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Ancient India was Pakistan

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Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ancient India was Pakistan
    Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 02:07
Originally posted by Rajput

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

lol! Nadir Shah of Persia? Nadir Shah of Afghanistan!

Are you mixing the Nadir Shah of the Afsharid Dynasty, born in Khorasan (Iran), with Mohommad Nadir Shah of Afghanistan ?


Its a bit hard to tell which Nadir Shah they're talking about but I think the one they are talking about is the one who invaded from Afghanistan in 1738. Although I'm wrong about him being an Afghan. His sucessor Ahmed Shah Abdali was an Afghan, but Nadir Shah (a turk) controlled the whole of Iran as well (the former Safavid Empire) so its probably acceptable to call him a Persian.
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  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 04:55
Originally posted by Apples n Oranges

So Omar what's your view on this article - "Ancient India" was Pakistan region,not present day India!!!!!!!!!!!!


I still think everyone in this thread is ignoring the fact that they knew about the ganges and therefore knew part of India within its current boundries

What the greeks called India is the subcontinant.  Yes they refered to Pakistan as India, but back then it didn't exist.

The site you got it from is biased and is frankly rubbish as far as i can tell. They took a good name like www.pakhistory.com and used it  for frankly not pakistani history. The maps they've posted are not what the Ancient greeks knew of the Indian subcontinent, only Pakistan. I think the fact that they thought the Ganges was the end of the world is enough to state that the maps are wrong.

Infact, after looking into this site further i can see that its sole purpose is the get one over Indians.

such a shame


Edited by Anujkhamar
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  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 05:21

If Chinese called "Ind", Greeks called India, Persians Hind and laterArabs also Hind, Hidustan by some others, the land is the same Bharat varsha / Barata kanda.

Thinking from today's time and reflecting presentday ideas on the past is historical idiosyncaracy. When John Marshall wrote "5000 years History of Pakistan", historians condemned him, because everybody knew / knows that there was no Pakistan before the creation of "Pakistan" from India or Bharat.

Even the ancient Tamils, very often mentioned or characterized as "Dravidians" opposed "Aryans", record the land where they lived as "Bharat" only. Therefore, that the land where Bharatiyas / modern day Indians lived is Bharat only.

When the Greeks started to know "Ind", it was so big, they referred to it as "India extragangem" and "Idian intra gangem", evidently giving importance to the rive Ganges.

K. V. Ramakrishna Rao.

History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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  Quote Apples n Oranges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 05:24

Originally posted by Zagros

India got its name from the Persians referring to the region as Hind, originating from the name of a geographic feature.

I don't agree Zagros.Persians  refer to India as Hind.Koreans call India---Indo & the Chinese Indu.Do you think the Koreans and the Chinese learnt the name of India through the Persians.

Below is the front cover of Indian Passport.In Hindi it says "Bharat Ganrajya".

So I guess your comment 'India got its name from the Persians referring to the region as Hind', needs some elaboration.

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  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 08:02
<my post edited above, please have a look>

just one thing to add, the source is absolutly pathetic, it just had to be said.


Edited by Anujkhamar
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  Quote Arjun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 09:30

[/QUOTE]

Very interesting article and maps Apples n Oranges. It's of significance in a way that when the ancient Greeks refer to India, they're actually referring to Pakistan. It reminds me of Brahmagupta who was the founder of modern Mathematics in many ways, though he's referred to as "Indian" he's actually Multani from modern day Pakistan.

[/QUOTE]

If Brahmagupta was a Pakistani then what about Millions strong Multani  Hindu community living in India who came to India from "now Paksitan" after partition. And somewhere down the line you will claim the nobel laurate Hargobind Khurana and Dr. Manmohan Singh (The Prime Minister) as Paksitanis since they were also born in the "now Pakistan". There was no Pakistan before 1947. It was formed on the basis of religion and not region. Likewise,will you say, people born between 1947 and 1971 in Bangladesh were pakistanis and their sons Bangladeshis and fathers Indians. This looks absolutely ridiculous.
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  Quote Rajput Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 10:32

Originally posted by AnujKhamar

I still think everyone in this thread is ignoring the fact that they knew about the ganges and therefore knew part of India within its current boundries

Good point and plus it was mentioned by someone earlier on this thread that the Macedonian scouts were par-excellence during their time, cream of the crop so then they must have known about the warriors East of the Beas.

Originally posted by Arjun

If Brahmagupta was a Pakistani then what about Millions strong Multani  Hindu community living in India who came to India from "now Paksitan" after partition.

Even if Brahmagupta was born in Multan it doesn't change the fact that he worked on most of his compilations and literature in Ujjain (Mahdya Pradesh, India) and some of his work was built upon that of his predecessor  Aryabhatta, who was born in Patna, Bihar.

I think the 3 mathematicians who were born in present-day pakistan were Panini, Brahmagupta and the most recent one was a South Indian, Subhramanyan Chandrashekhar Ayyar (1910-1995).



If God did not create the horse, he would not have created the Rajput.
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  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 11:10
Originally posted by Rajput

must have known about the warriors East of the Beas.




thats the thing, they so obviously did. The only people claiming it are the creators of Pakhistory.com, and i've already stated above how i feel about them in my 2 previous posts
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 12:09
Originally posted by Apples n Oranges

Originally posted by Zagros

India got its name from the Persians referring to the region as Hind, originating from the name of a geographic feature.

I don't agree Zagros.Persians  refer to India as Hind.Koreans call India---Indo & the Chinese Indu.Do you think the Koreans and the Chinese learnt the name of India through the Persians.

Below is the front cover of Indian Passport.In Hindi it says "Bharat Ganrajya".

So I guess your comment 'India got its name from the Persians referring to the region as Hind', needs some elaboration.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=India

I hope that's elaboration enough.

 

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 15:58
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by Rajput

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

lol! Nadir Shah of Persia? Nadir Shah of Afghanistan!

Are you mixing the Nadir Shah of the Afsharid Dynasty, born in Khorasan (Iran), with Mohommad Nadir Shah of Afghanistan ?


Its a bit hard to tell which Nadir Shah they're talking about but I think the one they are talking about is the one who invaded from Afghanistan in 1738. Although I'm wrong about him being an Afghan. His sucessor Ahmed Shah Abdali was an Afghan, but Nadir Shah (a turk) controlled the whole of Iran as well (the former Safavid Empire) so its probably acceptable to call him a Persian.

Correction: a Turkoman.

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  Quote Apples n Oranges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 16:13

Originally posted by Zagros

I hope that's elaboration enough.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=India 

I guess that elaborates the Persian and European part.

How would you elaborate 'Indu' or 'Yindu', as the Chinese call India.

PSid the science of Etymology begin in "HIND"?

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 19:12

The region was known locally as Sindh from a Sanskrit root, this region's name was used to refer to the whole of India.

How did the Chinese and Koreans know what to call Iraq? The name obviously came to them from Westerners.

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  Quote Apples n Oranges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 22:21

Originally posted by Zagros

How did the Chinese and Koreans know what to call Iraq? The name obviously came to them from Westerners.

Well, the word 'Iraq' as a name for a nation is of very recent origin.

Iraq

Iraq (ee RAHK) is an Arab republic in southwestern Asia which is slightly larger than California. The country is bordered to the north by Turkey, to the west by Syria and Jordan, to the south by Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and the Persian Gulf, and to the east by Iran.

Ancient Mesopotamia, the "land between the waters," was located between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers of Iraq. It is part of the "Fertile Crescent" and has been called by anthropologists as the "Cradle of Civilization," possibly the site of the Garden of Eden. One of the first civilizations of the world, Sumer, evolved here more than 5,000 years ago. The first Sumerians are believed to have been immigrants from the highlands of Turkey and Iran. As the area developed, migrations and invasions became more common and influenced the cultural make-up of the region. By the mid-24th century B.C., the Sumerians were overrun by the Akkadians and thus began the rising and falling of a long series of empires in the area. With the spread of iron new weapons of war were developed and the Kingdom of Ashur--or Assyrian, as it is usually called-from the northern part of this region began dominating its neighbors. After the Assyrians fell in the seventh century B.C. the Babylonians reestablished their empire in the region and they were followed by the Medes, Persians, Greeks, and Romans.

Following the seventh century A.D., Islam became entrenched in what is now Iraq. Baghdad, the capital of the Abbasid Caliphate (Islamic Empire), was the leading city of the world for five centuries and was the acknowledged leader of the Arab and Muslim world. In 1258 Baghdad was devastated by the Mongols and was later occupied by the Ottoman Turks. After World War I, the Turks were driven from the area by the British. Britain then created a mandate from three former Ottoman provinces and called this new country Al Iraq (the origin), the name formerly applied to only the southern region of the province of Basra. In 1932, Britain gave independence to this mandate and Iraq became a sovereign, independent state. However, Britain still maintained troops in Iraq and greatly influenced the government.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/overview.h tm

Same isn't the case for 'Hind'.I disagree that the Koreans and the Chinese got their name for India from Westerners.

 

 

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 06:55

Why would the Chinese and Koreans know it as India if the Indians themselves didn't call the place India? Only the Sindhis would have called themselves Sindhi, Indians from other regions not... So tell me... How did the Chinese and Koreans learn to call the place India if not from the West?

If you were telling me the ancient Chinese name for India was India, you may be on to something but as it stands you are just making baseless conjecture.

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  Quote Apples n Oranges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 08:11

Originally posted by Zagros

If you were telling me the ancient Chinese name for India was India, you may be on to something but as it stands you are just making baseless conjecture.

Zagros please read my earlier posts in the thread.Both,ancient and modern Chinese names for India are 'Indu'/'Yindu'.In case of Korean language the name is 'Indo'.

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  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 19:40

The name Bharat is specifically mentioned in Manimekhalai:
Padalsar sirappir Bharadhat tongiya (17-57).

Much sung Bharat was famous for maintaining good relations with other
countriesbor with all weaths to be attracted by other countries.

porkottu imayamum podiyum ponre (Puram,2: 25)
Murinjiyur Naganar praises Cheraman Peunchotru Udhiyan Cheraladhan
that he should live long like the golden peaked Himalayas and
podiyam / Podigai Hills.

Vadathu panipadu neduvarai vadakkum
Thenadhu urukezhu kumariyin terkum
Kunadhu karaiporu todukadal kunakkum
Kudathu tonrumudhir bauvattin kudakkum (Puram.6: 1-4).

Karikizhardescribes the land with the biundaries as follows
1. snow clad tall mountains in the north
2. the fearful Kumari in the south
3. shore washing ocean in the east
4. the old ocean on the west

Tenkumari vadaperungal
Kunakuda kadala ellai (Puram,17: 1-2).
Kurungozhiyur Kizhar describes the boundaries of the land as Kumari
in the south, a big rocky (hill) in the north, eastern ocean in the
east and western ocean in the west.

Kumariam peruturai ayirai idaiyadhu manthi
Vadamalai peyarguvin ayin idaiyadhu
Chozha nanndau(Puram. 67: 6-8)
Pisirandaiyar mentions that Chozhanadu was in between Kumari (in the
south) and the Northern mountain (Himalayas).


Vadathisai yadhuve vantoi imayam
Tenthisai yadhuve Aykudi inrayin (Puram.132: 7-8).
If the sky touching Himalayas in the north and theclan of Ay in the
South were not there, the vast world would get destroyed.

pani bauvattuk
kunakuda kadalodu ayidai(Padit.51:14-15)
Kings and the learned coming from different parts of the land, which
is surrounded by conch sounding cold southern ocean, eastern ocean
and western ocean.

Tenkumari vadaperungal
Kunakudakadala ellai (Maduraikkanchi.70-71)
Mangudi Marudhanar describes the boundaries of the land are the
southern Kumari, northern big mountain, eastern ocean and western
ocean.

Note how Kurungozhiyur Kizhar and Mangudi Marudhanar repeat the
sentences exactly same as if they quote.

Thus, it is evident that the land where the ancient Tamils / Hindus / Bharatiyas lived was known as "Bharat" only.

History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 05:53
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

Originally posted by Apples n Oranges

I have learnt most of my history from websites.I'm very ignorant about history of South and South East Asia.Is the following article correct.I would want to know the opinions of learned members who are aware about history of South Asia.

Very interesting article and maps Apples n Oranges. It's of significance in a way that when the ancient Greeks refer to India, they're actually referring to Pakistan. It reminds me of Brahmagupta who was the founder of modern Mathematics in many ways, though he's referred to as "Indian" he's actually Multani from modern day Pakistan.



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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 06:35
East Germany could survive only for a few decades, before the poor cousin got bak to the pavillion. Let's see how long Pakistan takes. It already made a blunder once & had to suffer separation of Bangladesh. Another blunder could see the NWFP going to Afghanistan, their rightful place.
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  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 10:53
The initial article is ridiculous. The greeks of the V century don't know very well the world of course and they knew first the western part of India, along the Indus. But then they expanded their knowledge: the macedonians knew the northern mountains of Himalaya (they called it "Caucasus" again), in the III century BC the greeks invaded India until the low Ganges near actual Bengala, then the greek-roman traders known very well the western and southern coast of India and more or less the eastern coast until the Ganges. In the II century AC the West know with a certain accuracy the so known historical India that is: actual Pakistn, India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka...
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 00:11
Originally posted by Ikki

The initial article is ridiculous. The greeks of the V century don't know very well the world of course and they knew first the western part of India, along the Indus. But then they expanded their knowledge: the macedonians knew the northern mountains of Himalaya (they called it "Caucasus" again), in the III century BC the greeks invaded India until the low Ganges near actual Bengala, then the greek-roman traders known very well the western and southern coast of India and more or less the eastern coast until the Ganges. In the II century AC the West know with a certain accuracy the so known historical India that is: actual Pakistn, India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka...
 
The word India was coined by the Vedic Aryans to describe the Indus River. They called it Sindhu - this then went on to be called "Hindu" by the Persians. When the Greeks heard of it they called it "Ind". It then went onto be known in European languages, Latin etc. It seems likely that under the Archemid Empire, the word India went onto the Ancient Greeks, and Pakistan is what the Ancient Greeks mean by India. The Ancient Greeks thought that beyond the Indus Valley (Pakistan) lay an ocean that wrapped round the world neatly and that the Indus Valley was the end of the world. It's basically Herodotus that referred to modern day Pakistan as "India". Whether areas beyond the Indus Valley were widely known in Europe is not known, but Herodutus did not know of them.  
 
 
 


Edited by TeldeInduz - 17-Sep-2006 at 00:15
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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