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  Quote Apples n Oranges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ancient India was Pakistan
    Posted: 11-Apr-2006 at 10:18

I have learnt most of my history from websites.I'm very ignorant about history of South and South East Asia.Is the following article correct.I would want to know the opinions of learned members who are aware about history of South Asia.

"Ancient India" was Pakistan region, not present-day

India!!!!!!!!!!!

Maps printed after 1947 sometimes show the republic of India not as `India' but as `Bharat'. The word derives from Bharata- varsha, `the land of the Bharatas', these Bharatas being the most prominent and distinguished of the early Vedic clans. By adopting this term the new republic in Delhi could, it was argued, lay claim to a revered arya heritage which was geographically vague enough not to provoke regional jealousies, and doctrinally vague enough not to jeopardize the republic's avowed secularism.

In the first flush of independence `Bharat' would seem preferable, because the word `India' was too redolent of colonial disparagement. It also lacked a respectable indigenous pedigree. For although British claims to have incubated an `India consciousness' were bitterly contested, there was no gainsaying the fact that in the whole colossal corpus of Sanskrit literature nowhere called `India' is ever mentioned; nor does the term occur in Buddhist or Jain texts; nor was it current in any South Asia's numerous other languages.
 
Worse still, if etymologically `India' belonged anywhere, it was not to the republic proclaimed in Delhi by Jawaharlal Nehru but to its rival headed by Mohammed Ali Jinnah in Pakistan.

Partition would have a way of dividing the subcontinent's spoils with scant reference to history. No tussle over the word `India' is reported because Jinnah preferred the newly coined and very Islamic-sounding acronym that is `Pakistan'. Additionally, he was under the impression
that neither state would want to adopt the British title of `India'. He only discovered his mistake after Lord Mountbatten, the last British viceroy, had already acceded to Nehru's demand that his state remain `India'. Jinnah, according to Mountbatten, `was absolutely furious when he found out that they (Nehru and the Congress Party) were going to call themselves India'. The use of the word implied a subcontinental primacy which Pakistan would never accept. It also flew in the face of history, since `India' originally referred exclusively to territory in the vicinity of the Indus river (with which the word is cognate). Hence it was largely outside the republic of India but largely within Pakistan.

The reservations about the word `India', which had convinced Jinnah that neither side would use it, stemmed from its historical currency amongst outsiders, especially outsiders who had designs on the place. Something similar could, of course, be said about terms like `Britian', `Germany' or `America'; when first these words were recorded, all were objects of conquest. But in the case of `India' this demeaning connotation had lasted until modern times. `Hindustan', `India' or `the Indies' (its more generalized derivative) had come, as if by definition, to denote an acquisition rather than a territory. Geographically imprecise, indeed moveable if one took account of all the `Indians' in the Americas, `India' was yet conceptually concrete: it was somewhere to be coveted as an intellectual curiosity, a military pushover and an economic bonanza. To Alexander the Great as to Mahmud of Ghazni, to Timur the Lame as to his Mughal descendents, and to Nadir Shah of Persia as to Robert Clive of Plassey, `India' was a place worth the taking.

The first occurrence of the word sets the trend. It makes its debut in an inscription found at Persepolis in Iran, which was the capital of the Persian or Achaemenid empire of Darius I, he whose far-flung battles included defeat at Marathon by the Athenians in 490 BC. Before this, Darius had evidently enjoyed greater success on his eastern frontier, for the Persepolis inscription, dated to 518 BC, lists amongst his numerous domains that of `Hi(n)du'.

The word for a `river' in Sanskrit is sindhu. Hence sapta-sindhu meant `(the land of) the seven rivers', which was what the Vedic arya called the Panjab. The Indus, to which most of these seven rivers were tributary, was the sindhu par excellence; and in the language of ancient Persian, a near relative of Sanskrit, the initial `s' of a Sanskrit word was invariably rendered as an apirate `h'. Soma, the mysterious hallucinogen distilled, deified and drunk to excess by the Vedic arya, is thus homa or haoma in old Persian; and sindhu is thus Hind(h)u. When, from Persian, the word found its way into Greek, the initial aspirate was dropped, and it started to appear as the route `Ind' (as in `India', `Indus', etc.). In this form it reached Latin and most other European languages. However, in Arabic and related languages it retained the initial `h', giving `Hindustan' as the name by which Turks and Mughals would know India. That word also passed on to Europe to give `Hindu' as the name of the country's indigenous people and of what, by Muslims and Christians alike, was regarded as their infidel religion.

On the strength of a slightly earlier Iranian inscription which makes no mention of Hindu, it is assumed that the region was added to Daruis' Achaemenid empire in or soon after 520 BC. This earlier inscription does, however, refer to `Gadara', which looks like Gandhara, a maha-janapada or `state' mentioned in both Sanskrit and Buddhist sources and located in an arc reaching the western Panjab through the north-west frontier to Kabul and perhaps into southern Afghanistan (where `Kandahar' is the same word). According to Xenophon and Herodotus, Gandhara had been conquered by Cyrus, on of Darius' predecessors. The first Achaemenid or Persian invasion may therefore have taken place as early as the mid-sixth century BC. That it was an invasion, rather than a migration or even perhaps a last belated influx of charioteering arya, seems likely from a reference to Cyrus dying a wound inflicted by the enemy. The enemy were the `Derbikes'; they enjoyed the support of the Hindu people and were supplied by them with war-elephants. In Persian and Greek minds alike, the association of Hindu with elephants was thereafter almost as significant as its connection with the mighty Indus. To Alexander of Macedon, following in the Achaemanids' footsteps two centuries later, the river would be a geographical curiosity, but the elephants were a military obsession.

If Gandhara was already under Achaemenid rule, Darius' Hindu must have lain beyond it, and so to the south or east. Later Iranian records refer to Sindhu, presumably an adoption of the Sanskrit spelling, whence derives the word `Sind', now Pakistan's southernmost province. It seems unlikely though, that Sindhu was Sind in the late sixth century BC, since Darius subsequently found it necessary to send a naval expedition to explore the Indus. Flowing through the middle of Sind, the river would surely have been familiar to any suzerain of the region. More probably, then, Hindu lay east of Gandhara, perhaps as a wedge of territory between it, the jana-padas of eastern Panjab, and deserts of Rajasthan. It thus occupied much of what is now the Panjab province of Pakistan.

Under Xerxes, Darius' successor, troops from what had become the Achaemenids' combined `satrapy' of Gandhara and Hindu reportedly served in the Achaemenid forces. These Indians were mostly archers, although cavalry and chariots are also mentioned; they fought as far as eatern Europe; and some were present at the Persians' victory over Leonidas and his Spartans at Thermopylae, and then at the decisive defeat by the Greeks at Plataea. Through these and other less fraught contacts between Greeks ad Persians, Greek writers like Herodotus gleaned some idea of `India'. Compared to the intervening lands of
Anatolia and Iran, it appeared a veritable paradise of exotic plenty. Herodotus told of an immense population and the richest soil imaginable from which kindly ants, smaller than dogs but bigger than foxes, threw up hillocks of pure gold-dust. The ants may have intrigued entomologists, but the gold was registered in political circles. With rivers to rival the Nile and behemoths from which to give battle, it was clearly a land of fantasy as well as wealth.

Herodotus, of course, knew only of the Indus region, and that by hearsay. Hence he did not report that the land of Hindu was of sensational extent, nor did he deny the popular belief that beyond its furthest desert, where in reality the Gangetic plain interminably spreads, lay the great ocean which supposedly encircled the world; Hindu or `India' (but in fact Pakistan) was therefore believed to be the end of terra firma, a worthy culmination to any emperor's ambitions as well as a fabulous addition to his portfolio of conquests. In abbreviated form, Herodotus' History circulated widely. A hundred years after his death it was still avidly read by northern Greeks in Macedonia, where a teenage Alexander `knew it well enough to quote and follow its stories'.

The World according to ancient Greeks, includes Pakistan



< = src="http://www.pakhistory.com/adserv/adx.js" =text/> < = =text/> < = src="http://www.pakhistory.com/adserv/adjs.php?n=473799348&clientid=3&exclude=,&referer=http%3A//www.pakhistory.com/historicals.php" =text/>

http://www.pakhistory.com/index.php


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  Quote Rajput Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2006 at 12:28

Originally posted by Apples n Oranges

I have learnt most of my history from websites.I'm very ignorant about history of South and South East Asia. Is the following article correct.I would want to know the opinions of learned members who are aware about history of South Asia.

Present day Pakistan was the outskirts of Ancient India.  Ancient India had two major empires, the Gupta Empire and Maurya Empire and both ruled from centers in the heart of present day India:  Pataliputra and Ayodhya.  Pakistan area were mostly tributary states of the much more powerful Ancient Indian Empires.

 



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  Quote AlokaParyetra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2006 at 17:51

From what i got from the article, Pakistan should be named India instead because of a eurocentric view of what is and what is not considered part of the world.

Personally, i could care less what the greeks thought was part of the world, what the persians called us, or what the british thought we should be named, or how far Alexander went. India, Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh, etc., should be interpreted according to their history, not european.

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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2006 at 11:28
Originally posted by Apples n Oranges

I have learnt most of my history from websites.I'm very ignorant about history of South and South East Asia.Is the following article correct.I would want to know the opinions of learned members who are aware about history of South Asia.

Very interesting article and maps Apples n Oranges. It's of significance in a way that when the ancient Greeks refer to India, they're actually referring to Pakistan. It reminds me of Brahmagupta who was the founder of modern Mathematics in many ways, though he's referred to as "Indian" he's actually Multani from modern day Pakistan.



Edited by TeldeInduz
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  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2006 at 11:44
Well Telde it all comes back as to what exactly you define as Indian. Historically speaking people tend the refer someone from the subcontinant as Indian, as they are from the Indian subcontinant (similar to calling a British guy European). By stroke of luck (and some political turmoil too) there is a country called India in the Indian subcontinent.
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2006 at 12:10
I dont deny the existence of India/Bharat/Hindustan, but I'm saying that when the ancient Greeks refer to ancient India they are referring to Pakistan.
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2006 at 12:59
well yes and no. they thought the end of the world was at the ganges, so it was partly in mordern India. But i get what your saying and mostly agree.
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  Quote Rajput Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2006 at 13:14

When Alexander marched on Paurava he is said to have been invited by Omphis (Ambhi), ruler of Taxila, who was an enemy of Purushotum (Porus).

For some reason there was a presumption amongst the Greeks that the people east of Porus' kingdom (East of Sutluj River), Magadha were far more fierce than the soldiers of Porus whom the Greeks had fought  thus the Macedonians never ventured East of the Sutluj and into the Gangetic Valley.



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  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2006 at 15:41
Originally posted by Rajput

 into the Gangetic Valley.



....which is in India.

One thing i just realised is the Greeks had knowledge of the Ganges, as they thought it was the end of the world, leading back into the nile. So why isn't it in the maps above?
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  Quote Apples n Oranges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2006 at 16:13

Originally posted by TeldeInduz

Very interesting article and maps Apples n Oranges. It's of significance in a way that when the ancient Greeks refer to India, they're actually referring to Pakistan. It reminds me of Brahmagupta who was the founder of modern Mathematics in many ways, though he's referred to as "Indian" he's actually Multani from modern day Pakistan.

Thanx for your reply TeldeInduz.What I really want to know is 'Ancient India was Pakistan region'--- is this statement correct in its entirety.

Thanx for letting me know the Greek point of view,which is very clear from the article.As far as I know ancient Greeks were very learned and a Greek historian wrote it down that Indian men mounted their women from the back like horses and had black semen unlike Greeks.I would request Greek members to ratify my claim.I have forgotten the name of that learned historian.I guess it's not bad to refresh lost learning.

Thanx for the information on Brahmagupta.



Edited by Apples n Oranges
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2006 at 16:42
Originally posted by Apples n Oranges

Originally posted by TeldeInduz

Very interesting article and maps Apples n Oranges. It's of significance in a way that when the ancient Greeks refer to India, they're actually referring to Pakistan. It reminds me of Brahmagupta who was the founder of modern Mathematics in many ways, though he's referred to as "Indian" he's actually Multani from modern day Pakistan.

Thanx for your reply TeldeInduz.What I really want to know is 'Ancient India was Pakistan region'--- is this statement correct in its entirety.

Thanx for letting me know the Greek point of view,which is very clear from the article.As far as I know ancient Greeks were very learned and a Greek historian wrote it down that Indian men mounted their women from the back like horses and had black semen unlike Greeks.I would request Greek members to ratify my claim.I have forgotten the name of that learned historian.I guess it's not bad to refresh lost learning.

Thanx for the information on Brahmagupta.

Yeah, Herodotus said that. You can read about it here. 

The outside world knew ancient India only by ancient Sindh and the adjoining coastal areas. And it had the strangest notions about the people here.

Herodotus, the great Greek historian, wrote: ``All the Indian tribes I have mentioned copulate in the open like cattle; their skins are all of the same colour, much like the Ethiopians. Their semen is not white like other people's, but black like their own skin. The same peculiarity is to be found in the Ethiopians. Their country is a long way from Persia towards the south and they were never subject to Darius.''

Strabo,another Greek historian, wrote: ``Indians had never been invaded and conquered by a foreign power.'' lt is good to hear great ancient historians confirm that India had till then never been conquered by a foreign power. As for copulation in the open, Herodotus was obviously referring to prehistoric times when men were yet to build houses. Why, even in Elizabethan England, Shakespeare tells us, many Englishmen loved to romance in ``fields of rye''.

But the ``black semen'' story reminds us. When the Chinese in the past century heard the Englishmen say that the heart was on the left, they were sure their own hearts must be on the right --- since they were so very different from the British!

http://yangtze.cs.uiuc.edu/~jamali/sindh/story/node5.html 

- Mohajendra Period by the sounds of it.



Edited by TeldeInduz
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  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2006 at 16:45
Well i can check for you but im 75% certain it aint black
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  Quote Rajput Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2006 at 19:36

 lol anuj



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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2006 at 19:46

If they were referring to pakistan, then they would have said pakistan, the fact is, that the polity of pakistan did not exist at that time and only came into being 59 years ago.

Britain got its name from the Romans, it originated from one tribe.  India got its name from the Persians referring to the region as Hind, originating from the name of a geographic feature.

It is only correct to say that what the Greeks referred to as India, now lies in the modern nation of Pakistan.

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  Quote Apples n Oranges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2006 at 19:47
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

Yeah, Herodotus said that. You can read about it here. 

The outside world knew ancient India only by ancient Sindh and the adjoining coastal areas. And it had the strangest notions about the people here.

I think it would be better if 'The Outside World' is replaced by 'Ancient Greeks'.

It's like arguing, 'The Outside World' in modern history =The United States of America.

 

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  Quote Rajput Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2006 at 20:06

Originally posted by Apples n Oranges

I think it would be better if 'The Outside World' is replaced by 'Ancient Greeks'.

Actually that is a good point becauseo from 399-412 AD one Buddhist scholar from China by the name of Fa-Hien recorded his travels across the Himalayas into present day India. He has recorded the names of various Indian dynasties in his works through which I believe one can truly appreciate the might of the Indian Kingdoms, strongest of which was the middle kingdom located in Central India and Fa-Hien describes its influences (language, clothes etc.) on the peoples of Ancient Northern India.

A Record of Buddhistic Kingdoms by James Legge, Paragon Book Reprint Corp. 1965



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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2006 at 20:22
acronym that is `Pakistan'

Pakistan is not an acronym although one has been made up for it. Pakistan comes from two words, pak (pure) and stan (land).

it was somewhere to be coveted as an intellectual curiosity, a military pushover and an economic bonanza. To Alexander the Great as to Mahmud of Ghazni, to Timur the Lame as to his Mughal descendents, and to Nadir Shah of Persia as to Robert Clive of Plassey, `India' was a place worth the taking.

lol! Nadir Shah of Persia? Nadir Shah of Afghanistan!

Originally posted by AlokaParyeta

From what i got from the article, Pakistan should be named India instead because of a eurocentric view of what is and what is not considered part of the world.

Personally, i could care less what the greeks thought was part of the world, what the persians called us, or what the british thought we should be named, or how far Alexander went. India, Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh, etc., should be interpreted according to their history, not european.

Well said.

Originally posted by Rajput


For some reason there was a presumption amongst the Greeks that the people east of Porus' kingdom (East of Sutluj River), Magadha were far more fierce than the soldiers of Porus whom the Greeks had fought  thus the Macedonians never ventured East of the Sutluj and into the Gangetic Valley.

I thought Siqunder was capturing the Persian Empire, and after his long and extensive campaign his soldigers wished for some rest.

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  Quote Apples n Oranges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2006 at 20:29
So Omar what's your view on this article - "Ancient India" was Pakistan region,not present day India!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2006 at 20:36

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim


lol! Nadir Shah of Persia? Nadir Shah of Afghanistan!

Try Nader Shah of Iran..

Courtesy of LoA:



Obverse

In Farsi reads: " sekkeh bar zar kard nam-e saltanat-ra dar jahan/Nader-e Iran-zamin o Khorasan-e Giti setan" . meaning Nadir of the land of Iran and who seizes the world/coin in gold minted in the name of his kingdom in the world. Mint also on obverse.

Reverse

 

Chornogram for year 1148 reads in abjad letters: in the year, what has happened is good , the total value of letters comes to 1148 which was the year that Nadir became the king, however this jolus type for Nadir was minted from 1148 to 1151.

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  Quote Rajput Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2006 at 21:36

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

lol! Nadir Shah of Persia? Nadir Shah of Afghanistan!

Are you mixing the Nadir Shah of the Afsharid Dynasty, born in Khorasan (Iran), with Mohommad Nadir Shah of Afghanistan ?

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

I thought Siqunder was capturing the Persian Empire, and after his long and extensive campaign his soldigers wished for some rest.

What does the Persian bit have to do with anything? There was a gap of 4 years between the whole Persian bit and Porus during which Omphis invited Alexander to Taxila giving him the status of King of Taxila.  Instead of crossing the Beas he chose to conquer south through Mallava territory.



If God did not create the horse, he would not have created the Rajput.
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