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The Dravidian Problem

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K. V. Ramakrishna Rao View Drop Down
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  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Dravidian Problem
    Posted: 20-Apr-2007 at 08:00
The ring was found in Karur, the ancient capital of Chera kings and it has been tentatively dated to c.3 BCE - 4 CE on relative dating method.
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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  Quote mughal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2007 at 11:15

i am not diverting the discussion, also the ring u posted we could barely make out what they look like because its not clear. Also anyone from North india will tell you there are facial differences between the Northern people and Southern people, i am not sure is it because of aryan influnce or some other because North india has seen many invasions during its history.



Edited by mughal - 20-Apr-2007 at 11:16
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  Quote pathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 16:13

here is the thing south indians for the most part of the one race dravdians, while north indians many of them but not all are a mix of many different people so yeah generally there is difference in physical features.

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  Quote AlokaParyetra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 16:15
That's fine.

But i don't like it when people say North Indians are a different race than South Indians. More or less, we are all one people with little tidbits of this and that mixed in. Some have a spoonful, some none at all. But at the core, it's all just one.
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  Quote pathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 16:21
true generally 70 to even 80% of north indians still have huge amounts of dravidian blood, only 20-30% have more foriegn blood then orginal indian (dravidian) and these 20-30% of the people usally live places like Western UP, delhi, punjab, Rajishatan,etc....
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  Quote M. Nachiappan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2007 at 09:49
In spite of many researches made and established fact about the "racial myths", still "Dravidian blood" is talked about.
 
Really, Caldwell would resurrect and feel happy.
 
Or I do not know whether he has already enterted into Pathan and started talking about it!
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  Quote northpakistani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2007 at 14:18
But i don't like it when people say North Indians are a different race than South Indians. More or less, we are all one people with little tidbits of this and that mixed in. Some have a spoonful, some none at all. But at the core, it's all just one.--Aloka Paryetra
 
You can say the same thing about the world in general.
We are all ONE at the core;)
A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be.

-- Albert Einstein
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  Quote Azat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2007 at 23:31
Originally posted by northpakistani

But i don't like it when people say North Indians are a different race than South Indians. More or less, we are all one people with little tidbits of this and that mixed in. Some have a spoonful, some none at all. But at the core, it's all just one.--Aloka Paryetra
 
You can say the same thing about the world in general.
We are all ONE at the core;)
 
That is true ,but we have to accept the later evolutions and existence of different types as Caucasians ,mongoloids or austro asiatic variations in Indian population.
 
Can we discuss why these types are situated in different locations ie ,migration and settlements as Aborigines of Australia and Indians are related and might have separated along with the continental drift or Caucasians might have moved southward gradually with the filling of river beds flowing from northern Himalayas ,I mean guesses  reasonable and wild.
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  Quote kshtriya-Mer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2007 at 11:14

I am beginning to question the Aryan invasion, I mean if their was 1 they would defiantly not mix with dravadians.

 

I mean in the current theory it says when the Aryans first came they alredi had three classes of people  Kshtriya, brhaman, Vaishya, and the when they invaded the the aboriginal Indian population was made into the fouth caste shudra. Now how could some one from a higher caste marry a sudra when in fact a kshtriya wouldent even marry or have children with a vaishya.

 

In the purans and other vedic txts that the Aryans are said to have followed it is strictly forbidden to marry into a different class punishable by being declared an out caste.

 

so if their was such an invasion then all of the 3 classes of hindus would be identical to with Europeans or middle easterns (were ever the Aryans supposedly came from)

 

I mean it doesnt even happen now and India is becoming westernised so how could it happen back thn?

 

Im not say their was no mixing at all, its onli natural India has been invaded many times and maybe amoung royalty and noble classes their may have been certain aristocratic marrages between invaders for power. But in general I do not see much mixing. I think its much smaller then what the accepted theory is now.   

 

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  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2007 at 19:30
The papers posted here have already been published, discussed and debated.
 
Racially, it has been proved that there are neither Aryans nor Dravidians.
 
Therefore, discussion on such mythical, unscientific and unhistorical issues become redundant.
 
Inspite of the facts, repeatedly, again and again same questions are asked.
 
I request to deal such issues under "Racial myths, Politics and Human Unity"
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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  Quote kshtriya-Mer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2007 at 09:39
Originally posted by pathan

true generally 70 to even 80% of north indians still have huge amounts of dravidian blood, only 20-30% have more foriegn blood then orginal indian (dravidian) and these 20-30% of the people usally live places like Western UP, delhi, punjab, Rajishatan,etc....
 

Yes pathen I agree, but that 20 or 30% is not of any mystical Aryan race that 30 % of people that are very light skinned are the descendants of mongol/Scythian/ hun envaders. It is only natural that such invaders got mixed into the population.

 

but their was not at all no large scale invasion from any 1 country in bhart  were mixing could take place.  id say about 25% maximum are those people that are mixied with forigh invaders. The rest of the people have not mixed with no1 and are the same people that have resided in bharat for the last 50000.

 

Note once again the notion of a Aryan invasion is ludicrous. And a result of 18th century  British racism towards colonised India    

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2007 at 01:43
Originally posted by AlokaParyetra

That's fine.

But i don't like it when people say North Indians are a different race than South Indians. More or less, we are all one people with little tidbits of this and that mixed in. Some have a spoonful, some none at all. But at the core, it's all just one.


don't forgot in india
indo aryan 70%
dravidian 30 %
then how could they belong to same race
II)south indian and north indian are easily distinguish by face ,color ,features(high caste hindus )
III) i cant say about brahmins cz they sometime look dravidian
IV)north indians are caucasoid but southies have some less caucasoid features with more diversity
V)

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  Quote M. Nachiappan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2007 at 06:18
  1. I find very interesting data - 70% Indo-Aryan and 30% Dravidian and so on. How these figures are obtained?

 

  1. Then, Pathas blood analysis has been also blood curling - 70 to even 80% of north indians still have huge amounts of dravidian blood, only 20-30% have more foriegn blood then orginal indian (dravidian) and these 20-30% - one should know from his about the analysis.

 

  1. He has execelled our Dravidian politicians, who used to address their brethren as Oh my blood, Blood of Blood etc.!

 

  1. Khetriya-Mers observation has been perhaps crucial, as he points out that there were only three castes, then fourth came, then, there was prohibition of marriage among them etc.

 

  1. Aryans invaded other countries other than India. How then, such Varnashrama dharma / four tier Social division is not there or remodeled into respective societies accordingly. If so how they are exhibiting and how they are treated?

 

  1. Are they named as social groups - denominations, tribes etc., based on theology or social discrimination or religious?

 

  1. Incidentally, such blood analysis must have been carried out there also to find out the non-Aryan element. How much has been there in other countries - Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, etc?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2007 at 07:54
Originally posted by M. Nachiappan

  1. I find very interesting data - 70% Indo-Aryan and 30% Dravidian and so on. How these figures are obtained?

 

  1. Then, Pathas blood analysis has been also blood curling - 70 to even 80% of north indians still have huge amounts of dravidian blood, only 20-30% have more foriegn blood then orginal indian (dravidian) and these 20-30% - one should know from his about the analysis.

 

  1. He has execelled our Dravidian politicians, who used to address their brethren as Oh my blood, Blood of Blood etc.!

 

  1. Khetriya-Mers observation has been perhaps crucial, as he points out that there were only three castes, then fourth came, then, there was prohibition of marriage among them etc.

 

  1. Aryans invaded other countries other than India. How then, such Varnashrama dharma / four tier Social division is not there or remodeled into respective societies accordingly. If so how they are exhibiting and how they are treated?

 

  1. Are they named as social groups - denominations, tribes etc., based on theology or social discrimination or religious?

 

  1. Incidentally, such blood analysis must have been carried out there also to find out the non-Aryan element. How much has been there in other countries - Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, etc?




go through theses links
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN
http://www.elca.org/countrypackets/india/desc.html
http://www.planetpads.com/public/page.do?page.ID=66102
http://www.passportexpress.com/default.aspx?page=show_visa&action=India

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2007 at 07:57

The Sudroid (Indo-African) Race

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm


Africa%20Speaks%20Homepage The Sudran, or Sudroid, race refers to the aboriginal populations of India. Formerly widepread over all of India, they were displaced from most of Hindustan (North India) and virtually all of the Deccan by invading Aryans. Sudroid includes the following peoples:


Sudroid
  • Dravidoids (speakers of Dravidian languages)
  • Untouchables or Avarans
    • Antyajas/Dalits/SC
    • Adivasis/ST
  • Vedic Shudrs (Aryanized and enslaved blacks)
They are a black race, closely related to the Africans and Australoids, as evident from -
  • Black skin , broad noses , thick lips and wavy-curly hair
  • Linguistically, all the languages are related.
  • Genetically they are closely related


This ends the basic section. The advanced section is below.

The Sudran (Indo-African) Race

Table of Contents



1. Physiognomy



1.1 Black Skin

The most evident similarity between Africans and Sudroids is their black skin colour. It often approaches deep black, and when shiny resemble tar. The Adi Dravidas (true Dravidians) of South India are black like the Africans with a slightly different hair texture [ Win.gen ].

1.2 Nasal Index

The nose of Sudroids closely resembles that of Negroids and Australoids, being very broad. In both pure black African and pure Sudroid it is often as wide as it is broad, ie. the nasal index (ratio of width to height) is 100. By contrast Caucasians are fine-nosed. The Indo-Aryan is thus very similar to the European, possessing a fine nose, while the Sudroid is related to the Africans -

                 Race        Nasal Index         Nasal Type
Arya (Indo-Aryan)
Brahman (Bengal) 70.3 fine-nosed sub-leptorrhine
Rajput 71.6 fine-nosed sub-leptorrhine
Vaisya (Jat) 68.8 fine-nosed leptorrhine
Vaisya (Bania) 79.6 medium-nosed mesorrhine

Sudroid
Dravidian (Kadian) 89.8 broad-nosed platyrrhine
Dalit (Chamar) 86.0 broad-nosed platyrrhine
Adivasi (Munda) 89.9 broad-nosed platyrrhine
Vedic Shudrs (Dom) 83.0 broad-nosed sub-platyrrhine

-- [ Ris App. III p.395 ff ]
By comparison, the French of Paris average 69.4 [ Ris 28-9 ], while pure Africans average between 90 and 100.

1.3 Wavy-Curly Hair & Thick Lips

The hair of Sudroids is wavy and often curly, with imported Africans ( eg. the Makranis, the Siddis of Sind and the Dakhin ) it is frizzy. It is a common misconception to asume all Africoids have frizzy hair; it is often curly and wavy in Nubia and Abyssinia.

Curly Hair -
Friedrich Mueller classified black races according to hair texture, classing them under the tufted-haired peoples ( Bushmen, Hottentots and Papuans ), fleece-haired peoples ( Bantu and Negro ) and wavy-haired peoples ( Hamitic, Semitic and Nuba-Fulla ).
-- [ EB 'Languages of the World' ]

Another trait in common is the thick everted lips [ Arav.neg ] .

1.4 Prognathism

Pronounced prognathism is characteristic of all black races from Africa to southern India and Oceania - Australia. In addition, the teeth are relatively larger in case of Australoids and Kolarians, as well as Dravidians.

1.5 Skeletal Similarities

Long Forearm -
The forearm of Suroids and Africans are long.

Dolicocephaly -
Dolicocephaly ( long-headedness ) is common amongst Sudras. In fact, many are classed as hyperdolicocephalic. Dolicocephaly is common amongst East Africans in general ( Nilotes, Sudanic Blacks and Cush*tes - Hamites or Abyssinians )

2. Ethnographic Evidence



2.1 Boomerang & Hunting Customs

The boomerang is used by Dravidian abroginals, Australoids and is recorded from Egypt.

2.2 Theological

Both Africans and Dravidians held a common interest in teh cult of the Serpent and believed tn a Supreme God, who lived in aplace of peace and tranqulity. Murugan the Dravidian god of the mounatins parallels a common god in East Africa worshipped by 25 ethnic groups called Murungu, the god who resides in the mountains [ Win.gen ]

2.3 Burial & Death Rites

Burning of the dead body is a characteristic of Indo-Aryans, while burial of the dead was common to Indo-Africans. In both South India and the Western Sudan and Senegambia the dead were buried and interned in terra cotta jars [ Singh ] [ Win.gen ]

2.4 Circumcision & Initiation Rites

Circumcision, both male and female, was practiced by Dravidians and is still widely practiced in Africa.

2.5 Agricultural

Both groups use the hoe for tilling the ground, manuring the ground to fertilize crops, terracing irrrigation and canal building.

Wheat of the 6-row variety, which is found in predynastic graves in Egypt, has been discovered at Harappan sites dating much later, as late as 2300-1750 BC. On the Gangetic plain, barley was found at neolithic Hallum in Mysore state (1800 BC). Pearl millet has been found at Saurasthra and Ahar (1200-100 BC). Indian sorghum is clearly of African origin. Cultivated cotton which came from West Africa appear at Mohenjo-Daro and harrapa from 2300-1700 BC. [ Win.agri ]

2.6 Building Construction & Ship-Building

Both races used a single log or planks tied together

2.7 Inheritance

Among the ali tiravitar (Adi Dravidas, or real Dravidians), the system of inheritance passes from the uncle to his nephews, instead of his sons (maru makkal tayam) as in Africa [ Win.gen ]

2.8 Calendrical

The Dravidians and Africans used the same calendrical systema [ Win.agri ].

3. Archaeological



3.1 Megalithic Cultures

Megalithic cultures in India and Africa dating to the third millenium BC are very similar: both contain black-and-red ware, bones and pottery sarcophagi near water tanks [ Win:Agri ]. Cave paintings are also very similar, pointing to ancient contacts.

3.2 Pottery : Red-and-Black Ware

The black races are consistently associated with red-and-black pottery all over the world. Pottery of the Nubians is very similar to Dravidian pottery.

4. Linguistic



The most evident linguistic connections between African and Dravidian languages is in place-names:
   Africa                          India
------ ------
Botswana, Bophutatswana (reg) Gondwana (region)
Ubangi (river) Bhangi (caste)
Gonder (town, reg.) Gond (tribe)
Galla (tribe) Goala (caste), Gaya (town)
Kongo (river, reg., tribe) Kongu Nadu (reg.), Kond or Khond (tribe)
Imbangala (tribe) Bangala or Bengal (tribe, reg.)

  • The 'Congo' river and the 'Kongo' tribes are cognate to the Kongu Nadu comprising the Salem tract in Tamil Nadu prior to its conquest by the Cholas [ EB 10 salem 350 ].
  • The suffix '-wana' is common to Bantu and Dravidian languages, thus Botswana and Bophuthatswana in southern Africa [ EB 2 botswana 412 ] [ EB 2 boph. 376 ] and Gondwana in central India [ EB 5:358 ].
  • The Mbangala or Imbangala warrior tribe of central Angola [ EB 6: imb. 266 ] are cognate to the Bangala tribe and the region named after them in eastern India, which later became Bengal.
  • The Ubangi river [ EB ubangi 12:98 ] is the largest right-bank tributary of the Congo river and flows past Bangui town (the capital of the Central African Republic). A black tribe (and later low caste) by the name of Bhangi exists in northern India. The Bangweulu is a large lake and swamp region in northeastern Zambia. In Bantu the term denotes 'Large Water' [ EB 1 bangw. 868 ]
  • The Galla are the largest ethnic group in Ethipia, forming 40 % of the population [ EB 5 galla 87 ]. They are cattle-herders, as are the black-skinned low-caste known as Goala (cow-herders) in central India.
  • The Mbundu are the second-largest ethnic group of Angola [ EB 7 mbundu 986 ] while the Munda are in Eastern India.
  • The Ndongo tribe of the Mbundu [ EB 7 mbundu 986 ] are perhaps cognate to the Dombas or Doms of India.
  • The Godabas of Somalia may have given their name to the Godavari River in the Deccan.
  • Congates of 'gond' and 'gong' are widepread in Africa and Dravidia. Gonder or Gondar is the ancient capital of Ethiopia 1652-1855 as well as the surrounding region. The Gongola river is the primary tributary of the Benue River, while the Gongola basin is in northeastern Nigeria [ EB 5 gongola 359 ]. The Guang or Gonja in northern Ghana, who are descendant of Mandingos, speak the Gur and Goja languages and founded the Gonja kingdom [ EB 5 guang 532 ] The Gond are a large group of Draviidan tribes in Central India.


The Congolese linguist Th. Obenga proposed the term 'Indo-African' languages in analogy with 'Indo-European' [ Obenga ]. Prof. L. Homburger established close linguistic connections between Dravidian and Senegalese languages especially Fulani, as well as Kannada - Bantu and Telugu - Mande relationships [ Hom ]. Prof. Tuttle established connections between Nubian and Dravidian languages [ Tuttle ]. Prof. Lahoverty established conections between African and Dravidian languages [ Lah ]. Senegalese and Dravidian languages are closely related grammatically, structurally and lexically [ N'D ] [ Ups ]. The Upper Nile basin is considered by some scholars to be the original home of the Dravidians on linguistic grounds [ Win.gen 1118 ]

Dravidian legends mention an ancient landmass which disappeared into the Ocean. The Tamils say that it was highly populated and included large cities, now buried beneath the sea. Tamil historians have discussed this land mass in detail throughout history; eg. Ariyarkkunallar in the 12th century. Linguistic evidence indicates that the Dravidians are related to the C-group Nubians of the Western Sahara who built the Kerma empire. Since Egypt was often at war with Kerma, the connection across Lemuria seems more plausible. [Winters:Agri]

5. Genetic



The Sudroid and Africoid peoples are also genetically closely related. The genetic similarities between Africans and Sudrics include:
  • Glucose-6-Phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency
  • Gene for sickle-cell anemia is common
  • Enzymes providing malaria resistance are present


The Kolarians (Indo-Australoids) share many genetic similarities with the Australoids and Oceanic Negroids. Genetic similarities of the Kolarians with the Australoids and Oceanic Negroids include :
  • Glucose-6-Phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency and alcohol intolerance
  • A large ratio of B type blood
  • Rarity of Rhesus negative
  • Rarity of P2 gene
  • Rarity of A type, and especially A2
  • Shovel-shaped incisors are common
  • Low bi-zygomatic diameter


In addition, the hair is frequently reddish to blonde in childhood in the case of Australoid Blackfellows, Dravidians and Kolarians.

Genetic Studies of mtDNA of Dravidians in Andhra displayed a close similarity with African populations [ Bam ].

6. Zoological & Botanical Evidence

Zoological and Botanical similarities are numerous between animal and plant species of Africa, Australia and South India (Dravidia). This indicates that the similarity of humans extends to the plant and animal kingdoms as well. These similarities arise from either migration across the Suez and the MIddle East into India and thence to Australia, or due to submerged land bridges in the Indian Ocean.

6.1 Reptiles

Python -
The python is found from western Africa to China, Australia and the Pacific Islands. The slender reticulated python is probably the world's longest snake, often reaching 8 m ( 26 feet ) with one specimen recorded as 9.6 m in length. The Indian python is usually less than 4 m but is much thicker and sometimes reaches 8m in length. The African python often reaches 7 m while the species in West Africa ( the Ball/Royal python ) is, as expected, smaller, reaching 1.5 m. The blood python of Malaya, Sumatra and Borneo is reddish and averages 2.7 m.
-- [ EB 9 'python' 828 ]

Mangrove Snake -
The manrove snake, comprising 30 species of hte genus Boiga, is found from tropical Africa to Australia and Polynesia [ EB 7'mangr.'774 ].

6.2 Mammals

Rhinoceros -
The term denotes any of 5 species of the family Rhinocerotidae ( and sometimes includes extinct fossil genera ). These animals are found only in eastern and southern Africa and tropical Asia, lending further support to the unity of vegetation of Africa and India and indicating that recent exchange of zoo-botanicl contact existed much after the breakup of Gondwanaland. The great Indian rhino ( R. unicornis ) is the largest of all extant species, reaching 4.3 m in length and 2 m in height at the shoulder, while the Sumatran rhino is the smallest ( height 2.5 m or 8 foot and 2 m high ).
-- [ EB 10 'rhino' 23 ]

Buffalo -
Buffalos are again common to Africa and the Indies, while the related bison/wisent occurs in North America and Europe. The black Indian buffalo ( Bubalus bubalus ) reaches 1.5 m of more at the shoulder, as does the black Cape or African buffalo ( Syncerus caffer ). A red-brown subspecies of the Cape buffalo in the dense forests of equatorial western Africa is, like humans and animals of West Africa in general, much smaller. The anoa, a small dark brown buffalo of the dense Celebes rainforests and the tamaraw of the Philippines are also smaller species.
-- [ EB 2 'buffalo' 607 ]

Elephant -
The elephant once again is restricted to the Indies and Africa. 3 species exist: the Indian elephant, the large African elephant and the dwarfish Pygmy elephant of the rainforests of West Africa.
-- [ EB 4 'elephant' 441-2 ]

Felidae (Felines) -
The lion was once found in Africa, Europe and Asia. Now it is found only in sub-Saharan Africa and in India (eg. the Gir National Forest, Gujarat) [ EB 7 'lion' 382-3 ]. The leopard is found from Africa trough Anatolia, Central Asia, India, China and Manchuria. Varieties include the Barbary, South Arabian, ANantolian, Amur, SInai leopards [ EB 'leo.' 281 ]

6.3 Botanical

Baobab Tree -
The baobab trees ( Adansonia digitata ), belonging to the bombax family (Bombacaceae) are native to Africa. However, a closely related and very similar tree, also known as baobab ( Adansonia gregoria ), occurs in Australia ! [ EB 1 'baobab' 877 ]

Banyan Tree -
The banyan tree ( Ficus benghalensis ) with its characteristic prop roots that resemble trunks is native to India. However, a similar variety, the wonderboom ( Ficus pretoia ) of Africa is very similar [ EB 28 'trees' 881 ] !

Capparaceae Trees -
Trees of the order Capparaceae, family moringaceae occur from Africa to India [ EB 13'angio.'638 ] and are another indication of the unity of Indian and African botanical life.

Appendix I - The Sudran Races

The Sudra, or Indo-African, Race consists of the following sub-races:
  • Dravidian - Dravidian-speaking Sudras:
    • Settled Dravidians - Tamils, Mallas/Malabaris, and Karnadas
    • Adivasi Dravidas in North India (Gonds, Bhils, Brahui etc.) and South India (Tulus, Kurumba etc.)
  • Kolarians - Austric-Speaking Blacks or Indo-Australoid Sudras.
  • Dalits - Hindicized Aboriginal Blacks and imported Africans (Habshis), SC in North India

Appendix II - Origin of the Term Sudra

The term Shudra first appears in Sanskrit texts around 1500 BC denoting one of the black aboriginal tribes that the Aryans conquered. It was subsequently expanded to all blacks subjugated, and the term Dasa or Dasyu , or slave, was used to denote the servitude to which most Sudras were subjected. Sanskrit texts refer to the Shudra as the black varna or colour. Thus Shudra is equivalent as a racial term to the Latin Negra . Initially it only referred to subjugated aboriginals and not the aboriginals themselves who were referred to as avarna and later Adiavasi. Thus the terms Adivasi and Sudra were exclusive. Later under Muslim rule Arabic: sudd- black and hence Sudra 9not Shudra) became the generic term for Indian blacks.

In its modern sense Sudra denoted any black man in India and hence includes the following sub-races:
  • Dravidians - Speakers of Dravidian languages. This includes
    • South Indian Dravidians or Settled Dravidians
      • Tamils
      • Mallas/Malabaris : Malayalis, Mallas
      • Karanad
    • Adivasi or Aboriginal Dravidians (eg. Tulu, Kurumba)
  • Kolarians - Kolarian speakers, incl. Mundas, Oraons, Santal, Ho
  • Dalits - Hindicized Sudras. This includes
    • Habshis or Hindicized Abyssinians
    • Hindicized Kols, eg. Bhuiyas

The term Shudra is first recorded from Sanskrit texts as referring to one of the black aboriginal tribes that the Aryans encountered. It is the name of a black tribe that was adopted into Sanskrit and was subsequently used to denote those blacks who had entered the caste system as the lowest 'varna' or color. They were the black varna. Initially, a distinction was drawn between Sudra and Adivasi (aboriginal blacks outside the caste system). However, in Prakrits the distinction was blurred, and Shudra was used for any aboriginal. During the Islamic Califate of Hindustan, Arabic became a sacred language, and in Arabic 'sudd' means black ( hence the 'bilad as-Sudan' or the Sudan of Africa ), and hence Sudra was used for any black, even the blacks imported from Africa. Terms of Abuse incl. Kalu kalia Kaluta kaffir English Hindustani Negro (Latin "negri") Sudra (Sans. "Shudra", Arab. "Sudd",black Black Kala

Appendix III - Nasal Index

The classification in general use is - leptorrhine (fine nose) if the nasal index is 70, mesorrhine is it is between 70-85 and platyrrhine (broad-nosed) if it is 85. The Indo-Aryan is comparable to the European, fopr the French of Paris have a nasal index of 69.4 as measurd by Topinard [ Ris 28-9 ]. According to Sir H.H.Risley, the nose of Sudras is very similar to that of the lowest Negro types. The nasal index frequently reaches more than 100. The Paniyans of Malabar have an average nasal index of 95, while certain individual Kadias of Tamil Nad measured 115. [ Ris App.III p.369].
        Race           Nasal Index           Nasal Type

Indo-Aryan (Arya)
Brahman (Bengal) 70.3 sub-leptorrhine
Brahman (Bihar) 73.2 sub-leptorrhine
Brahman (Bhojpur) 74.6 sub-leptorrhine
Rajput 71.6 sub-leptorrhine
Kayasth (Bengal) 70.3 sub-leptorrhine
Jat 68.8 leptorrhine
Vaisya (Bania) 79.6 sub-leptorrhine
Gujjar 66.9 leptorrhine

Sikhs 68.8 leptorrhine [ Ris 28-9 ]

Sudroid
Paniyans (Malabar) 95.1 platyrrhine
Santal 88.8 platyrrhine
Munda 89.9 platyrrhine
Kol 82.2 sub-platyrrhine
Kadia 89.8 platyrrhine
Vellala 73.1 sub-platyrrhine
Tamil Brahman 76.7 sub-platyrrhine
Asur (Lohardaga) 95.9 platyrrhine
Bhil 84.1 sub-platyrrhine
Pariah 80.0 sub-platyrrhine
Irula 80.9 sub-platyrrhine
Kadia 89.8 platyrrhine
Musahar 88.7 platyrrhine
Chamar 86.0 platyrrhine
Dom 83.0 sub-platyrrhine

-- [ Ris App. III p.395 ff ]
Certain more recent analysts wish to refute Risley's claims [ Ghurye ] [ Bose ] but their results lack the depth and quality of RIsley's.

Appendix IV - Linguistic Relationships

The most evident linguistic connections between African and Dravidian languages is in place-names:
   Africa                          India
------ ------
Botswana, Bophutatswana (reg) Gondwana (region)
Ubangi (river) Bhangi (caste)
Gonder (town, reg.) Gond (tribe)
Gongola Gond
Gonga (people,Ghana) Gond
Galla (tribe) Goala (caste), Gaya (town)
Kongo (river, reg., tribe) Kongu Nadu (reg.), Kond or Khond (tribe)
Imbangala (tribe) Bangala or Bengal (tribe, reg.)
Tsonga (tribe) Tunga (Kalinga abor. rulg. family)
Tonga (tribe) Tunga
Pongo Pandya (Tamil dyn.), Ponda
Kadamba Kurumba (tribe, dyn.)
Katanga (distt., Congo) Kurumba
Karanga (eth.Zimbab.) Kurumba
Kamba (n.e. Bantu) Kadamba (or Kurumba)
Sotho, Basuto (tr., S.Afr.) Sudra (caste)
Aja (tr., Nigeria) Anga
Kinga (tr.) Kalinga (natn)
Ila (tr.) Irula
Ila Bhilla
Toga Toda
Ganda (tr.) Ganda (anus, Sans.)
Mamba Malla, Malaya, Malabar
Nuer Nayar (caste)
Pongo Pengu (tr.,Orissa)
Mende (w.afr.people) Manda (Drav.people)
Zulu (tr., S.Af.) Tulu
Uganda Konda (Dr.tr.), Gonda
Iramba (rift Bantu) Irula
Turu (rift Bantu) Tulu
Masai (e. Nilotes) Malay or Malabar, Mallas
Kinga (Nyasa Bantu, Tanz.) Kalinga (natn.,race)

Manyika Mleccha (sans. for barbarian)

The 'Congo' river and the 'Kongo' tribes are cognate to the Kongu Nadu comprising the Salem tract in Tamil Nadu prior to its conquest by the Cholas [ EB 10 salem 350 ]. The suffix '-wana' is common to Bantu and Dravidian languages, thus Botswana and Bophuthatswana in southern Africa [ EB 2 botswana 412 ] [ EB 2 boph. 376 ] and Gondwana in central India [ EB 5:358 ]. The Mbangala or Imbangala warrior tribe of central Angola [ EB 6: imb. 266 ] are cognate to the Bangala tribe and the region named after them in eastern India, which later became Bengal. The Ubangi river [ EB ubangi 12:98 ] is the largest right-bank tributary of the Congo river and flows past Bangui town (the capital of the Central African Republic). A black tribe (and later low caste) by the name of Bhangi exists in northern India. The Bangweulu is a large lake and swamp region in northeastern Zambia. In Bantu the term denotes 'Large Water' [ EB 1 bangw. 868 ] The Galla are the largest ethnic group in Ethipia, forming 40 % of the population [ EB 5 galla 87 ]. They are cattle-herders, as are the black-skinned low-caste known as Goala (cow-herders) in central India. The Mbundu are the second-largest ethnic group of Angola [ EB 7 mbundu 986 ] while the Munda are in Eastern India. The Ndongo tribe of the Mbundu [ EB 7 mbundu 986 ] are perhaps cognate to the Dombas or Doms of India. The Godabas of Somalia may have given their name to the Godavari River in the Deccan. Congates of 'gond' and 'gong' are widepread in Africa and Dravidia. Gonder or Gondar is the ancient capital of Ethiopia 1652-1855 as well as the surrounding region. The Gongola river is the primary tributary of the Benue River, while the Gongola basin is in northeastern Nigeria [ EB 5 gongola 359 ]. The Guang or Gonja in northern Ghana, who are descendant of Mandingos, speak the Gur and Goja languages and founded the Gonja kingdom [ EB 5 guang 532 ] The Gond are a large group of Draviidan tribes in Central India.

The Congolese linguist Th. Obenga proposed the term 'Indo-African' languages in analogy with 'Indo-European' [ Obenga ]. Prof. L. Homburger established close linguistic connections between Dravidian and Senegalese languages especially Fulani, as well as Kannada - Bantu and Telugu - Mande relationships [ Hom ]. Prof. Tuttle established connections between Nubian and Dravidian languages [ Tuttle ]. Prof. Lahoverty established conections between African and Dravidian languages [ Lah ]. Senegalese and Dravidian languages are closely related grammatically, structurally and lexically [ N'D ] [ Ups ]. The Upper Nile basin is considered by some scholars to be the original home of the Dravidians on linguistic grounds [ Win.gen 1118 ]

Clear relationships have been established between Dravidian and Australoid languages [ Holmer ] [ Bleek ] [ 3 Oc. 189 ].

Apendix V - Lemuria

Dravidian legends mention an ancient landmass which disappeared into the Ocean. The Tamils say that it was highly populated and included large cities, now buried beneath the sea. Tamil historians have discussed this land mass in detail throughout history; eg. Ariyarkkunallar in the 12th century. Linguistic evidence indicates that the Dravidians are related to the C-group Nubians of the Western Sahara who built the Kerma empire. Since Egypt was often at war with Kerma, the connection across Lemuria seems more plausible. [Winters:Agri]

The English zoologost Philip Sclater propsed the theory of the continent of Lemuria in the mid-1800s [ 3 Oc. 127 ]

Appendix V - Miscellaneous Notes

The Asurs of Lohardaga [ Ris p.399 ] Dravidian
'In fact the word 'Kol' is a loose term used by the Hindus of the plains as a word of derision. De Meulder describes it as an Indian equivalent of the word 'nigger' in the US ... [for scientific purposes Kol includes teh Larka Kols or Hos of Man and Dhalbhhum, the Munda Kols of Chotanagpur and the Bhumij ... The Hos are physically [supereior] to the other cognate branches of the Kolarian tribes... p.9 'The constatnt early use of teh bow expanded the chest and set the muscles and their innate passion for the chase over the steep and rugged hills brought their lower limbs nto a state of fitness, which the best phulwan (wrestler) of the plains of India might envy. Male height average 5'5" or 5'6" height women 5'2" .. copper tint complexion common women physically hetter ... developed Aryan influence ... more than 50 % of the population in Chota Nagpur division.'
-- [C.P.Singh p.8]


References
  1. [ Arav.ph ] = K.P.Aravanan, 'Physical and cultural similarities between Dravidian and African' , J. of Tamil Studies 10 (1976) 23-27

  2. [ Arav.bk ] = K.P.Aravanan, 'Dravidians and Africans', Madras 1979.

  3. [ Arav.neg ] = K.P. Aravanan, 'Notable negroid elements in Dravidian India', Journal of Tamil Studies 17 (1980) pp.20-45.

  4. [ Ann. ] = 'The Annals of Rural Bengal', W.W.Hunter, Broomhill House 1868, reprinted in 'Landmarsk in Indian Anthropology', vol. 7, Cosmo Publishing, N.Delhi 1987

  5. [ Bam ] = M. Bamshad et al, "mtDNA Variation in Caste Populations" Human Biology v. 68 (1996) 1

  6. [ Bleek ] = 'Handbook of African, Australian & Polynesian Languages', William H.J.Bleek, 3 vols. (1858-63)

  7. [ Bose ] = 'The Gazetteer of India', vol.1, Govt. of India, 1973, N.K.Bose, A.Mitra & H.Mukherjee. opposes Risley's idea of nasal index variation by caste.

  8. [ Ghurye ] = 'Caste, Class and Occupation in India', Bombay 1961 opposes the notion of caste variation of nasal index.

  9. [ Holmer ] = 'On the History & Structure of the Australian Language', N.M.Holmer, Lund, Sweden 1963

  10. [ Lal ] = Lal, B , "The Only Asian expedition in threatened Nubia : Work by an Indian Mission at Afyeh and Tumas", The Illustrated London Times , 20 April 1963.

  11. [ N'D ] C.T. N'Diaye, 'The relationship between Dravidian languages and Wolof', Annamalai University Ph.D. Thesis.1978.

  12. [ Muir ] = 'Original Sanskrit Texts', Muir

  13. [ Obenga ] = 'L'Afrique dans l'Antiquete', Th. Obenga, Paris

  14. [ 3 Oc. ] = 'Riddles of 3 Oceans', Alexander Kondratov

  15. [ Ris ] = 'The People of India' by Sir H.H.Risley 1915
    2nd ed., ed. by Sir W. Crooke 1969

  16. [ Singh ] = P. Singh, 'Burial Practices in Ancient India', Varanasi 1984

  17. [ Seng.neg ] = 'Negritude and Dravidian Culture' , L.S.Senghor, J. of Tamil Studies 10 (1974) p.4

  18. [ Seng.y ] = 'Why create a Department of Indo-African Studies at Dahar', J. of Tamil Studies 5 (1974) 1-11

  19. [ Tuttle ] = 'Dravidian and Nubian', E.H.Tuttle, J. of the Amer. Oreintal Society 52 (1932) 133-144

  20. [ Upa ] = 'Dravidian and Negro-African', U.P.Upadhyaya, Intnl. J. of Dravidian Linguisitsics 5:1 (1976) 32-64

  21. [ U+U 76 ] = P.Upadhyaya & S.P.Upadhyaya, 'Affinites ethno-linguistiques entre Dravidiens et les Negro-Africain' , Bull. IFAN , no.1 (1976) pp.127-157

  22. [ U+U 79 ] = P. Upadhyaya & S.P. Upadhyaya, 'Les liens entre Kerala et l"Afrique tels qu'ils resosortent des survivances culturelles et linguistiques', Bulletin de L'IFAN , no.1 (1979) pp.100-132

  23. [ Win.gen ] = 'The Genetic Unity of Dravidian and African Language and Culture', Clyde A. Winters, 1st Intnl Symosm. on Asian Studies 5, 1105-1120

  24. [ Win.agri ] = 'African Influences on Indian Agriculture',
    J of African Civlization, 3:1 (April 1981) p.100-110

  25. [ Win.un ] = C.A. Winters, 'The Unity of African and Indian Agriculture', Journal of African Civilization 3, no.1 (1981a) p.103

  26. [ Win.prot ] = C.A.Winters, 'The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians', Tamil Civilization 3, no.1 (March 1985) p.1-9

  27. [ Win.pla ] = C.A.Winters, 'Common African and Dravidian Place Name Elements', South Asian Anthropologist 9:1 (1988) 32-36

  28. [ Win.dal ] = 'The African Origin of Glorious Dalits', Dalit Voice 4:2 (16-30 Sept. 1985 ) 1-8

  29. [ Win.lang ] = C.A.Winters, "The Dravidian and African Languages", International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics , 23 (2), (1994) pp.34-52.

  30. [ Win.com ] = C.A.Winters, 'Linguistic continuity and African and Dravidian languages', 25 (2), (1996) pp.24-35.

  31. [ Win.elam ] = C.A.Winters, "The genetic Unity between the Dravidian ,Elamite, Manding and Sumerian Languages", Proc. Sixth ISAS ,1984, (Hong Kong:Asian Research Service,1985d) pages 1413-1425.

  32. [ EB ] = 'Encyclopedia Britannica'




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Edited by sunswing1983 - 08-May-2007 at 07:58
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K. V. Ramakrishna Rao View Drop Down
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  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2007 at 22:22

I have read the above posting very carefully three times.

 

I have referred to the secondary sources mentioned.

 

I have those books and journals also and I have discussed wth Sri. K. P Aravanan also.

 

Sunswning's posting of the article is mixture of secondary sources and appears to be "Dravidian propaganda". I know some of AE have already condemned such "Tamil nationalist" view. In fact, they oppose and treat "Aryans" as their enemies. Their writings, if you happend to read, you may not relish also.

 

Thus, the research on "Aryans" and "Dravidians" on the lines of race, racism and racialism is rejected, but the linguistic interpretation is pursued. But again and again , they are confused to infuse race and racism with hatred against one particular community (it may be called fascism also, as they use to dub others with such terminology).

 

See the fun, to establish the "Sudra / Dravidian" identity, the "Aryan / Sanskrit" source is depended upon and quoted. Why such words are not found in their own literature?

 

Psychologically, antropologically and sociologically, the literature is the primary source of evidence of people, in which, they have recorded their thought processes subjected to various psychological and hereditary factors.

 

The victors never exhibit slavish mentality. The slaves or the defeated show their superficial "winning mentality". That is why generally, the defeated inscribe in their records that they won the whole world and even beyond etc., mentioning their own known names, even though, they might not even known or seen such things with such names. Of course, if we ask mayerial evidences, they would not show and they go on harp upon such evidences.

 

Finally, I have dealt with in my paper giving all data in tables appended, but as has already mentioned my paper has been meddled with.

 

So if any researcher tries to prove Shudra character in morphology, oestiology, blood etc., let them disprove Edgar Thruston and others.

 

Therefore, instead of "politicized" interpretation, historical interpretation is better.

 

History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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  Quote pumaaa123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 04:07
No, even a bangla, bihari or rajasthani can have same look (skull, eyes, lips, color etc). Think the mustach is the problem for you.
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  Quote pumaaa123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 04:20

The aryan-dravidian is actually a false theory. If there had been any such movement of Central Asian ppl to this sub-continent it would been well identified today. But the south asian-indian subconitent people are identified with their unique appearance worldover. If there had been any such movement then it would been visibly seen like the 'Mongals in Turkey'.

Even the dravidian theory is equally false. All the subcontinent people have their origin from indus civilization. The upper region had ppl of pale brown, the middle with brown and the lower region with more brownish. This too because of inhabitence of the people in the region for long time and this color impact is becuase of latitude of the regions to the sun ray.  People living down the equator are darker in color worldover be it chinese or native american indians.

 

For insisting the same, the group of afericanas whom travelled over the continents to australia some 20000 years before and stayed inbetween in certain pockets are till indentified with separate sects in south india and pakistan. Then how come such aryans were be left without any identification. But there is one possibility of such one small group been moved and mixed with local population whom are called Brahmins. Even in this case, the central asian content in this population would be very marginal. Still the sub-continent is revolving around the aryan-dravidian mis-concept.

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  Quote Shekhawat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 04:34
Dear pumaaa123,
Your points are valid enough...as these theories of Aryan-Dravidians are very new .... People used to hear all these only after decline of company rule in india.
The Crown always tried to make a divide between Indians on the basis of   religion,caste,language or Region.
May be it was a larger conspiracy.
 
Rgds
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Watch This-:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYtKBLbFmXs
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  Quote pumaaa123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 04:55
 
Black skin , broad noses , thick lips and wavy-curly hair - This is quite well known for a african black. But where you find this in India specially with sudras. Have you seen such caste people from your eyes? No sudra (as you say) of any part India be it Maharastra, Tamil Nadu or Bihar have such marks. One thing that stands for difference is 'shadded skin' which may be becuase of longtime working in bare sunray.


Edited by pumaaa123 - 07-Jun-2007 at 06:30
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