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U.S. Deserter tells of MORE Atrocities
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    Posted: 03-Apr-2006 at 14:46
Originally posted by prsn41ife

thanks mr. george bush for taking a sh*t on our country!

How is the USA ever going to recover from this kind of stuff. now no one sees us a liberators, they only see us as imperialists.



Well, I think the American public is pretty turned off to the whole idea of military actions abroad now. The logical thing to do would be to sit back, deal with domestic issues, and let violence spin out of control in other regions of the world, and see how the world feels about US "imperialist" forces being deployed.

Personally, I'd like to see the US pull all of it's peacekeeping forces from around the world and see who steps up to take America's place.


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Posts: 2656 		  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2006 at 15:00

Originally posted by Maju



Have you ever played a boardgame called Republic of Rome? It's an intrigue and diplomacy game whose more notable characteristic is that it allowed for a collective defeat of all players if Rome succumbed. You just can't allow what keeps you alive to fall.

I don't base my diplomatic views on board games.

Originally posted by Maju

And the "Rome" of this our reality isn't just your or my country: it is the whole planet. The challenge this time can't be faced with missiles but must be faced with intelligence and cooperation. You can waste all the time you want fighting for this oilfield or that atoll that if the planet breaks down, everybody loses.

Which is the Pentagon's plan for such an eventuality?

God, that was so sappy you've made my computer sticky.  Have I ever said I wanted to destroy the world?  No, of course not.  I've never said I wanted to use weapons of mass destruction just for the hell of it.  Tell me how violence suddenly became outdated, which point of no return did we pass?  I assume you're also talking about Global Warming or some other Malthusian doomsday prophecy, which you have no concrete evidence for and people like you have predicted since the industrial revolution.  So tell me how violence can now not solve any problem, and how cooperation is needed for every problem.

And yes, I agree there are global problems, which you see countries cooperate on, but why does that have to make global cooperation trump national competition and vital interests all the time.  Your whole philosophy is based on taking a few trends and taking them to illogical conclusions to arrive at the view that your way is the only way to save humanity from itself.

I sometimes think people like you don't even believe in such nonsense yourself and it's just a clever way to try to convince people that we all have to now live like hippies.

I am not fooled.
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Posts: 2656 		  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2006 at 15:02

Originally posted by Illuminati

Personally, I'd like to see the US pull all of it's peacekeeping forces from around the world and see who steps up to take America's place.

Maybe some members of this forum could join the UN to help, and practice what they preach.
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UN is US.  Well, not quite, more like UN is Rockefeller/J.P. Morgan.  Without them we wouldn't even need 'Peacekeeping Force'.
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This is what I preach, and what I, as a person practise, I apply it to my world view too:

Violence is a last resort only to be used in self defense.

I view bullies, people who impose their views and ways on others for personal gain or otherwise, with contempt and have utter disdain for them.



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Posts: 949 		  Quote Illuminati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2006 at 15:24
Originally posted by King Kang of Mu

Illuminati wrote


I don't see your point. I never referred to the Iraq war as a "real war." IN my mind, a real war is along the lines of world war 2.  Zagros stated that the US would cry foul when it's on the recieving end of a real war. Myself and Genghis pointed out that in a real war, where the fate of nations, and millions of lives hang in the balance, that it would be a completely different situation than the Iraq war, because after all, when your nation and people on the threat of being wiped out or conquered, certain humane concerns go right out of the window. Not to mention, your people are united, unlike in the Vietnam war and the current war. It's not evil, it's the reality of total war, and one look at world war 1 and 2 proves it.

I think the real evil is your ignorance to history and inability to comprehend what others are saying.

Of couese you don't see my point because you don't see your own point.  Millions of people did die in Vietnam and Iraq.  Yes, any 'humane concerns' did went out the window, and that itself doesn't sound evil to you?

According to your logic, because it is the reality of total war, it is excused from being Evil?  Don't you think you sound little too much like Hitler or Stalin?  Maybe World War I & II  sounded 'Real Wars' to you because we were fighting white people?  Unless you are killing whitie, it doesn't even feel like a war, does it to you?  Just another extermination.....

Ignorance to history and inability to comprehend what yourself is saying is truly evil.



Where do you get your information? We only fought white people in WW1 and 2??
THe Japanese weren't considered white people. Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

Your ignorance as to what I am saying is still profound. I didn't say tactics used in total war were good tactics, merely that they are what is to be expected. Every major war has seen the use of these tactics. Even with your naive understanding of history, you can't ignore that. If you don't think those things will happen, then you're a fool living in a fantasy world.

If you invade someone and put in peril their people, then you had better expect to face the full brunt of their retaliation whether or not their tactics are moral or not.

If they were only used a few times in history, then they'd be unexpected and shocking. But, since they've been used in every major war, while still tasteless, they should not be unexpected.

I'm not even sure how you got onto this naive high-minded rant. All that was discussed was how a total war legitimizes the use of certain tactics that you otherwards wouldn't use. How is that not the truth? No one said that it is morally right. But, it is the truth. We don't live in some liberal fantasy world.

If your country and people were on the verge of defeat would you be too concerned about living up to the Geneva convention? Or would you be more concerned with doing whatever is necessary to save your country and people? I can't think of any realist who would say that they would completely abide by the Geneva convention in that situation.

you can compare people to Hitler all you want, but you should first educate yourself as to the reality of war.


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Posts: 949 		  Quote Illuminati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2006 at 15:32
Originally posted by King Kang of Mu

UN is US.  Well, not quite, more like UN is Rockefeller/J.P. Morgan.  Without them we wouldn't even need 'Peacekeeping Force'.


The UN is a corrupt international organization. It only conducts military operations when enough of it's member countries feel that their interests are at stake, regardless of how many thousands have been massacred. Note: Rwanda and Darfur.


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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2006 at 16:45
Originally posted by Genghis

Originally posted by Maju



Have you ever played a boardgame called Republic of Rome? It's an intrigue and diplomacy game whose more notable characteristic is that it allowed for a collective defeat of all players if Rome succumbed. You just can't allow what keeps you alive to fall.

I don't base my diplomatic views on board games.

I don't either (though good games may be very enjoyable and instructive), it was just an illustrative example: if the ship sinks, we all drown.



Originally posted by Maju

And the "Rome" of this our reality isn't just your or my country: it is the whole planet. The challenge this time can't be faced with missiles but must be faced with intelligence and cooperation. You can waste all the time you want fighting for this oilfield or that atoll that if the planet breaks down, everybody loses.

Which is the Pentagon's plan for such an eventuality?

God, that was so sappy you've made my computer sticky.  Have I ever said I wanted to destroy the world?  No, of course not.  I've never said I wanted to use weapons of mass destruction just for the hell of it.  Tell me how violence suddenly became outdated, which point of no return did we pass?  I assume you're also talking about Global Warming or some other Malthusian doomsday prophecy, which you have no concrete evidence for and people like you have predicted since the industrial revolution.  So tell me how violence can now not solve any problem, and how cooperation is needed for every problem.

And yes, I agree there are global problems, which you see countries cooperate on, but why does that have to make global cooperation trump national competition and vital interests all the time.  Your whole philosophy is based on taking a few trends and taking them to illogical conclusions to arrive at the view that your way is the only way to save humanity from itself.

I sometimes think people like you don't even believe in such nonsense yourself and it's just a clever way to try to convince people that we all have to now live like hippies.

I am not fooled.



It's no nonsense: it's the only alternative to live like zombies, or ants, or whatever robotic/slavish image you may prefer.

But understanding and cooperation is also nowadays the only alternative to merely achieve survival. You may think what you wish but I'm pretty sure that some limit has been reached already and major problems are unavoidable - but maybe there's still a chance for survival.

It's the hugest challenge humankind has ever confronted. And it is a challenge that can only be overcome with planetary cooperation of some sort.

Even an empire is a cooperative structure of some sort - but not the only possible one. In fact, I would say it is plainly impossible in real world conditions (unlike in games). So, as empire is impossible (and probably undesirable too), cooperation is the only possibility out of the multiple ways to self-destruction.

Remember that war is just a a mean to politics. And politics is the art of possibility. And, globally speaking, only one possibility is realistic: cooperation. What sort?

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Posts: 2656 		  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2006 at 17:17

Originally posted by Maju

But understanding and cooperation is also nowadays the only alternative to merely achieve survival.

Prove it, your entire argument rests on "because I say it is".



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Posts: 2656 		  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2006 at 17:34

Originally posted by King Kang of Mu

UN is US.  Well, not quite, more like UN is Rockefeller/J.P. Morgan.  Without them we wouldn't even need 'Peacekeeping Force'.

Then why did the UN oppose us viciously about going into Iraq, and why was it conspiring with an American enemy with the oil for food program?
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Posts: 4221 		  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2006 at 17:59
Originally posted by Genghis

Originally posted by King Kang of Mu

UN is US.  Well, not quite, more like UN is Rockefeller/J.P. Morgan.  Without them we wouldn't even need 'Peacekeeping Force'.

Then why did the UN oppose us viciously about going into Iraq, and why was it conspiring with an American enemy with the oil for food program?

The UN is US money which is another sore point.  We pay numbskulls to work against our interests.

 
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Originally posted by Genghis

Originally posted by Maju

But understanding and cooperation is also nowadays the only alternative to merely achieve survival.


Prove it, your entire argument rests on "because I say it is".



All violence is used to promote co-operation, whether willing or not. Even the violence of domestic authority like the police is used to promote co-operation of the citizenry.

Co-operation that can be achieved without violence, is, of course, cheaper. Nations which can elicit the co-operation of their citizens with minimal use of violence are, in general, far more prosperous than those who must use massive amounts of violence to achieve co-operation. The same principles apply on the international level: you're still just talking about masses of individuals, either way.
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Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Originally posted by Genghis

Originally posted by King Kang of Mu

UN is US.  Well, not quite, more like UN is Rockefeller/J.P. Morgan.  Without them we wouldn't even need 'Peacekeeping Force'.

Then why did the UN oppose us viciously about going into Iraq, and why was it conspiring with an American enemy with the oil for food program?

The UN is US money which is another sore point.  We pay numbskulls to work against our interests.

 

Once again the Globalists are not patriots to any nation no matter which country they are born or live in.  Neither is US government.  Do not confuse your country with the people in the current government.  No one cares about your way of life except me.   
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Posts: 1023 		  Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2006 at 18:55
Originally posted by Illuminati

Originally posted by Zagros

In flouting the various and many war and human rights conventions as the US has, it will be rich when all of the fascist nationalist types in the US government and public cry foul when they get into a real war and their boys are on the receiving end.

 



nonsense. Real wars legitimize the use of tactics that otherwise would not be considered. Uniting the American people completely against some foreign force is very dangerous for that foreign force. Also, real wars don't ahve to include occupation. We can just bomb the hell out of them, and leave them in the stone age until they surrender on their own. That in the end, is a real war.

You are right I did assume that you prefer 'Real Wars' over 'non-Real Wars'.  No matter how much you try to legitimize any tactics or any 'Real Wars' for that matter, there is juat no better way to kill people, is there?

I know you feel too weak and inadequate to do nothing but embrace this historical 'fact' of 'reality of total war', but the hiatory of human civilizations did not evolve in that train of thought, well not since your Stone Age.  I know I used to think like you, unable to think for myself, then my balls dropped.  You should try it.

Btw, about Japanese, during South African Apartheid, they did consider Japanese as Honorary Whites.  They weren't gonna say no to Yen, even if it didn't come from a whitie.   Don't believe me? Just ask the Trilateral Commision.  What Illuminati, you didn't go to last meeting?

But that is in retrospective and you are right Japanese were not Whites, especially back in WWII.  Perhaps that is why we didn't nuke Germany but Japan. 

See, if you are trying to tell me that US foreign and millitary policies is not consist of racist principles, I don't need to tell you who is really being naive.   

  
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Originally posted by edgewaters

Originally posted by Genghis

Originally posted by Maju

But understanding and cooperation is also nowadays the only alternative to merely achieve survival.


Prove it, your entire argument rests on "because I say it is".



All violence is used to promote co-operation, whether willing or not. Even the violence of domestic authority like the police is used to promote co-operation of the citizenry.

Co-operation that can be achieved without violence, is, of course, cheaper. Nations which can elicit the co-operation of their citizens with minimal use of violence are, in general, far more prosperous than those who must use massive amounts of violence to achieve co-operation. The same principles apply on the international level: you're still just talking about masses of individuals, either way.

 

I'd beg to differ; if we had co-operated with the Germans in WWII, we would have had a problem.  Co-operation with the German people and the Nazis could ONLY be achieved through violence.  Sitting outside and looking and them does nothing at all.  And what peaceful actions could be taken?  Not many are very logical or useful.
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Posts: 1023 		  Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2006 at 18:56

Originally posted by Illuminati

Originally posted by King Kang of Mu

UN is US.  Well, not quite, more like UN is Rockefeller/J.P. Morgan.  Without them we wouldn't even need 'Peacekeeping Force'.


The UN is a corrupt international organization. It only conducts military operations when enough of it's member countries feel that their interests are at stake, regardless of how many thousands have been massacred. Note: Rwanda and Darfur.

Well, there is something we both can agree......  Thank you, Lord..... 



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Originally posted by King Kang of Mu

Originally posted by Illuminati

Originally posted by Zagros

In flouting the various and many war and human rights conventions as the US has, it will be rich when all of the fascist nationalist types in the US government and public cry foul when they get into a real war and their boys are on the receiving end.

 



nonsense. Real wars legitimize the use of tactics that otherwise would not be considered. Uniting the American people completely against some foreign force is very dangerous for that foreign force. Also, real wars don't ahve to include occupation. We can just bomb the hell out of them, and leave them in the stone age until they surrender on their own. That in the end, is a real war.

You are right I did assume that you prefer 'Real Wars' over 'non-Real Wars'.  No matter how much you try to legitimize any tactics or any 'Real Wars' for that matter, there is juat no better way to kill people, is there?

I know you feel too weak and inadequate to do nothing but embrace this historical 'fact' of 'reality of total war', but the hiatory of human civilizations did not evolve in that train of thought, well not since your Stone Age.  I know I used to think like you, unable to think for myself, then my balls dropped.  You should try it.

Btw, about Japanese, during South African Apartheid, they did consider Japanese as Honorary Whites.  They weren't gonna say no to Yen, even if it didn't come from a whitie.   Don't believe me? Just ask the Trilateral Commision.  What Illuminati, you didn't go to last meeting?

But that is in retrospective and you are right Japanese were not Whites, especially back in WWII.  Perhaps that is why we didn't nuke Germany but Japan. 

See, if you are trying to tell me that US foreign and millitary policies is not consist of racist principles, I don't need to tell you who is really being naive.   

  



you still fail to miss any points. This has nothing to do with US foreign policy or Apartheid. You stated that we only fought whites in WW2. We did not. You were dead wrong. You're trying to swtich the subject and argue about racism which has nothing to do with any of this. You just don't have anywhere to go in your argument.

I know you feel too weak and inadequate to do nothing but embrace this historical 'fact' of 'reality of total war', but the hiatory of human civilizations did not evolve in that train of thought, well not since your Stone Age.  I know I used to think like you, unable to think for myself, then my balls dropped.  You should try it.

So, every war hasn't had atrocities? Are you denying this? I also like you short-witted insults. They are the mark of the ignorant, and a cheap way of trying to change the subject. I said you were being ignorant and didn't ahve any knowledge of the issue. You didn't refute that, and instead you made immature sexual statements. Not to mention stating that I was like Hitler. I'm failing to see where I said the holocaust, or invading everyone was okay, but I'm sure you'll put those words in my mouth sooner or later.

I still haven't seen you recognize the fact that when faced with death, people resort to tactics that otherwise wouldn't be used. Are you saying taht this doesn't happen? Last time I checked, The Russians didn't quite play by the rules when dealing with German POW's in WW2. The US and UK didn't quite abide the rules when obliterating Dresden. I never said that they were moral or just, but that they would be used, and you had better accept it because it's reality, and I, unlike you, have historical facts to back me up.

This whole debate started off of a post about how the US would cry fowl and be hurt when they are on recieving side of an invasion. I disagreed and said that no country would dare invade the US, becuase to do so would change the tactics used by the US. If you are being invaded, then you don't have to worry about occupying and trying to win over your enemy. You can simply bomb them until they surrender. Which, is NOT against the geneva conventions.  According to you, that statement makes me the devil and no better than Hitler and Stalin. I fail to see your comparison.


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First if you read my first sentence(that is at the top) of that posting I did say that you're right about me assuming your preference on tactics and war.  I also said there is no better way to kill people which is kinda your point and mine.

I will tell you where we differ.  You see history as immovable letters on your textbook that you have to accept it as only reality you are allowed to embrace hence bound to repeat it.  More 'facts' you have, you can repeat it more accurate.  I see history as a version of current victor's propagenda that constantly changes that if we change the 'reality' for the sake of the Weak and the Poor, which are the most of the people in the world today, we don't have to repeat it and actually make it better for more.  That was my comment about 'unable to think for yourself'.  If immature sexual insults are all you got out of it because that is all you can read, which proves my point.

And I wouldn't be too high on your historic 'facts' either if I were you, you haven't said anything I didn't know by 5th grade, and then I started to having pubic hairs, woops, I did it again.  I'm so sorry 



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Guys, stick to the topic and keep the personal insults down. I'm about to watch the Apprentice on TV and that should be enough humiliation for one night.
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Where did you get the Genesis with Peter Gabriel picture?  So cool!
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