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The lost Muslims of Yerevan

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  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The lost Muslims of Yerevan
    Posted: 22-May-2006 at 19:02
thanks
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2006 at 18:26
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  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2006 at 18:03
"We are going in circles because of your unsatisfactory answers about what happened to the muslims in 1917 and why they failed to fill in the power vacuum if Armenians what were victims of Genocide were so weak. So far I have heard nothing but petty excuses for the massacres against the Muslims and about how Armenians were weak and unable to do anything like that, even though a great majority of Turks claim to the contrary."

you are so sure that Armenians somehow orchestrated Turkish Genocide that anything I say is unsatisfactory.

Just because the Russians got territory in the beginning of the war does not mean they killed every muslim, and this is your whole argument....that the presence of a Russian Army (with an Armenian contigent) means that Turks were genocided, thats just ridiculous. This is the same thing as saying that when the Greeks advanced in western Anatolia they also killed all the Turks (which you probably believe) So Greeks killed all the Turks in Western Anatolia, and Armenians killed all the Turks in Eastern Anatolia? So who the hell are the 80 million people living in Turkey?

And once again, no show no evidence to prove your claims, except from one book, which you have presented in every genoocide discussion you have been in AE.

by the way, if 500,000 Turks really were massacred why is it no westerners, arabs, Russians or anyone not Turkish has witnessed this? I mean Germans would have loved to report Russian atrocities against Turks wouldnt they? Or is everyone against Turks again...

And why do you keep saying Armenia this and Armenia that. Armenia wasnt a state until 1918, it was part of the Russian Empire.

No one is denying that there were massacres against Turks, but Genocide? this is nothing but blame a victim game...good luck convincing others with your argument.

And can I see the link where according to Churchill there were 160,000 Armenians in the Russian Army (please, please no Wiki)

I have a feeling you know that the Armenian Genocide really was Genocide, but the pre-requisite to you actually saying that is Armenians on this board saying that Armenians orchestrated a Turkish Genocide

Edited by mamikon - 22-May-2006 at 18:05
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2006 at 06:49
fair enough, but it is unnecessary because I have nothing more to say on this topic.
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2006 at 06:17
Note to the moderators: Plese do not lock this thread, since it is not a discussion of the Armenian Genocide but a discussion of the muslim casualties during the same time period so it is not part of the blacklisted topics.
 
If we dont discuss Armenians killed  by Turks, we  should not discuss Turk  killed by armenians too.No need to double standard. This topic should be locked or, blacklisted topic  should unban  too.
 
Also all  type of provocative topic  should be banned or unbanned.
 
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2006 at 05:44
Originally posted by mamikon

And 160,000 Armenians?
It is from the same Churchil quote.
 

This discussion is going in circles.
We are going in circles because of your unsatisfactory answers about what happened to the muslims in 1917 and why they failed to fill in the power vacuum if Armenians what were victims of Genocide were so weak. So far I have heard nothing but petty excuses for the massacres against the Muslims and about how Armenians were weak and unable to do anything like that, even though a great majority of Turks claim to the contrary.
 
I will say no more on the subject.
 
 
Kotumeyil,
 
thans for sharing your family story.


Edited by bg_turk - 22-May-2006 at 07:51
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  Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2006 at 03:51
What happened to the Muslims in the occupied region? I can't speak for everyone but at least my ancestors in Erzurum escaped from the Armenian gangs and took refuge to Yozgat in Central Anatolia. My grandfather tells that his elders could take nothing with them during the exile and had to eat barleys they found in horse sh*t. The father of my grandmom was an orphaned child, whose father was killed by Armenian gangs, etc. Not a happy story...  
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  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2006 at 00:39
"It wasn't "quickly" at all. The vacuum lasted for a whole year, and the region was under Armenian control for two yeas  (since 1916)- it was not until March 1918 that the region was reclaimed by the Ottoman forces."

The Russian Revolution (October Revolution) took place in October of 1917, and the Russian army started to withdraw. By the May of next year the Turkish army had recovered all the territory, were invading Eastern Armenia and had almost reached Baku.

"
1917 was quiet and there were by then too few muslims to disturb the "vacuum". Most of the Muslim were massacred earlier in 1916 when Russians and Armenians were victorius. There were 500,000 Russians + 160,000 Armenian soldiers - perfectly capable of killing as many civilians. Besides as in the case of the Armenians, the muslim death toll was not only due to massacres, but also due to disease and starvation during their exile and "evacuation"

you are just speaking hypothetically...just because the Russian Army  (with an Armenian contigent) pushed the Ottomans back it doesnt mean it killed off the whole muslim population of Eastern Anatolia. And 160,000 Armenians? so how did that number plump to 35,000 Armenians at the end of that year? I have no clue where you are getting your numbers from. Except for McCarthy and some Turkish historians there is no proof that the Russian army killed more than 500,000 Turkish civilians.

"
if there were no Armenians and only muslims in the region in 1917 in this so-called "political vacuum", why didn't these muslims restore control like in Gumuljine, Western Thrace in 1912 when a similar vacuum lead to the proclamation of a Turkish state in Gumuljine?"

I dont know what happened in Gumuljine but doesnt it strike you odd that Enver got the lands back so fast?

"
You can deny the Genocide against the Muslims all you want, but without it your theory about Genocide against Armenians simply does not make sense. For it to make sense you have to find a satisfactory answer about the Muslims in 1917"

Genocides of the muslims???? We have reached the same point that we stopped at one month ago, with you having no other proof than McCarthy's book...and the notion that everyone is against the Turks so their civilians massacres were not recorded. This discussion is going in circles.
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2006 at 00:10
Using the 35000 figure, there is no way such a small force would hold an area so large, and in the meantime annahilate the muslim population.
 
 
Gives the size of the Army of Islam as 25,000 soldiers- an underestimate? I think I cam accross a different figure somewhere else (armenica?) which metnioned around 80,000 soldiers, but in any case it is not much bigger than the Armenian army of 35,000.
 
Originally posted by mamikon

Power Vacuum doesnt mean that no one lived in those lands. Muslims were still there. I think the most similar term to a power vacuum would be an accidental demiliteralized zone (containing a civilian population), there was no army present there until Enver quickly engulfed the region.
 
It wasn't "quickly" at all. The vacuum lasted for a whole year, and the region was under Armenian control for two yeas  (since 1916)- it was not until March 1918 that the region was reclaimed by the Ottoman forces.
 
Moreover I doubt its was 35000 together, but fragmented...it is of course possible that atrocities against muslims took place, but at a scale of 500,000 deaths?
1917 was quiet and there were by then too few muslims to disturb the "vacuum". Most of the Muslim were massacred earlier in 1916 when Russians and Armenians were victorius. There were 500,000 Russians + 160,000 Armenian soldiers - perfectly capable of killing as many civilians. Besides as in the case of the Armenians, the muslim death toll was not only due to massacres, but also due to disease and starvation during their exile and "evacuation".
 
 
because they were not removed or missing, after the war they were still there no? while the Armenians werent
I ask again: if there were no Armenians and only muslims in the region in 1917 in this so-called "political vacuum", why didn't these muslims restore control like in Gumuljine, Western Thrace in 1912 when a similar vacuum lead to the proclamation of a Turkish state in Gumuljine?
 
You can deny the Genocide against the Muslims all you want, but without it your theory about Genocide against Armenians simply does not make sense. For it to make sense you have to find a satisfactory answer about the Muslims in 1917


Edited by bg_turk - 22-May-2006 at 00:13
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  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 23:36
Power Vacuum doesnt mean that no one lived in those lands. Muslims were still there. I think the most similar term to a power vacuum would be an accidental demiliteralized zone (containing a civilian population), there was no army present there until Enver quickly engulfed the region. Using the 35000 figure, there is no way such a small force would hold an area so large, and in the meantime annahilate the muslim population. Moreover I doubt its was 35000 together, but fragmented...it is of course possible that atrocities against muslims took place, but at a scale of 500,000 deaths? (as given by Turkish historians, and only backed by Turkish historians and the 4 western "denialists")

"why do you refuse to see the obvious that the muslims were simply removed", that they were "missing"?"

because they were not removed or missing, after the war they were still there no? while the Armenians werent


Edited by mamikon - 21-May-2006 at 23:49
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 23:17
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

     Okay let me explain what I meant by "power vacuum".

     The Russians controlled Caucasia, and during WW1 advanced into eastern Anatolia. They suddenly left in 1917. Just like that. That means all those provinces that they controlled are now leaderless, hence there is a power vacuum. I don't see what the Muslims have to do with this, especially when the power vacuum was filled by the advancing Ottoman army.
 
leaderless? Nazarbekian, Adranik (who is even famos here in the Balkans for his pillages during the 1878 war) and Morel were not leaders?
 
Ok we agree there was this power vacuum when the Russians left. But still you haven't answered my question of what the muslims were doing in this power vacuum. It took until January 1918 for Trabzon to be retaken by Enver's army, if there was a power vacuum why didn't its muslims liberate it by themselves? Were they prevented from doing so by the Armenians, or did the muslims simply not exist in Trabzon at all? Your maps certainly show that they did before the war started.
 
Why do you refuse to see the obvious that the muslims were simply "removed", that they were "missing"?
 
We always talk about Armenians and the Ottoman Army but we never mention the Muslim civilians which formed the majority in the area before the war started. Since you deny that Genocide against the muslims in the area occurred in 1916-1917, I simply want to know where according to your opinion were the Muslim civilians doing 1917? Were they massacred and killed, were they deported to other parts of the Empire, or were they simply impartial bystandarders to the whole drama? 
 
All of the main protagonists in 1917 have an allibi except the muslims. The Ottoman Army was busy in the Southern frontline and the next year was about to fill in the "power vacuum", the Armenians were mobilizng for their self-defense against the Ottoman Army. But where were the Muslim civilians during that time if they existed at all?


Edited by bg_turk - 21-May-2006 at 23:19
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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 22:40
     Okay let me explain what I meant by "power vacuum".

     The Russians controlled Caucasia, and during WW1 advanced into eastern Anatolia. They suddenly left in 1917. Just like that. That means all those provinces that they controlled are now leaderless, hence there is a power vacuum. I don't see what the Muslims have to do with this, especially when the power vacuum was filled by the advancing Ottoman army.
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 22:35
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

   
     You seem to forget that the vast majority of Armenians had been "deported" from 1915-1917, so the population map which I posted is completely irrelevant for post-1915 (I only posted it to show Bulldog that Armenians were in fact a majority population in areas of eastern Anatolia).
but this is precisely the point, and it goes on to show that there were even less Armenians in the region in 1917. How is it then possible that there was a "power vacuum" if the muslims were not somehow "removed" beforehand?


Edited by bg_turk - 21-May-2006 at 22:37
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 22:32
We are talking about the period before March 1918 here, mamikon. Enver reclaimed Eastern Turkey by March 1918 and continued with this army of Islam towards Baku, which he reached in Septermber. There is no doubt that Armenians were brutally crushed, massacred and deported in this period. What I want to know is what happened to the muslim population before that, in 1916-1917 and why was there a power vacuum in a predominanlty muslim region?! Clearly the muslims were missing. What had happened to them?

Edited by bg_turk - 21-May-2006 at 22:33
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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 22:29
     Maybe I didn't make myself clear. The self-defenses that I mentioned were in regards to Armenians fighting against the advancing Ottoman army, not the other instances of revenge acts and whatnot. I probably should have specified.

     And how was there not a power vacuum...if Russian troops controlled the Caucasus and eastern Anatolia and they suddenly leave, I'd say thats a pretty significant and sudden absence of power in the region.


Originally posted by bg_turk

Even if the Armenian Republic was not proclaimed until 1918, a semi-organized Armenian entity existed on the territories under Russ-Armenian occupation.


     If you find me some real historians who back this up then we can talk about it.

Originally posted by bg_turk

Russians advanced in 1916 on a territory which had muslim majority even according to the map that you provide. Where were these muslims in 1917? And how did they fail to get armed and fill in the "power vacuum", when even Armenians - "deportees left in the middle, forced to take up whatever arms they could find" - that were significantly weakened managed to mobilize and fight and face the Turks to the West with a force of 35,000 men?


     The number 35,000 I believe was an estimate by Winston Churchill, and he said those were the maximum number of troops which Armenians could muster. 35,000 men to protect all of modern-day Armenia and all of eastern Anatolia...that is a very small number. Also they were poorly equipped. Its not like the Russians left their guns with the Armenians, they had a revolution to fight at home.

     You seem to forget that the vast majority of Armenians had been "deported" from 1915-1917, so the population map which I posted is completely irrelevant for post-1915 (I only posted it to show Bulldog that Armenians were in fact a majority population in areas of eastern Anatolia).
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  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 22:20
"At midmorning on August 26, 1918, a small contingent of British soldiers from D Company of the North Staffordshire Regiment lay dug in along a defensive line at the crest of a dubious geological formation known locally as the Mud Volcano. It was the key in a defense plan protecting the vital oil town of Baku on the Caspian Sea -- and the target of Ottoman forces seeking to take advantage of the internal chaos created by Russia's ongoing revolution"

http://www.historynet.com/mh/blbaku/


"Besides these two issues, there is the third issue, which addresses the case of Muslim leaders who flirted with Marxism in its early days after the end of the First World War. We are told by historians of the period that some Muslim leaders who wanted to liberate their societies from the yoke of foreign rule briefly flirted with the idea of working with the communists. Two examples can be cited here. The first was Enver Pasha, who had in 1918 launched the "Army of Islam," ostensibly to help liberate the Muslims from the Russian Empire"

http://www.coloradocollege.edu/Academics/Anniversary/Transcripts/NyangTXT.htm

The objective of the British expedition, headed by Major General Wilfred Malleson of the Military Intelligence branch of the Indian Army, was to seize the great oil fields in Baku (Azerbaijan) ahead of Enver Pasha's advancing Turkish troops (Army of Islam) or the Kaiser's German troops - and to block a Bolshevik consolidation in the Caucasus and Central Asia.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/GF02Ag01.html


page 21
http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/F/firstworldwar/pdf/p09-script.pdf

Russians started withdrawing in 1917, the Armenians started to withdraw with them. If you say that the area was under Armenian control then how did Enver reach Baku in the may of 1918, while a part of his army was about to finish off the 500,000 Armenians confined in the Arax valley?


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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 22:14
Note to the moderators: Plese do not lock this thread, since it is not a discussion of the Armenian Genocide but a discussion of the muslim casualties during the same time period so it is not part of the blacklisted topics.
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 21:58
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival



     It was under Russian control. There was no independent Armenia until the First Republic of Armenia was established in 1918 (territories of the Russian province of Erivan, created only due to the Russian retreat and a failed invasion of Yerevan by Enver's troops). While the Russians were there, there was no independent-anything. It was all part of the Russian Empire. It was only after the Russian army left in 1917 that a power vaccuum was created in the region, with the remaining Armenian deportees left in the middle, forced to take up whatever arms they could find, in order to hold off Ottoman troops whom they knew were out to "deport" them. The Ottomans used these acts of self-defense (as well as other instances) as propaganda to say "look, the Armenians are resisting our rule" (just like how the Nazis called the Warsaw ghetto uprisings "revolts").
 
Please, please, stop looking for excuses for the autrocities comitted by Armenians. I try to be honest with you and never deny the autrocities comitted by the Turks.
 
Even if the Armenian Republic was not proclaimed until 1918, a semi-organized Armenian entity existed on the territories under Russ-Armenian occupation.
 
Russians advanced in 1916 on a territory which had muslim majority even according to the map that you provide. Where were these muslims in 1917? And how did they fail to get armed and fill in the "power vacuum", when even Armenians - "deportees left in the middle, forced to take up whatever arms they could find" - that were significantly weakened managed to mobilize and fight and face the Turks to the West with a force of 35,000 men? This power vacuum theory (for a region with muslim majority) is impossible unless the muslims were massacred and ethnically cleansed.
 
The "self-defense" claim would have been valid if the territories were entirely Armenian. You can't just kill or force most Turks and Muslims out of there, and then when they try to come back claim that you were only fighting in "self-defense" - that is utter rubbish. I try to be honest and I never deny the suffering of Armenians during the period and the massive massacres that have occurred against them, please stop denying the massacres against the muslims with these "power vacuum" and "self-defense" theories! There was no power-vacuum, if there was a vacuum of anything - it was a vacuum of muslims in the region; and Armenians were defending themselves against those same people that they forced out and killed just a year ago - this is no "self-defense".
 
 


Edited by bg_turk - 21-May-2006 at 22:04
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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 19:55
Originally posted by bg_turk

Please Survival stop denying that! Eastern Turkey was under Armenian control until the early months of 1918. The map below shows  how far the Russians had reached before they had haulted, when they left due to the Bolshevik Revolution. Armenians were in control of the territories for 2 whole years between 1916-1918. Armenian forced mounted a stiff defense of the territories but left alone they were defeated by Ottoman forces , and by March the Ottoman Army had captured Trebizond, Erzurum, Kars, Van and Batumi.


     It was under Russian control. There was no independent Armenia until the First Republic of Armenia was established in 1918 (territories of the Russian province of Erivan, created only due to the Russian retreat and a failed invasion of Yerevan by Enver's troops). While the Russians were there, there was no independent-anything. It was all part of the Russian Empire. It was only after the Russian army left in 1917 that a power vaccuum was created in the region, with the remaining Armenian deportees left in the middle, forced to take up whatever arms they could find, in order to hold off Ottoman troops whom they knew were out to "deport" them. The Ottomans used these acts of self-defense (as well as other instances) as propaganda to say "look, the Armenians are resisting our rule" (just like how the Nazis called the Warsaw ghetto uprisings "revolts"). The Armenians who held off the Ottomans near Yerevan in 1918 barely carried the day. It was only after this victory in 1918 that an independent Armenia was created out of the former Russian province of Erivan (which, as I said, Enver tried to take but failed).

Originally posted by bg_turk

Enver reached Baku on September 1918, but he had never entered Yerevan because Armenian forces defeated him at Sarikamish.


     He sent a force to take Yerevan, but they were defeated (barely). Also, I have only heard the Young Turks say that the Armenians were to blame for their defeat at Sarikamish. They used this as justification to carry out their plans for deportation. In reality the Ottomans lost at Sarikamish because of the Russian army (which had Armenian units from Russian Armenia in it, but if we're using this logic, we might as well blame the Ukranians for the Ottoman defeat at Sarikamish). After the Russians left I don't think Enver feared the Armenians so much, especially when he attacked them everywhere else, and then went all the way to Central Asia to fight.

Edited by ArmenianSurvival - 21-May-2006 at 19:59
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 19:08
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

 
     It is more surprising how half of Anatolia could be under Armenian control when in 1918 there were no Armenians there and the Russian army was nowhere in sight for a good year by then.
 
 
Please Survival stop denying that! Eastern Turkey was under Armenian control until the early months of 1918. The map below shows  how far the Russians had reached before they had haulted, when they left due to the Bolshevik Revolution. Armenians were in control of the territories for 2 whole years between 1916-1918.  
 
 
Armenian forced mounted a stiff defense of the territories but left alone they were defeated by Ottoman forces , and by March the Ottoman Army had captured Trebizond, Erzurum, Kars, Van and Batumi. Enver reached Baku on September 1918, but he had never entered Yerevan because Armenian forces defeated him at Sarikamish. 


Edited by bg_turk - 21-May-2006 at 19:11
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