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The Aryan Problem
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K. V. Ramakrishna Rao View Drop Down
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Posts: 287 		  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Aryan Problem
    Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 08:14

Ashwinikumar Iyer.

Instead of secondary evidences, why can't you rely upon "Iraiyanar Agapporul Urai" and interpret?
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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ASHWINKUMARIYER View Drop Down
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Posts: 0 		  Quote ASHWINKUMARIYER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 07:40
Dear Shri Rao,
 
I need some more time to go through the Iraiyanar Agapporul Urai and interpret to what we need.
 
I would probably starta sepearate thread for us to discuss about this, since it might deviate from the existing topic of "Aryan Problem".
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Posts: 117 		  Quote Kashmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2007 at 20:49
aryans existed. most of the world scholars beleive in their existense. The only problem is we dont know where were they from. Most people say that present day Iran was there homeland and from there they migrated to different parts of the world from there
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K. V. Ramakrishna Rao View Drop Down
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Posts: 287 		  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 21:26

In the case of Aryan race, Max Mueller confessed,

 

I have declared again and again that if I say Aryan, I mean neither blood nor bones,, nor hair, nor skull, I mean simply those who speak an Aryan languageTo me an ethnologist who speaks of Aryan race, Aryan blood, Aryan eyes and hair, as great sinner as a linguist who speaks of a dolicocephalic dictionary or brachycephalic grammar.
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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AlokaParyetra View Drop Down
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Posts: 140 		  Quote AlokaParyetra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 22:12
In India, the word Aryan used in ancient literature has no indication of race.

While Iranian texts may quote kings and other claiming "Aryan lineage," this should NOT be confused with any usage of the word Aryan in Indian texts.

Aryan, in South Asia, means but one thing: nobleman.

I think people place too much emphasis on the fact that the word Aryan in found both in Iranic and Indian texts. Avesten and Vedic Sanskrit are NOT the same language, and words found in both does NOT mean they have the same meaning. There are no Vedic texts that point to the word Aryan having any sort of racial connotation. So, why assume such?
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Posts: 28 		  Quote mughal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 16:39
but there are many scholars who belive there were aryans, maybe not in india, but definatly in iran or centeral asia
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K. V. Ramakrishna Rao View Drop Down
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Posts: 287 		  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2007 at 20:06

Note, even you record with reservation that ".....there are many scholsars who believe...". Why such "many scholars" should always "believe" instead of assert? Again you carefully write, such "many scholars belive" that "there were aryans" so now they believe,"there are no aryans"? You add "may be not in india, but defintely in iran or central asia". So where is definiteness? 

 
Race as perceived, conceived and propagated as

N     exclusive royalty or nobility for a religion,

N     exclusivist ideology for a language,

N     parochial claim for superiority, and

N     above all We are the only pure, chosen people on the earth etc., is a myth.

There are sites on it: http://sitesled.com/members/racialreality/indo_europeans.html,  with connected other sites (just for example). The race scholars posed as anthropologists have brought out hypotheses not with any definite finality.

Therefore, kindly quote the authors specifically, so that their results can be discussed.
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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mughal View Drop Down
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Posts: 28 		  Quote mughal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2007 at 13:27
ok there are many scholars who assert that there were aryans. scholars from England to all the way to iran beleive in the aryans.
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Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2007 at 21:46
It isn't that aryans don't exist (they do hence the word Iran), its that they cannot really be considered a race. It is better to think of them as a language group.
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K. V. Ramakrishna Rao View Drop Down
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Posts: 287 		  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2007 at 08:04

 

Anybody can be Aryan, because, it has connotation of respectable person, head, guru, teacher and so not only in Sanskrit, but also in Tamil as pointed out.

 

Therefore, there is nothing surprising that Iranians want to call them Aryans.

 

But, there is danger, if somebody goes on calling one group Aryan like Hitler.

 

Here only, the racial myth rises its ugly head coolly forgetting or suppressing the historical discussion.
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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mughal View Drop Down
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Posts: 28 		  Quote mughal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2007 at 11:18
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

It isn't that aryans don't exist (they do hence the word Iran), its that they cannot really be considered a race. It is better to think of them as a language group.
 
but for a language to be formed, their must the orginal people who spoke it right? i mean the language can't come out of thin air.
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ASHWINKUMARIYER View Drop Down
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Posts: 0 		  Quote ASHWINKUMARIYER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2007 at 09:30
Dear Mughal,
 
Fine. In that case, can you please tell whether Tamil is a launguage or a race? For your kind information, every political party calls Tamil a race and what do you think is the answer based on your theory? Based on your theory, a group of people who originated or speak a similar landuage form a race.
 
However, I beg to differ. if that is the case India should be having a few hundreds of races currently. There are fine differences between language similarities, race, nationality, caste and creed. If we do not understand the differences clearly, we will mess up with history, as did many western historians with Indian History.
Dharmo Rakshatihi Rakshataha
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pathan View Drop Down
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Posts: 0 		  Quote pathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2007 at 12:58

Aryans today are an extinct race. Some people in Iran might still have pure Aryan blood but thats it i think.



Edited by pathan - 21-Apr-2007 at 13:04
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Posts: 28 		  Quote mughal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2007 at 13:02
look the reason i say aryan had to be a race is because aryan languages are spoken from Europe all the way east to North india. Their had to be orginal speakers of this commen language. i never said that india is made of different races, Today india is a mixture of countless different people who invaded specially North india, also many many North indians still have Dravidian blood. No one can today claim to be a aryan even in places like Iran because its so mixed now. However South india for the large part was untouched by invaders from the west so south india is still preety much Drvaidian, If tamil were the orginal speakers of the Dravdian language group then indeed they can claim to the orginal people or race in your terms
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Azat View Drop Down
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Posts: 110 		  Quote Azat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 12:01
You are confusing here Mr.Rao .
 
Aryans means a a group of people who followed vedic religion intially and called themselves Aryans as such. they were Scythian Median Iranian Armenian Parthian but not Tamilian if you want to convey so
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AlokaParyetra View Drop Down
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Posts: 140 		  Quote AlokaParyetra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 12:44
BUT, if Aryan means a group of people who followed the vedic religion and called themselves Aryan, then why aren't Tamil speakers who did the same considered Aryan?

The moment you say they were "Scythian Median Iranian Armenian Parthian", you have blurred the lines between the linguistic definition of Aryan, with a dead racial one.

You can say that Indo-Europeans were "Scythian Median Iranian Armenian Parthian", but to say Aryans are this race or that race, IMO, would be incorrect.

Edited by AlokaParyetra - 22-Apr-2007 at 12:45
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Azat View Drop Down
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Posts: 110 		  Quote Azat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 13:16
Originally posted by AlokaParyetra

BUT, if Aryan means a group of people who followed the vedic religion and called themselves Aryan, then why aren't Tamil speakers who did the same considered Aryan?

The moment you say they were "Scythian Median Iranian Armenian Parthian", you have blurred the lines between the linguistic definition of Aryan, with a dead racial one.

You can say that Indo-Europeans were "Scythian Median Iranian Armenian Parthian", but to say Aryans are this race or that race, IMO, would be incorrect.
 
 
Alok
 
Have any of Tamil speaking group ever called itself  Aryan in any historical record anywhere or Have these vedic texts left any doubt what were the southernmost boundary of aryavarta than where is the need to create an ambiguity which never existed.
 
Second all these groups called them aryan at some point of time here or there and folowed vedic religion at some poit of time.
 
If you go through vedic texts aryans were not just no face group ,they had Turvashu  (turanian ,scythian )Yadu (again scythian ,gujjar jats rajputs having yadu ancesstry)Druyu (druids )Anus (iranian )Puru (por or pawar tribes )where Tamilian comes in to this picture?
 
Secondly vedic texts too have explained other non aryan group like dasa so things are very clear in this regard .
 
 
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AlokaParyetra View Drop Down
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Posts: 140 		  Quote AlokaParyetra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 13:42
Yes, the Tamil word for Aryan is Ariyar.

And, according to texts like the Ramayanam, Aryan were found all over India up to Sri Lanka. Ravana, after all, was an Aryan, and ruled over Aryans in Sri Lanka.

One of the Mahajanapadas, Assaka, is clearly a southern state.

In the Mahabharata, the Yadavas are ruled by Krishna, who is of black skin, and has many "Dravidian" features. He too, is one of the greatest Aryans.

Also, the races you say found in vedic texts are mistranslated. You are using false congnates, like Druyu for Druids and Anus for Iranian.

And again, the word Aryan is never used in any racial sense in the Vedas nor the Epics. The word, in sanskrit, means nobility.
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pathan View Drop Down
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Posts: 0 		  Quote pathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 14:22

i agree with azat on this one, The word aryan clearly has its roots in present day iran and iran is the base of aryans. Now i am not sure what indians might have used the aryan for, maybe in india it means noble, wise etc.... but orginally aryans were a people who ruled iran.
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AlokaParyetra View Drop Down
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Posts: 140 		  Quote AlokaParyetra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 15:08
Well, when both Indian and Iranian texts used the word Aryan, and both of are same age, how can you say the word is of one origin and not the other?

And the racial usage of Airyan in Iranian texts was not adopted till later. The oldest verses of the Avesta (those attributed to Zoroaster) for example, make no mention of Airya being a race, but rather a social status.

And Aryan is the romanization of the sanskrit word. Airya is the romanization of the Persian word. For example, Aryavarta is sanskrit for "abode of Aryans," as opposed to "Airyashayana," which is persian.
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