province of Erevan. There were Kurds too, and others.
Yerevan in 1796:
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A nice picture.
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bg_turk
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Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 20:49 |
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
Don't blame me if I don't trust the Ottoman census, which also claimed a maximum of 600,000 Armenians died during WW1. Their claims have been subsequently disproven by nearly every single academic study. It doesn't mean what you're saying is automatically wrong, but theres definitely doubt surrounding anything those sources mention.
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Thanks for the map.
Concerning the figures of muslim inhabitants, I do not know on what basis you dispute the results of the Ottoman census, do you have more reliable figures?
I believe the Ottoman census is the primary source for the number of muslims. Unless you claim there was doublecounting I do not see how it is an overestimate. If anythink it is an underestimate since it is possible some muslims were simply not on the official record.
Also the ottoman census of armenians is a lower bound, not an upper bound as you claim. many armenians were simply not counted, and usually only the head of the family was included.
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Artaxiad
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Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 18:39 |
It's true that there were a lot of Muslims in Yerevan. However, there weren't 260,000 Turks/Tatars there, because it was just a small town back then. Maybe you mean that there were 260,000 Muslims in the Russian Empire's province of Erevan. Don't forget that the Russian province of Erevan also included Nakhichevan, which is now a part of Azerbaijan. Also, note that Turks weren't the only Muslims in the province of Erevan. There were Kurds too, and others. Yerevan in 1796:
Edited by Artaxiad
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 18:17 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
Which part of Armenia did the Azerbaijanis live before the conflict? |
Here are two ethnic maps, one prior to the
conflict and one after. I'm assuming one is prior to the conflict
because it actually shows Azeris inhabiting Armenia and Armenians
inhabiting Azerbaijan. Both minorities fled.
The maps don't show it but substantial
Armenian communities in Baku were completely displaced, and I have to
assume that there were some Azeris living in Yerevan that are no longer
there. But you can generally see how both countries "exchanged" their
populations.
Originally posted by bg_turk
The total number of Azeri refugees, which apart from those from
Armenia, also includes those from NK and surrounding territory is
around a million. |
The 1 million Azeri refugee estimate is by
Azerbaijan's government. The reality is there were 1 million refugees
on BOTH sides. The UN put the Azeri refugees at around 700-750,000,
while there were over 350,000 Armenian refugees. Most of the Azeri
refugees were living in the lands between Karabagh and the Republic of
Armenia, and these lands in between were occupied so that Karabagh is
not isolated by being surrounded by Azerbaijan (since they would have
closed all the borders). I don't know whether they fled due to what
they had heard about the Armenian forces, but there were no civilian
deaths in these areas (only in Khojaly, which is inside Karabagh
itself).
Originally posted by bg_turk
Kemal Karpat, Justin McCarthy - I think they base their numbers on the Ottoman census. |
Don't blame me if I don't trust the Ottoman
census, which also claimed a maximum of 600,000 Armenians died during
WW1. Their claims have been subsequently disproven by nearly every
single academic study. It doesn't mean what you're saying is
automatically wrong, but theres definitely doubt surrounding anything
those sources mention.
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance
Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։
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bg_turk
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Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 13:10 |
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
You forgot to mention the 150-200,000 Azeris who fled Armenia because of the Karabagh conflict (they were replaced by a similar number of Armenians who fled from Azerbaijan just prior to the conflict).
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Which part of Armenia did the Azerbaijanis live before the conflict?
The total number of Azeri refugees, which apart from those from Armenia, also includes those from NK and surrounding territory is around a million.
I'm curious, where did you get those population figures? I'm not denying what you're saying about Muslims being there,
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Kemal Karpat, Justin McCarthy - I think they base their numbers on the Ottoman census.
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 12:15 |
You forgot to mention the 150-200,000 Azeris who fled Armenia
because of the Karabagh conflict (they were replaced by a similar
number of Armenians who fled from Azerbaijan just prior to the conflict).
I'm curious, where did you get those
population figures? I'm not denying what you're saying about Muslims
being there, but personally the only people I've heard who say that
20th century-Yervan was majority Muslim are Azeri nationalists who
openly use the term "Greater Azerbaijan" (which now includes the
Republic of Azerbaijan, northern Iran, and the entire Republic of
Armenia ).
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance
Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։
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Bashibozuk
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Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 11:13 |
so the poor millions of Turks that expelled can go back home
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When Turks are deported, this means "liberation", but when Turks deport the others, that means "genocide". This mentality is the cause of the ideology which still continues shaping western point of view. This is rewriting history, or simply taking out the parts which conflict your myths, or your norms of neighborship.
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Garibim, namima Kerem diyorlar,
Asli'mi el almis, harem diyorlar.
Hastayim, derdime verem diyorlar,
Marasli Seyhoglu Satilmis'im ben.
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Digenis
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Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 07:37 |
well... i think Bg Turk your dream is a turkish state from Bulgaria to Armenia, so the poor millions of Turks that expelled can go back home
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bg_turk
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Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 07:34 |
We all know how Armenians have been forced away from Eastern Turkey, and the region today is virtually free of Armenians, i.e. by the modern definition it is ethnically cleansed.
What is little known in the West is that the Turks and Tatars of the terriories of modern Armenia have met a similar faith.
Yerevan, the capital of modern Armenia, was once a thriving muslim city with an overwhelming muslimg majority until the year 1914. Some 260,000 Turko-Tatars lives in Yerevan around 1830. By 1921 the muslim population had dwindled to 89,000 people. Today the town is virtually free of Muslims, but the traces of the lost community can still be found if one looks carefully enough:
For instance I came accross an interesting blog:
http://oneworld.blogsome.com/2005/12/18/living-in-a-mosque/
Kond is all that is left of old Yerevan from the time in the 19th Century when the Armenian capital was a predominently Moslem village. Even the local secondary school still displays old photographs of minarets towering over the district, and a careful search can still yield discoveries testifying to Konds Islamic past.
Indeed, one of the mosques still stands, albeit stripped of its minarets. Since the 1920s, when the last Azerbaijani Moslems left Kond, it has been used for housing by [Christian] Armenian families that still live there, inhabiting the rooms that surround the mosques inner courtyard.
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Another landmark testifying to Yerevan's islamic past is the only remaining mosque today - the Blue Mosque:
Edited by bg_turk
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